Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

If you have rapier and main gauche you also get the anti-armor effect from Fencer itself. But that's another strike against dual rapiers. The only thing that keeps that from being a thing is that the main gauche rules are currently clarified like mud.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

Slaying the dual fencer:

I mentioned archery. Seriously, any standard beginning archer is a major threat to dual fencers as none of their defenses help against missile weapons and they have very low ST and they have low armor (to keep their DX high). Nothing special, just pick your favorite missile weapon build.

Same can be done with wizards. A beginning goblin/elf (since we seem to pick goblins) wizard with DX 15 and Sleep spell can put down the fencer at range or adjacent. Then dispatch the defenseless sleeper. No dodging or defending will avoid a thrown spell.

Lots of other wizards can be a pain for fencers. As long as the wizard's DX is higher than the fencer, it gets a chance to win before the fencer may strike.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

I'm not following. I think you're using the thrown weapons rule in order to allow the dagger/main gauche to bypass armor, but that's only for thrown daggers. Is the fencer planning to throw his main gauche? Left handed?

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

ITL 120: "Aimed shots may be made by any attacker. Regular, bare-handed or HTH, missile or thrown weapon, or even missile-spell attacks may be aimed"

I.e. don't let a dagger expert get into HTH. (As noted in the historical medieval combat manuals.)

But by ITL 110 the Main-Gauche isn't a thrown weapon. (Making Fencer slightly less dangerous.)

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

But I don't think a wielded dagger can bypass armor on an aimed shot. The head shot for daggers specifies thrown daggers.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

I read it as a restriction on the range for the thrown attacks that does not override the "HTH" comment above.
It's the crossbow snipers who take the head shots from 100 yards out.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

As I read it on p.120 for Aimed Shots is that all from the list of "Regular, bare-handed, or HTH, missile or throw weapons or even missile-spell attacks" may be aimed.

Then the rest is description for the specifiics and one would need to find the condition.

Bolo and lasso have their own rules.

Throwing a dagger or shaken or using a whip has a set of rules.

Then the rest of the situations use the last set of rules.

GM needs to point out that a dagger thrown at the head from behind would not have a chance of bypassing armor as the faceguard would be facing the front hexes.

A dagger in HTH would follow the 2 hits causing a -2 DX and 5 hits stuns.

But a dagger thrown would do the double damage. One or the other.

In our gaming groups years ago, we had a guy who had a Halflings maxed on DX (with the +3 DX for msl and thrown wpns, plus the +1 damage, plus having the Thrown Weapons talent) taking others easily down in arena combat.

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

I don't understand your reading.

It is explicitly about thrown daggers (and sha-ken and whips). I don't really see any suggestion that in HTH, a dagger can bypass armor at a DX -6 penalty.

If that text supports your reading that it applies in HTH, it must equally support the reading that it applies in normal melee too, but then a dagger has gotten suddenly a lot better. Your ST 6 character with a high enough DX can get 2x1d-1 damage and bypass armor. Sure, DX -6 is a big penalty, but that's a pretty big benefit, too.

(It seems to me, Henry, that where we differ on the reading of the rules, your interpretation somehow advantages ST 6 characters -- wizards, mostly. Funny.)

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

The literal reading of the rules says this specific tactic (dagger that bypasses armor) only works for a thrown attack. It also says nothing about toughness (so against an experienced, armor point centered foe) your damage might really be (1d-1)x2 - 2 = expected value on a success of 3 points of damage. Or, given the DX penalty, an expected value for the action of around 1-2 points. So, fine, but also whatever.

What do people reckon about shield protection for this rule? What's the argument for or against 'bypassing' it?

Re: Countering the dual rapier fencer
 

Shields count as armor by my reckoning. Generally speaking, I don’t like the idea of weapons bypassing armor. The guy wearing the armor pays a double cost in the form of DX and MA penalties. He should get something for it.