Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

If you face the dual rapier (or worse yet dual saber) fencer under the rules as written don't panic, because their extraordinary abilities have a very small range band.
By ITL 117 (and Hexagram) defend works against melee (but not HTH) physical attacks, thrown weapons, and polearm jabs through their front hexes and unlike high level Unarmed Combat talents they get no extension of these front hexes. Even their two weapon options only apply against the same classes of attacks. So any of the following attacks can negate their defenses. Options marked with an * would have reduced effect against a Shield Expertise user (which is almost always a better use of the off-hand, that or a dagger.)

1. Attack them from side or rear. (Or knock them over somehow and make them "face rear" in all directions.)
2. Attack them in HTH. (Sword and dagger is a classic for a reason.)
3. * Attack them with a missile spell or missile weapon like a bow or thrown (or slung) rock and not a thrown weapon like a spear thrower, bola, or lasso. (If not engaged the Fencer could dodge all of these, but gets no special bonus (as the Shield Expert would) in dodging.)
4. Use the occult attack of a wizard's staff, or any other Special or Thrown spell.
5. Make their current hex very uncomfortable with a Fire spell or a molotail.

What else would you suggest?

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

There is a RAW interpretation that doesn't allow Fencer talent to use two sabers or a saber/rapier combo. It allows for two rapiers or a saber and a main gauche. If they dump the IQ points for Sword Expertise and Two Weapons Talents, they can have any two swords in use that their ST will allow.

Reference, (ITL, p. 41, Two Weapons Talent):
"If you are a Fencer (p. 40), you automatically have this talent – but you must use either two rapiers, or a rapier and main-gauche, as your two weapons, since these are the two-weapon techniques taught to fencers. If you are not using the Fencer talent and its bonuses, you may fight with any two weapons that you have the ST to use."

Since it doesn't specifically call out a two sword combo with sabers, I have seen where the saber/saber or the saber/rapier combo is not allowed. In my game, I allow these combos for a fencer. To me, the omission of the combo in the text doesn't exclude it for use since the fencer talent allows for sabers to be wielded.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

6. "Run Awayyyy!!!" That guy is a Cuisinart, a veritable weed whacker on steroids lets just find out where he lives and poison him....
(sorry for the less serious interjection to this topic)

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

Fill his hex with Shadow. -6 DX for attacks out, -4 DX for attacks in. Net gain of +2 for the people against the fencer.
Trip spell followed by #1.
Image/Illusion/Summon to give him more targets to deal with.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

My reasoning that a physical shield provides no protection against any level of occult attack is that by ITL 108 it offers no protection against thrown spells, just missile spells.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

"There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved through a suitable application of high explosives."

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

Typically fencers are lightly armored since they need a moderately high DX and a higher than average IQ, leaving few points to spare. So, shoot him with arrows. It won't take many.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

I don't see on p. 108 where it states that "a physical shield provides no protection against any level of occult attack". Staff 3 zaps and above bypass armor. However, I don't see where Staff 1 and 2 zaps bypass shields provided that the facing allows it.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

ITL 108: "Shields protect against physical or missile-spell attacks"
So only those two categories of spells.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

That quote indeed says two things, but only one of those things is a category of spells. The proper reading is:

"Shields protect against (1) physical attacks and (2) missile-spell attacks."

"Physical" is not a spell category, "missile-spell" is.

I would still count getting clubbed or jabbed as a "physical" attack, not a spell casting of any category, even if the hand weapon was a Staff (and even though Legacy has turned a Staff into a glorified cattle-prod). So a shield would still count.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

Yes, interpreting the rules to mean that all staff occult zaps bypass shields is clearly a stretch.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

Shields protect against illusions of fire elementals (melee, not HTH attack), but not illusions of fire hexes, both of which are (for this game) physical attacks. The other category of spells they protect against are the missile spells. Hence no protection against thrown or special spells such as Blast (ITL 23), while cloth armor would offer some protection against all of the above (except for Staff III+ occult attack, or other special exceptions such as the Death spell).

Q: Evil Halfling Wizard (redundant I know), slings an 8d explosive gem into the hex of one knight who is in a front hex of another knight. (both facing this obvious threat of course.) Do their shields help protect against this "physical attack"?

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

None of that suggests that Staff I and Staff II occult attacks bypass shields.

