Unarmed Combat Again
 

Unarmed Combat talents are a bit illogical.

You pay 4DX for 1 more damage at UC 1, completely worthless.
Then at UC2, you pay 2DX for doing 1 more damage which is expensive but kind of an ok option.
And then at UC3, You pay 1DX for 0.5 more damage. This is not an improvement over UC2, it is slightly worse.
And at UC4 you pay 0DX for 1 more damage. Uhh, why even discussing Fist if Kick is always better?
And at UC5 you either do 2 fist attacks at no penalty for -1dmg
Or one fist attack for normal damage. Again, this option will never be used.
Or kick for +1 damage at no DX penalty.

At UC 1, 2 and 3 kick is not an option it is too expensive. At UC 4 it is a free +1 damage and will always be used. And at UC5 double punch will always be better except against very armored opponents.

It would be better if the progression looked like this:
UC1 Fist +1dmg, HtH+2dmg, Kick +3dmg at -4DX.
UC2 Fist +2dmg, HtH+3dmg, Kick (+5 OR +1d6+1) dmg at -4DX.
UC3 Fist +3dmg, HtH+4dmg, Kick (+7 OR +2d6) dmg at -4DX.
UC4 Fist +1d6 dmg, HtH +1d6+1 dmg, Kick (+9 OR +2d6+2) dmg at -4DX.
UC5 Fist +1d6+1, Double Fist +1d6, HtH+1d6+2dmg, Kick (+11 OR +3d6) dmg at -4DX.

The base would be the ST table straight up. The bonus (+1) for HTH fighting is included above.
Brawling would add +1dmg across the board when fighting dirty - but people will notice the groin kicks and eye gouging.

Kick would be the shrewd version of UC. And you add the kick damage on top, instead of replacing fist damage.

It is a question of a rule interpretation. Wording between UC I and UC II, differs. One says "...compared to a bare hand attack", and the other says "...compared to your bare hand attack." One refers to a basic non-UC bare-handed attack, the other to your fist-boosted barehand attack. If we go with "your", then the DX penalty for "shrewd" kicking must remain at 4, it can not become free or no one would ever punch. So there is a small glitch in editing here, and this has been discussed before on forums. This is not RAW, and most likely not RAI. But it is the smallest adjustment I can think of that makes UC talents logical, competitive, and balanced.

This would put martial artists closer to weapon expertise and mastery.

A mastery shrewd attack by an ST 9 Fencer would do 2d6+4 at DX-3
A UC 5, ST 9 fighter would do 4d6-3 at DX-4, or two attacks at 2d6-3 each, or 2d6-1 in HtH.
(The fencer would still have an advantage with fine and magic weapons, and only -3 for Shrewd.) A swords master would have a heavier sword due to ST prerequisites for high UC talents, one can not compare damage with a rapier only. But the DX penalty for a shrewd Shortsword attack would be -4.

A mastery shrewd attack by an ST 15 fighter swinging a battle axe would be: 4d6+4 at DX-4
A UC 5, ST 15 fighter would do 4d6 at DX-4 (or two attacks at 2d6 each, or 2d6+2 in HtH).
(The master would still have an advantage with fine and magic weapons, and raw damage since ST for weapons scales better than the ST table. But UC specialists get a couple of other advantages and the HtH and double attack option.)

Non-shrewd damage would also be comparable:
ST 9, Master 1d6+2 vs. 2d6-2 (1 extra with brawling)

ST 11 is a better comparison due to prereqs. Then it would be 2d6+1 vs 2d6-1 or 2d6 with Brawling.

ST 15, Master 3d6+2 vs. 2 attacks for 2d6 (1 extra with brawling) against 2.5 average armor has the same base dmg, so very comparable

Across the board it would be balanced, but weapons would still be strictly better for damage, and UC has other advantages. UC would, at least, be competitive as a normal way of fighting, and they would have the HtH option as a valid option.

I have no problem with monks being almost as good as weapon wielders in melee, and way better in HtH. Realistic, probably not, but this is fantasy and now they are not a laughing stock on the battlefield.

Re: Unarmed Combat Again
 

Your math is solid as usual and I agree with you that the progression of modifiers and damage options for UC I to V is incongruent at best.

However the ability to defend (let alone attack) without a weapon in hand is a very heavy advantage imho and as such I don't see as big of a need to "match" other teir 3 weapon talents.
Add in the built in eyes behind + damage absorption (living chainmail at UC-V) and the martial artist is definitely overpowering the "mastery" talents.
Basically, what I am saying is giving them equal or comparative damage potential to weapon users seems unnecessary. It would seem to be ok with 1 die less or more even?

Is it worth considering a more unique overhaul of the effects?
Maybe the bare handed damage caps out at +2 damage by ST, and the kick mimics a shrewd blow as you have proposed. But then at UC III and above you start giving bonus to DX for "aimed shot" attacks only = UC-III is +2DX, UC-IV is +4DX, UC-V is +6DX (Your inferior bare hand damage can still be of effect here), better throw/shield rush (I'm talking 4/ST minimum effects or they are too weak imho).

