Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

I would assume that you'd use either Doug's Delvers to Grow or Gurpsland's Dungeon Fantasy on the Cheap to start such, otherwise, use Henchmen maybe...?

If you have, what's your experience?

I'm particularly interested in the following campaigns (but I'm open to others): Warlord of the Accordlands, The Drow War, War of the Burning Sky, and The Enemy Within. If that helps you focus on one thing in such an open-ended question.

The key points are that:
I've not played D&D-ish fantasy since the mid-90s

I've essentially run campaigns that mirrored whatever literature I happened to be reading at that time

I've never run pre-written campaigns before, but I figure I can combine the lack of experience with D&D-ish fantasy & my lack of understanding what people enjoy in it, with pre-written campaigns & hopefully have a successful experience with DFRPG...idk...maybe...

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

I've never run a 1 to 20 campaign specifically but I've run DnDesk games with low starting power level and pulled out DnD modules to use in the game.

General advice:
1. Remember that DnD abilities and GURPS abilities are different GURPS is way more flexible so situations that would be hard in DnD will be easy in GURPS and some of the combat encounters may be much more deadly in GURPS than DnD and in some cases less so.
2. Look at each situation and think about the capabilities of your specific characters when looking at challenges
3. I always use the adventures and challenges as an inspiration instead of just taking it as is.
2. Use Delver's to Go -- Character creation will be much easier
3. Advancement will be very different. While not an exact theory I've found that a first level character in DnD 5th is around 50 to 75 points in GURPS (due to GURPS flexibility this can be very off) the beginning Dungeon Fantasy Character is probably 4th or 5th. I've seen theories that most levels are around 50 points of improvement. That seems close to correct.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

I ran a DF-inspired campaign that started with the PCs being exceptional 200 point peasants with wooden weapons and leather armor and ended with them being 500+ point literal demi-gods loaded with magical equipment while ruling three countries and turning down a marriage alliance to rule a fourth. Admittedly, there was more of a focus on politics and armies than is normal in DF, but it was a kind of level 1 to 20 campaign.

I've also run 3-4 other DFRPG campaigns that ramped from 250 CP to 350+ CP, which isn't quite the range of a conventional level 1-20 campaign but is still a substantial amount of growth. So I think I have some relevant experience.

The general rule for DFRPG is to use as much of the Monsters book as possible - swashbucklers and scouts are very effective against mundane humanoids such as orcs and goblins, but can struggle against stone golems, toxifiers, sword-armor golems, eyes of death, and spheres of madness. You probably don't want to throw out hordes of weird stuff against 125 CP beginners, but they need to appear regularly by the time the characters are hitting 200-250 CP. You also want to throw out a lot of non-combat challenges: puzzles, riddles, movement challenges, curses, traps, and all that other stuff. That forces players to spend their CP on things other than improving their primary combat skills.

To more fully mimic the level 1 to level 20 feel, you may want to limit maximum skill levels. I'd suggest a maximum of 17+ one-half the "level" you're aiming for, so 17 or 18 at the start and hitting 27 at the end of the campaign.

mehrkat's recommendations are generally good. If you're converting DnD3e/Pathfinder adventures, they tend to have a lot of encounters that each have very few foes. GURPS works better with fewer encounters that each have more foes, so have all the monsters in an area work together and reinforce each other. It's also easier to avoid overwhelming the PCs if they fight 20 goblins in 4 waves of 5 each than 20 all at once since you can just cancel a wave or two if things are going poorly. It's also a more interesting fight if groups of goblins come swarming in different directions and the PCs have to maneuver.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

Even if you don't cancel any waves, having the monsters come in waves can make it easier for players to tell if they're outmatched because they'll start falling behind. If 3 more doomchildren enter through the tiny golden doorway every third round until all 24 doomchildren are there, then either:

(1) Players kill all the doomchildren in a given wave before the next wave starts and even get a second or two to recover/reload/reposition. This shows that they're ahead of the curve and likely going to win this fight pretty easily. As GM you can use this as a signal that they're ready to enter whatever dungeon level lies beyond the doomchildren. (Assuming you guessed right when writing the adventure about how dangerous 8 waves of 3 doomchildren are relative to the rest of the dungeon.)

(2) Players are just barely keeping up with the doomchildren. There's always at least one doomchild attacking them, but at least the number of active doomchildren never goes above four or five. As GM you can use this to signal that caution is needed if they continue ahead. Players may choose to win the fight but then leave.

(3) Players start getting overwhelmed. First there's 3 doomchildren, then they kill two so there's only 1, then the second wave arrives and more there's 4, then 2, then 5... they can't kill the reinforcements fast enough! This is the important case, because escaping from 5 or 6 doomchildren is much easier than surviving 24 of them at once. (And they can still probably kill the 5 or 6 as long as they are separated from the reinforcements.)