Yes, of course it would.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

Let's be cautious about being overly literal in this interpretation, however. Shields protect because they intercept or interrupt directed force or energy. Thus, I would argue that a shield would absolutely be effective against BLAST, though perhaps only partially. The question of a shield's effectiveness vs. the 'occult blast' (which isn't really relevant to the original topic, TBH) is a bit less clear, but I still think common sense would say that putting an object in between the wizard and their target should provide the latter with some measure of protection.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

In a previous thread (from me) I do beleive someone pointed out that the Staff's Occult is essentially a thrown spell from p.140 (and the staff is essentially a Magic Item p.148 which the holder employs to 'throw' the spell). The spell is a hit or miss and no DX penalty for intevening figures.

I am trying to find other thrown spells that do damage directly, not those which give the recipient an ability to do damage like Breath Fire or Hammer Touch.

With that I would agree with HCOBB that shields do not provide defense against the Occult attack when reading p.108 "Shileds protect against physical or missile-spell attacks..."

But considering that the Fencing weapons do 2-1 damage (saber with the +1 bonus), wouldn't just wearing heavier armor tend to reduce damage quite a bit? I might be missing the point of the discussion though.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

Hermina, Human, age 20
ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11, MA 10
Talents include: Fencer, Knife, Miner (mundane), Physicker, Shield Expertise, Tactics
Language: Common
Weapon: Fine rapier (1d+2), dagger (1d-1)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-3)
Special Ability/Weakness:
Armor: Small shield stops 2 hits, -2 to be hit
Equipment: middle class clothing, Labyrinth kit, Physicker’s kit, backpack, belt pouch, waterskin, 2 healing potions, $82 in coin.

28.5 pounds of encumbrance, swimming at -5 DX, can pick up only another 7.5 pounds before slowing down.

The main disadvantage of this configuration is that the small shield is made out of lead so really slows you down. (Also the memory points are extremely tight.)


Aichmira, Human, age 20
ST 8, DX 12, IQ 12, MA 10
Talents include: Acrobatics, Alertness, Naturalist, Tactics, Unarmed Combat III, Woodsman
Language: Common
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-1)
Armor: UC III stops 2 hits, -2 to be hit
Equipment: Middle class clothing, backpack, Labyrinth kit, Brand, Belt pouch, waterskin, 5 healing potions, $72 in coins

Here we see almost the same level of defense, with a 50/50 chance of sweeping the fencer off her feet.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

I do NOT regard the staff's occult strike as a thrown spell or, indeed, any sort of spell at all. It is called an "attack" in the description. It is never called a spell, much less a thrown spell.

It's either a special kind of attack or a special kind of spell. I regard it as the former, since that's consistent with the text -- though, of course, we shouldn't read everything in ITL too literally, so if some other GM wants to call it a thrown spell, so be it.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

A simple but often overlooked approach is to simply have enough armor protection that a rapier, even with the damage bonus and shrewd thrust, the overall expected value on each attack isn't really a show stopper. At the sort of experience levels where a fencer has a great DX, maybe high enough ST to use sabers, etc. (i.e., the kind of fencer that fencing advocates like to talk about), their opponent could have so much armor that even 2d+1 will likely as not do nothing. The starting fencer (9/12/11) is a fun character to play, but mostly misses their shrewd thrusts; also, their defensive benefits are cool, but you have to bring something to the table besides a good defense if you want to win a fight.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

The counter to plate and tower shield is to drop the fencer and just bring the dagger expert to the party.

Smilebringer, Goblin, age 20
ST 6, DX 15, IQ 11, MA 10
Talents include: Acrobatics, Alertness, Dagger Expertise, Thrown Weapons
Languages: Common, Goblin
Weapon: 2 very fine daggers (1d+2), several ordinary daggers (1d)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-4)

After two turns of waiting for an opening behind the uber defend has adjDX 15+2-6 = 11 or less to stab an eyeball.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

I'm not sure how that responds to Lars's point. You asked for ways to beat a fencer. He mentioned that armor is a good way, so you suggest that we should forget the fencer and think about puny dagger experts.