Personally I have always thought the UC levels are the perfect place to insert the talent tree options we all often talk about for weapon expertise etc.
You stop at UC-III and then just write in all the UC-IV and V special abilities as individual talents and have UC-III as a prerequisite.
Ex. IQ-13 Eyes behind (2) prereq. UC-III, DX 13 or more. Character treats sides as rear and rear as side.
IQ-14 Master Eyes Behind (1) prereq Eyes behind, DX 14 or more. Character treats all hexes as front.
IQ-13 Deflections (1) prereq UC-III, DX 13 or more. Attackers have a -1 DX to hit you. This talent may be bought/learned up to three time (like missile weapons)
There's hits blocked, double strikes, nerve strikes that could be listed, Etc Etc Etc This list could get pretty long but would definitely give martial artists a different skin than the "master xxx" weapons talents and be balanced with them.

Re: Unarmed Combat Again
 

Can UC-III take a defend option?
The big thing is to combine UC-III with a very fine dagger expert who stabs in the eyes all these people who are suddenly just lying around.

Re: Unarmed Combat Again
 

I agree with the sentiment Timm, but it would be a bigger change to stop at UC 3 and then let the rest be separate abilities.

I just suggested a minor change, that have a big impact.

And you are right in that some of the extra abilities you get from UC are quite good, and being able to fight even when you have been disarmed is strong.

But you are a little wrong when you say the damage is comparable. UC is still behind in damage, and it is behind by that 1die you talked about at ST 15, UC V level and shrewd. So I feel the advantages balance well against weapons' higher damage.

So let's assume that it is balanced. The second balancing factor is fine weapons, magical weapons, and the no-armor problem. This is a huge deal in some games and in other games, it's not such a big deal. This is balanced with the fact that weapons in general should be better than knuckles, and they are.

How much realism you specifically want is hard to quantify in generic rules, so I made UC strong enough to be your fighting style, but not so strong that it will outshine or overshadow weapon masters. It is a compromise. If you want UC to be as good or better than weapon fighting styles, you need to buff UC even more, and if you want realism you will have to stop at UC 2 maybe.

But this suggestion is mainly for those who want the monk archetype in their TFT games to be a valid choice.

Re: Unarmed Combat Again
 

I’d advocate that UC be renamed to Hand Combat and those with it be allowed to use it even when holding a weapon. Why having a sword in hand would prevent anyone from kicking or punching with a free hand or be less aware of side hexes because of the weapon is beyond me.

Re: Unarmed Combat Again
 

I agree with your intent of creating a relative equal archetype.
The last sentence of your original post sums up things and I agree 100%.

The only non-quantifiable factor is the actual use of weapons.
So the balance there becomes a very opinionated one of how you value "I never need a weapon" to "I can't do anything without a weapon". Versus the "I can't enchant or "fine" tune my fists" against "I can potentially wield Excalibur for +7..." We could probably hack out a general agreement of how much combat value this "should" represent purely for game balance, but for fantasy sakes I am not sure it would ever be free of contextual bias.

You should post a clean version of your revisional damage and effects as I think simple changes like those fit better into RAW.

Re: Unarmed Combat Again
 

A cleaner version would be nice for sure.
But most of the values are taken as is, just written out as examples.

As it stands, non-shrewd attacks at low ST (since the bad scaling hasn't come in as much yet at low ST) give very comparable damage, but even a +1 or +2 from a very fine ST9 weapon, balances towards weapons by a lot.

At higher ST the difference is bigger so UC masters really need to do shrewd to keep up. And even then they are almost a die behind, and that is without magic or finely crafted weapons. So there is still a lot of balancing for side hexes as front hexes and always available weaponry.

But let's be honest, how often has your character ended up in a fight after first having been disarmed? I say it happens way less than 10% of the time. So is that advantage worth more than +1 or +2 damage? I am sure that if the whole party were ninja UC experts it would happen more often, but in most campaigns, it might happen once as part of the plot and maybe one more optional tavern brawl where people have weapons but choose not to use them. It is like Joursting, dragon slaying, or archery competitions. It might happen, but not that often.

Re: Unarmed Combat Again
 

OK you inspired me to list out my theory of a talent tree like UC mod.
I both love and hate this....
I wonder if the separated abilities/talents would open up the builds for different styles/flavors (kung-fu vs Judo) or the eclectic cross class fighter?
Anyone bored enough could show me an example of any possible OP builds with these or just the broken over worded cost of the UC master.

IQ 12 FOCUS I (1) Prerequisite UC II and DX 12 or more. Through intense training and meditative balancing of mind and body you gain the ability to make more direct critical strikes. +2 DX bonus when doing an aimed shot as per "other weapons" p. 121.

IQ 13 FOCUS II (1) Prerequisite Focus I and DX 13. Through years of training.... +4 DX bonus with aimed shots

IQ 14 FOCUS III (1) Prerequisite Focus II and DX 14 blah blah... +6 DX bonus with aimed shot.