Breaking the monsters apart into timed waves lets you show the players if they're not ready to explore this dungeon yet, without necessarily TPKing them. It's also not unrealistic because the monsters probably aren't all starting in exactly the same place when they hear the alarm or whatever brings them running.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

Note that the advancement assumed in published D&D adventures is going to be much faster than the rate recommended in Exploits. If you run a module for 1st level characters it typically, depending on edition, ends with them at level 2-4. DFRPG characters might get 10-20 points at the most in the same dungeon.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

Honestly, going from 250 to 270 points is probably equivalent to gaining at least one level. That's almost enough to afford Extra Attack [25]! In AD&D you don't gain a second attack until level 13 as a fighter; D&D 5E speeds this up to level 5; in GURPS you can start off as a powerfully built half ogre swashbuckler with two attacks and Striking ST 17 and yet STILL have a third attack by 275 points.

20 points in a single adventure like I Smell A Rat is quite fast. Of course it also depends on how many real-time table hours a single adventure takes. I try to keep it to one or at most two game sessions per adventure--we did I Smell A Rat in three to five hours I think.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

Going from 62 to 72 points probably isn't as much as 1st to 4th level though, which is what might happen with low level D&D adventures and what I was suggesting the OP be wary of.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

I agree, going from 1st to 4th level is a bigger jump than going from 62 to 72 points. But that kind of hyperfast advancement is not really a thing in AD&D or OSE anyway, only in 5E and even then only sometimes. E.g. in OSE the standard expectation is that at least one PC will hit 2nd level after 3-4 sessions, see https://oldschoolessentials.necrotic...of_Advancement That's comparable to gaining 3-6 points a session in DFRPG.

5E has extremely rapid advancement from levels 1-3 because they're supposed to be "tutorial" levels basically, whereas DFRPG just skips over them entirely and starts you off at 250 points.

@OP, I'm trying to avoid giving you advice because I've yet to make a level 1-20 work in practice, but I guess I'll share what I see as the major design obstacle: when you have to design a gameworld that has challenges appropriate for both ends of a wide power spectrum, either you have to railroad players a bit (which I dislike), or find a way of gating difficulty (dungeon guardians like The Bard's Tale, so you can't get into the dungeon without being a certain minimum power level), or just write the world to be challenging to ANYONE no matter their power level and let low-level PCs parley/find patrons/play Combat As War style/etc. to survive until they gain enough XP to become high-level players too. Imagine for example a 2d6 wilderness encounter table that has both 4d6 bandits on it if you roll a 7, and a dragon if you roll a 1 (75% adult, 25% ancient). Level 1 PCs who meet a dragon will have to offer treasure or solve a riddle to survive, but level 20 PCs can fight it.

Anyway, I like DFRPG because it has a power curve flat enough that I have been able to STOP trying to make a "level 1-20 gameworld" work. But those are my thoughts on the challenges, from my attempts at doing so in 5E. I've never been able to get both ends of the spectrum (1st and 20th) working in the same campaign.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

Again...I'm really interested in this sort of thing.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

You got 7 responses from 4 different people. I don't think it's reasonable to expect you'll get detailed responses on converting 4 different adventure paths that are literally hundreds of different encounters over a range of levels. People gave you general responses because that's what they had to offer. You might want to try engaging with that.

You said you were open to other adventure paths. I adapted a couple of parts of the Savage Tide adventure path for my F2F group, and wrote some about my decisions and the actual play of the sessions here: https://noschoolgrognard.blogspot.co...Savage%20Tides

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

In what way are you interested?

Do you want someone else to do all the work of "converting" them to GURPS? Cause that's not likely to happen.

Do you want to hear about someone's experiences running those campaigns for GURPS? That's likelier, but not from me as I've never even heard of some of them or read the others.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

I feel like this was my experience with 3e modules, too. It certainly is my experience with PF 1e APs.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

I've run WotBS in dnd4e and Zeitgeist using DF/Steampunk starting at 150 ish points. Starting W at 62 points should work. They're pretty optimized and are something of glass cannons. I would focus on the feel of the campaign rather than exact conversions. Given the harsh penalties for teleporting, the lack of same in DF should not be a problem. You'll probably still want a more generous advancement. I would suggest roughly 25 per module, that will get to full DF characters at the end. Possibly 50 per at the end if you want to allow really high end stuff from dnd if you feel up to it. 400 might do the last module reasonably well but it will require a lot of work to challenge them.

Feel free to ask if you have specific questions.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

I agree that would be totally unreasonable. Apparently I simply wasn't expressing what I was looking for clearly enough, so I'll try again below...

First of all, let me say that instead of writing 1st-20th level, I should have written 1st-Nth level. That opens up the door to even more possibilities because there are several campaigns, or adventure paths if you prefer, that run, for example 1st-6th, 1st-10th, 1st-15, etc.

So what I'd like is for GMs of DFRPG that have run such 1st-Nth level campaigns to give me feedback on specific campaigns (or adventure paths) on how well did it convert over to DFRPG. Any specific advice you can give on that specific campaign I'd be happy to hear.

