Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

In Melee, under "Forcing Retreat" it seems to indicate that you force someone to retreat if you Hit them and don't get Hit in return.

"Hit" seems to indicate "taking damage" not just being Hit [which may result in no damage due to a lousy damage roll or armor, etc], because of this parenthetical statement "...hits taken by the enemy's armor don't count".

My Legacy "In the Labyrinth" book removes that explanatory phrase, and seems to indicate that any Hit [and not being Hit, regardless of damage] allows you to force someone back.

So I'm presently inclined to play "Melee" with you need to do damage to Force a Retreat, and change it later should I use ITL.

But I'm open to the opinion of others better informed!

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

The actual quote from ITL Legacy is this:
I think "put hits" means "wounds" here, so if you don't penetrate the armor, you didn't put hits on the enemy figure.

There is a difference between "put hits" and "hits" in the way I read it. If you make your to-hit roll, then you hit the enemy, but you don't put hits on him unless he actually takes wounds as a result.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

I think that's it, per Melee.
I wonder if they changed it for Legacy ITL.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

In the essay "Retreats Revamped" in Hexagram #4, by Steve Jackson says this in an example, "I have just put a hit on you, and I was unhurt during the turn." This specifically mentions being unhurt as a condition necessary to force a retreat, so we can confidently interpret "put hits" and "inflicted hits" to mean "wound".

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

I concur with phiwum's and Shostak's assessment.

You must wound your opponent and take no damage that same turn for the Forced Retreat option to be available.

As a GM, I've forgotten to remind when this option is available. I thank the OP for discussing it.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

I assume this means ANY DAMAGE to the one forcing a retreat:
Original Attacker Joe makes contact with his Mace on victim Sam and hurts Sam. Then Sam attacks Joe and bangs against Joe's armor and does not penetrate. (Sam is now Forced Retreat bait.). But wait, Edgar takes a shot at Joe and pierces his armor and damages Joe. Joe has received damage this turn, even though it was not from Sam. Does this mean that Joe cannot Force Retreat Sam?

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

Nice catch there! That's important.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

Yes, that is correct. The person forcing the retreat cannot have been wounded that turn.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

I concur with this additional scenario.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

And I concur with this concur. ;-) Seriously.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

I do thank you for your concurrence. When I see points with which I agree, I like to point it out. It also may give new forum members and TFTers clarity that some of the old timers agree on a topic. I don't catch all on the forum for which this is the case so I ask folks NOT to assume that my lack of comment is disagreement.

As a GM, I need to emphasize the availability of the Forced Retreat option when the situation exists.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

Yes! This is easier said than done. Forced retreats don't seem to happen often, and then it become the norm to stop looking for them.

Generally speaking, they make little difference most of the time, with two exceptions where they make a big difference: fighting with polearm and being adjacent to a hazard.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

It can force a disengagement or move them away from another party member that needs the extra protection.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

Another question about Force Retreats.

I don't see where their are any size references with respect to how this option is applied. For example, a PC is fighting a giant. The PC inflicts damage on te giant and doesn't take damage.

Per ITL RAW, the attacking PC could go for Force Retreat even if only one point of damage is inflicted on the giant.

Unless someone can point to other info to help resolve this, a GM can run with what was described above with no acknowledgement of the size difference. However, At this time, I would have to consider two other options. 1. Not allow it for when the target is that much larger than the attacker. 2. Allow it provided that a threshold of damage is met such as 3 points (for being a 3 hex figure compared to a 1 hex figure).

Personally, I'm leaning toward option 2.

Thoughts?

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

RAW as you note doesn't discuss size of attacker vs defender. It seems to depend on if one thinks a small creature could push back a larger one. If you think the situation isn't truly applicable for a one-on-one situation, the rules for engagement might be considered here. Two (or more) one-hex vs a giant when those who damaged the giant didn't get damaged themselves. It might be odd for a one-hex to force a 14-hex dragon to retreat.

Another consideration about it would be how much damage was done like how larger creatures can take more before suffering a -2 DX or be knocked down.

The big thing as a GM, I would not try to pop it one the player(s) right at that moment. Having it drawn up as modifications to RAW and that they be aware of the alterations. As a player, I would be pleased if I could force the giant NPC into an unfavorable position. Though I hear Abominables bounce if they fall off cliffs.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

LOL!

Linking the forced treat to the engagement rules for multi-hex characters Sounds like a sound approach to me.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

While it's true some of the results for many things in this game sometimes seem silly, it can also be a lot of fun coming up with the in-game rationalizations that "explain" them.

Would a giant ever jump back a hex for taking a 1-point hit?

Maybe not all hits feel the same. A 1-point hit might not be any more life-threatening no matter where it lands, but what if by luck it occasionally lands somewhere exceptionally, well, sensitive. I'll leave that up to our collective imaginations.

Fact is, it could happen. One might jump a foot backwards getting a staple in their finger, even though that's nowhere near 10% or even 1% of the damage needed to kill them.

You could say there are a bunch of this type of thing factored into all the TFT rules just by their generalized, less granular nature. Call it design error, or call it sheer genius, whichever you prefer.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

Ever have an angry cat jump in your face? I agree it could happen that one gets off balanced by a small critter.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

I once accidentally stepped on our cat's tail because he quietly walked up behind me. He went into looking like a blurry ball of fur around my lower leg. When I lifted my foot, my leg was scratched up so bad that I had to disinfect and wrap it up in gauss. I took our or two hits of damage on my leg.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

This is brilliant.

The problem with 1 hex figures injuring a multihex figure is that there can be so many more of them. The giant can only strike one of them, is likely to get struck by several. The above is an improvement on the current system of only one needs to strike the giant to drive it back.

I think the above is both brilliant and a reasonable approach. Nice job.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

I concur. Linking for forced retreats to engagement rules for multi-hex characters seems to be a sound approach.

Re: Forcing Retreat in Melee / TFT
 

Tell me about it! Babysitting a friend's dog just 48 hours ago, I got bit twice - on the face! It's a rescue dog with it's own case of PTSD, and I'd been warned he snaps if you are too close when you wake him up. Surely it was less than 1 hit of damage each time - shallow nips once near a lip and then once on an eyebrow - but I was Force Retreated at full MA clear to the bathroom down the hall both times for cold compresses and disinfectant. It all felt much worse than it turned out to be.

Ditto that! Excellent solution!