IQ 12 Death Strike I (1) Prerequisite UC II, DX 12. Successful training to harden your body and mind to become a deadly weapon. +3 dam. with barehanded or HTH strikes.
IQ 13 Death Strike II (1) Prerequisite Death Strike I, DX 13. More training more hardening. 1d6 xtra dam. with barehanded or HTH strikes.
IQ 14 Death Strike III (1) Prerequisite Death Strike II, DX 14. Even MORE training... bonus goes to 1d6+1 damage.

IQ 12 Kick (1) Prerequisite UC II. Your feet and legs are now deadly weapons. You may choose to kick instead of a normal attack. This kick uses all the rules for a pole armed charge attack or set vs. charge. Whether charging in with a flying kick or suddenly striking at a charging enemy with a deadly crane style kick they will strike first over any non UC trained or pole weaponed armed enemies. Damage is equal to your bare handed (includes any bonuses from UC or Death Strike etc.) +1d6 extra.
IQ 14 Kick II (1) Prerequisite Kick, DX 14, ST 12. Knees, overhead back kicks and thunderous roundhouses, you have mastered them all. You strike first outside of the normal DX order even without a charge or set for charge. You also still gain the +1d6 extra damage.

IQ 12 Throw(1) Prerequisite UC II. Skilled at using leverage and full body moves to throw and knock down any opponent. Instead of a normal attack the player made attempt to throw there opponent. No DX roll required for the action but the target must roll 4/ST to avoid falling down in their hex. This is a 3/ST roll if the target's ST is 2 or more above the throwers ST. If the target falls they take 1 hit of damage regardless of any armor.

IQ 13 Throw II(1) Prerequisite Throw, DX 13. Same as Throw but only a target that is 4 or more greater in ST rolls 3/ST save, and any fall results in 2 hits of damage regardless of armor.

IQ 14 Throw III(1) Prerequisite Throw II. As Throw II but any successful knockdown allows you to choose any of your 6 adjacent hexes, including your own, to place the target enemy into. If the hex contains another figure that person must make a 4/DX save to dodge the incoming body and remain standing in their hex, otherwise both are prone on the ground in the same hex. If you choose to throw your opponent into your own hex you may choose to remain standing or automatically (no roll for dagger etc.) go into HTH with them.

IQ 12 Deflect(1) Prerequisite UC II, DX 12. Fast hands and redirection techniques allows you to avoid and minimize damage. All attacks against you from your front hexes are at a -2 DX and -2 damage.

IQ 13 Deflect II(1) Prerequisite Deflect, DX 13. As Deflect I and anytime you choose the defend option any attack (even thrown or missiles) must roll 5d6 to hit.

IQ 14 Fast Attack(1) Prerequisite UC II, DX 14. This high level of training has given you lightning speed to attack multiple times at one or more enemies. You may strike any foe twice with one action, (roll separately for each attack) or attack 2 different targets.

IQ 14 Fury Blows(1) Prerequisite UC II, Fast Attack. Using your fine-tuned body memory, you may choose to unleash a whirlwind of strikes all around instead of using any other attack. The Fury Blows will roll an attack on every target that is engaged to any of your front hexes.

IQ 14 Acute Awareness(1) Prerequisite UC II, DX 14. Your ability to sense and strike in almost any direction changes all your side hexes into front hexes and your rear hex to a side hex.

IQ 14 Acute Awareness II(1) Prerequisite Acute Awareness, Deflect II. Your sense of combat awareness is infallible. All your hexes are considered front hexes. If you choose the defend option opponents must roll 6d6 to hit you.

Re: Unarmed Combat Again
 

Tim, how do you rewrite or clarify UC 1 and UC 2?
They are a little bit wonky too.

You removed UC 3-5 completely, right?

Otherwise, I like it. Maybe with a slightly lower DX and IQ minimum for some of them, and higher for others, to spread them out more. Now everything happens between 12 and 14 which is a very narrow IQ span, and almost the same for DX.

Re: Unarmed Combat Again
 

My basic premise/thought for UC I & II is they represent the basic soldiery hand to hand techniques used in most militaries and or the Kung-Fu of a middle belt type. I presumed they could just stay as is, even with the wonk, or just strip the kick and evade from both and make them straight + barehanded bonuses.
Honestly UC II seems to be the "Same damage as a dagger, competent street fighter for 2 IQ" and only PCs focused on the martial arts trope go beyond those levels due to the investment needed.

And yes UC 3-5 have basically been pulled apart into their individual components. This is why you see the narrow IQ and DX requirements, which of course could be broadened for flavor and such but as is match the RAW build requirements (trying not to break any RAW "balance" that was intended).

This type of approach could be taken to Missile Weapons and other Mastery class talents. I always liked the discussions on choosing +1 dam over +1 DX with bow and opening up other, smaller, build ups of talents that of course lead up to a build of the shrewd blow, untouchable death machine weapon masters.
The downside of course is the GURPS effect as it all becomes more intricate and wordy.