It just somehow doesn't seem particularly on point.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

If you have rapier and main gauche you also get the anti-armor effect from Fencer itself. But that's another strike against dual rapiers. The only thing that keeps that from being a thing is that the main gauche rules are currently clarified like mud.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

Slaying the dual fencer:

I mentioned archery. Seriously, any standard beginning archer is a major threat to dual fencers as none of their defenses help against missile weapons and they have very low ST and they have low armor (to keep their DX high). Nothing special, just pick your favorite missile weapon build.

Same can be done with wizards. A beginning goblin/elf (since we seem to pick goblins) wizard with DX 15 and Sleep spell can put down the fencer at range or adjacent. Then dispatch the defenseless sleeper. No dodging or defending will avoid a thrown spell.

Lots of other wizards can be a pain for fencers. As long as the wizard's DX is higher than the fencer, it gets a chance to win before the fencer may strike.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

I'm not following. I think you're using the thrown weapons rule in order to allow the dagger/main gauche to bypass armor, but that's only for thrown daggers. Is the fencer planning to throw his main gauche? Left handed?

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

ITL 120: "Aimed shots may be made by any attacker. Regular, bare-handed or HTH, missile or thrown weapon, or even missile-spell attacks may be aimed"

I.e. don't let a dagger expert get into HTH. (As noted in the historical medieval combat manuals.)

But by ITL 110 the Main-Gauche isn't a thrown weapon. (Making Fencer slightly less dangerous.)

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

But I don't think a wielded dagger can bypass armor on an aimed shot. The head shot for daggers specifies thrown daggers.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

I read it as a restriction on the range for the thrown attacks that does not override the "HTH" comment above.
It's the crossbow snipers who take the head shots from 100 yards out.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

As I read it on p.120 for Aimed Shots is that all from the list of "Regular, bare-handed, or HTH, missile or throw weapons or even missile-spell attacks" may be aimed.

Then the rest is description for the specifiics and one would need to find the condition.

Bolo and lasso have their own rules.

Throwing a dagger or shaken or using a whip has a set of rules.

Then the rest of the situations use the last set of rules.

GM needs to point out that a dagger thrown at the head from behind would not have a chance of bypassing armor as the faceguard would be facing the front hexes.

A dagger in HTH would follow the 2 hits causing a -2 DX and 5 hits stuns.

But a dagger thrown would do the double damage. One or the other.

In our gaming groups years ago, we had a guy who had a Halflings maxed on DX (with the +3 DX for msl and thrown wpns, plus the +1 damage, plus having the Thrown Weapons talent) taking others easily down in arena combat.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

I don't understand your reading.

It is explicitly about thrown daggers (and sha-ken and whips). I don't really see any suggestion that in HTH, a dagger can bypass armor at a DX -6 penalty.

If that text supports your reading that it applies in HTH, it must equally support the reading that it applies in normal melee too, but then a dagger has gotten suddenly a lot better. Your ST 6 character with a high enough DX can get 2x1d-1 damage and bypass armor. Sure, DX -6 is a big penalty, but that's a pretty big benefit, too.

(It seems to me, Henry, that where we differ on the reading of the rules, your interpretation somehow advantages ST 6 characters -- wizards, mostly. Funny.)

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

The literal reading of the rules says this specific tactic (dagger that bypasses armor) only works for a thrown attack. It also says nothing about toughness (so against an experienced, armor point centered foe) your damage might really be (1d-1)x2 - 2 = expected value on a success of 3 points of damage. Or, given the DX penalty, an expected value for the action of around 1-2 points. So, fine, but also whatever.

What do people reckon about shield protection for this rule? What's the argument for or against 'bypassing' it?

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

Shields count as armor by my reckoning. Generally speaking, I don’t like the idea of weapons bypassing armor. The guy wearing the armor pays a double cost in the form of DX and MA penalties. He should get something for it.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

So Staff III kinda pisses you off?

I can see your point. I don't mind the thrown dagger/sha-ken exception. It's never even come up in my game.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

So far as combat mechanics go, the staff zaps have similarities to thrown daggers and ska-ken.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

Wizard stands in second rank doing staff zaps and dagger tosses?

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

I'm talking about small damage weapons with a tendency to get past armor.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

No. I've no issue with magical attacks that bypass armor.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

The popularity of men at arms carrying and training to use in grappling daggers exactly corresponds with the increase in personal armor. Our 3oz throwing knife is a lot less sturdy than the historical anti-armor daggers however.