Steve Jackson Games Forums - Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.

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Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phiwum (Post 2519202)

[1] The discussion of trampling doesn't mention a +4 to trample a (necessarily) prone human. I can't recall whether I usually use that +4 or not. I guess it applies.

See last paragraph in the Trampling section (ITL 127), "A figure does not get a +4 DX when attempting to trample..."

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip (Post 2519205)

Yes, I agree it is my understanding ;-) that rats in human's hex is analogous to humans in a giant's hex.

True that rat and nuisance creatures in HTH with you are not really in HTH, in that they do not get the DX +4. It is simply how they must be to attack. Notice in ITL 100 the paragraph about their DX 10 means just rolling 1 die each for their attacks. So, not only no DX +4, but also no chance at a critical success.

Because it is not really HTH, the person with the rats on him/her is not prone. If they were prone for whatever reason I would be inclined not to give them a stomp/trample.

Regarding how rats enter a hex, there is disagreement here amoungst some of us. I use the HTH rules. I know another GM says he likes them to just let them run onto figures without stopping to be engaged. I think both methods are valid as the rules are not clear. Choose one and stay consistant.

BTW, the rat rules (and spider rules) are and adaptation of the rules to handle spiders from the original Death Test. In DT, the rules are different but have much in common with the ITL small nuisance creature rules. In DT, you can get as many as 12 spiders in your hex (that is all the spiders from the room). So, that is where I extrapolate that while Legacy ITL limits 2 rats per hex, that more are allowed when on a figure. That and HTH rules (which I know is not a perfect fit), also allows for unlimited figures in a HTH hex.

As far as whether Stomping (Trample?) gets a DX +4 with in hex rats, that is a GM call. The write up in the rats section (ITL 100) is not clear, but if you think Stomping is the exact equivalent to Trampling (ITL 126-7), then the figure does not get DX +4 while stomping. Stomping adjacent hex never gets a DX +4, the only question is if in-hex-stomping does.

BTW, to Shostak's point: I also ignore the limit of 2 rats per hex. I think this was a change in Legacy (at least I don't recall it from before), and so I instead limit small nuisance creatures to 5 per hex. I think it is more realistic, and since I do force them to use the HTH initiation, 2 per hex would be too limiting for the rats.

A couple of points: Rats shouldn't get the +4 DX for being in HTH because there isn't really any such bonus. The bonus is for attacking a person who's prone and in "normal" HTH, your opponent is prone. When a human attacks an ogre in HTH (from below), he doesn't get the +4 DX either, because the ogre isn't prone.

I used to up the stacking limit too, but the suggestion in the Bestiary that rats can attack from an adjacent hex allows one to go to the "official" stacking limit and still have things work out well -- I think. We'll see next time I have a swarm. (My current interpretation is in this post.)

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip (Post 2519206)

See last paragraph in the Trampling section (ITL 127), "A figure does not get a +4 DX when attempting to trample..."

Thanks very much for pointing that out.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2519194)

Note that the human is in HTH, but the giant is using normal attacks and trampling. The same applies for human vs rat.

Am I reading between the lines here, or is the implied gist of this simply that the human with rats in it's hex could (like the giant who would have both a regular attack and a trample in the analogous situation) kill up to 2 rats per turn?

I've always allowed one human to kill 2 rats per turn, but here I may be in the minority? Of course this for me is what makes the new 2 rats/hex limit seem unacceptable, since both rats would normally die before even getting in a single nibble.

[Thank goodness I proofread this before posting because I'd accidentally typed "kiss up to 2 rats per turn", and I wouldn't want anyone to have seen that distasteful mistake!]

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck (Post 2519239)

Yes, one with a regular attack and one by trampling.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck (Post 2519239)

[Thank goodness I proofread this before posting because I'd accidentally typed "kiss up to 2 rats per turn", and I wouldn't want anyone to have seen that distasteful mistake!]

LOL!

Now I am trying to create a new rat monster that can only be dispatched by kissing... and exactly how will the player character figure that out? Never mind.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.

I wonder if anyone has ever actually used wasps from ITL. Depending on how one plays swarms, a character could be attacked by, say, 6 (or whatever the stacking limit is) or even 14 (using the Bestiary rules for rats stacking two high and attacking from adjacent or same hex). It's -4 adjDX to hit a wasp and one can't stomp a wasp. Most important, a failed 3/ST save increases the damage to 2 to 7 hits.

The Bestiary has nerfed the poison to 1 extra hit and it's not clear whether the rat swarm rules apply. It also makes the to-hit roll -5 adjDX instead of -4. I think that these are more like earth wasps than ITL wasps, so a much higher stacking (higher than two) of wasps could be allowed, but they have to attack from the same hex.

The Bestiary's vampire bats use the same rules as rats.

Small, venomous spiders are not like those in ITL. They must penetrate armor in order to bite (failed 3/DX roll for the target), which raises questions about how a fighter is supposed to kill spiders that have gotten under his armor. There's no explicit stacking rules for spiders either, but I suppose that the stacking allowed is close to infinite. Anyway, it doesn't seem like these critters should really be represented by a counter at all, but just be a swarm in an area of the map. I'll have to think about this.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.

I'll let you know how I play these so maybe that will help.

Bats, Rats, Spiders and Wasps: these are the ST 1 nuisance creatures and I play them the same, in general. Note, I use ITL, not the bestiary.

All of them: No stacking limit when on someone, otherwise I keep it to 5.

All of them: 1 hit kills them, no roll for damage even if the attack has a potential for zero damage. I let double or triple damage take out more than 1. I know this is not in the rules but as long as there are more than 1 in the hex that you are attacking I allow this.

All of them need to get on you to attack. I use HTH initiation rules for this, but since HTH initiation allows flying things to land on you (like onto your rear), they are not stopped by engagement.

Poison damage (from spiders and wasps), like bite damage, is treated as a single bite. That is, if 1 wasp or 5 wasps bites got through your armor, you still only roll 1d6 for poison.

Flying ones cannot be stomped.

DX penalty for flying is used until they are on someone's hex. At this point they are not flying but on the person (but also not on the ground).

DX +4 for attacks vs critters in your hex. Attacking critters on a friend using a melee attack that miss will require a roll to miss your friend, AFTER all foes have been missed (standard HTH rule). Missile attacks on critters on a friend are completely random who gets hit (standard HTH rule).

I do allow figures with critters on them to move about but the critters stay with them (going for a ride). This can be used to run through a fire.

Basically I lean on the HTH rules for most of it. I hope this helps. If you do it differently that is good too. These rules need judgement calls to fill the gaps.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.

Thanks, Axly.

Wasps sound really deadly with these rules. As you say, they can easily enter a hex and try to initiate HTH and 4/5 will succeed (I'm assuming that they get the "entering from the rear" benefit, else it's 2/3). Half of those hit. With no maximum stacking for swarmies in HTH, that could be a bad afternoon.

But the no-stacking limit for those that are on the figure is pretty cool. It makes a lot of sense for wasps in particular.

And while I'm not sure I'll use it, the roll to enter HTH is sort of cinematic, with the beleaguered fighter trying to slow the tide of the swarm climbing onto him. If you'll just add that anyone covered with 12 rats falls prone, so that the rest of the horde can join the feast, it would be appropriately creepy.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.

The anti-wasp wizard has the Fire spell, base DX 13, and leather armor.