I'm not looking for general advice of any kind, just on specific campaigns. The 4 I listed that I'm particularly interested in (Warlord of the Accordlands, The Drow War, War of the Burning Sky, and The Enemy Within) are simply because I already own these. If you've run some other 1st-Nth campaign though, I'm open to hearing feedback on whatever specific campaign that is, I might go buy those.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

I'm a player, rather than the GM, in the Pathfinder 1e adventure path Kingmaker, being run under GURPS DF rather than DFRPG. It is a level 1-to-N campaign, but we started it as 250-point characters. We're now well into part four of six, at about 335 points.

At the start, we didn't have much trouble with the fights, but we weren't in practice at low-tech combat. They're now getting more challenging. We are a rather small party: a knight, a wizard specialising in air magic and a necromancer with a cleric as a 75% Ally.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

I know of this, but know nothing of this, so I've downloaded the free files and am looking into it, so...
I'll probably get back to you on Zeitgeist, after I've read the free stuff.



Awesome feedback dude. That's great to know that your power level seemed too high at first. Can you tell me whether your GM bothered trying to modify the number of opponents called for? I know, in general, GURPS is far more deadly when it comes to odds-against-opponents than D&D is, I assume it's the same for Pathfinder...?

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

I don't think he did. The players are all experienced with GURPS (but not with Pathfinder, or recent versions of D&D) and are well aware of the dangers of being outnumbered. Our usual tactics for dealing with it are "shock and awe" - being quite aggressive in the first second or two in the hope of undermining enemy morale. A head or two bouncing around is good for shock value.

I think if you started this Adventure Path with much lower-point characters, you'd need to award experience quite generously to keep up with the scenario.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

As the GM in question (I don't read this forum section often), I'd say that the levers I have to scale with are very different. Numbers of individuals count much more in GURPS than in That Other Game. Most of the time a reasonably competent monster, and pretty much any PC, can be counted on to hit, so what matters is reducing defences, whether by piling many on one or by going multiply-Deceptive on the attack.

Of course Other Game is basically a Lanchester-style formula: I will do X damage per turn against your hit points HY, you will do Y damage per turn against my HX, if HY/X is less than HX/Y then I will win. (It's simpler than Lanchester because losing hit points doesn't impair ability to fight.) In GURPS, usually the first side to take HP damage is the side that's going to lose - so the party can have an exciting combat encounter and still be at full HP, and that doesn't mean it was a walkover.

Another thing that running this game is bringing home to me is that GURPS doesn't have a lot of one-off powers. In Other Game a combatant might only be able to their big attack sometimes, either explicitly N per encounter or because it costs some resource, but in GURPS the fighter can keep on doing double-deceptive cut to the neck all fight long – and the wizard can keep spamming the same spell as long as their FP hold out (or stick to 0-FP-from-high-skill spells), rather than having to switch to whatever they've got left in their memories. So the progress of a combat encounter tends to be "home in on the most effective attack, then keep doing that". And for me the second part of that, the dice exercise, is boring to both GM and players if it takes too long.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

Per-encounter abilities, especially for characters without explicit magical abilities, snap my disbelief-suspenders. They make the game structure excessively visible to the characters. Pretty well all the Other Game I've played has been in editions too old to have such things, and they were one of the things that caused me to give away D&D4e after I'd only read part of one book.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

To the extent that DFRPG has attrition built in, it seems to be in the form of:

1.) Crippling and HP. A fighter who loses an arm or a leg reduces the offensive and defensive strength of the party. This isn't necessarily fun for the player, although at least you're still allowed to talk to NPCs because you're not dead, and you can still use ranged weapons and magic items and spells.

2.) Logistics. Power items, strength potions, caltrops, fine arrows and crossbow bolts, fine throwing weapons. Most of these are not reusable in the same adventure, although a net or a fine throwing axe or a weapon sharpened with a dwarven whetstone is approximately per-encounter. (Although the GM doesn't have to care what "counts as an encounter", he just has to care whether the PCs have enough time to resharpen their weapons before the next thing happens.)

3.) Explicitly time-bound or metatime-bound abilities, like Uninterrupted Flurry (once every 5 minutes) or Luck or even spells and Kiai. These are basically per-encounter abilities too, unless the encounter pace is faster than the resource regeneration rate. Maybe you Glued the first wave of bad guys to the floor, but the wave that comes along two minutes later has to be dealt with differently.

4.) Time and action economy. A pre-loaded crossbow on a crossbow sling can be readied and fired in two to three seconds, but a second shot would take six more seconds. It's approximately per-encounter. Depending on the terrain and order of battle, the distance between you and the enemy can also be thought of as an approximately per-encounter resource too, especially if there are archers and either the PCs or an evil GM has filled the space between with traps. (Yay for Horde Pygmies!)

My players fight hard to avoid getting even within shouting difference of running out of FP, but they're pretty willing to burn items (or at least, the Wealthy ones who are built on the concept of buying and using consumables are), especially for stuff like recon (Wizard Eye) and force multiplication.

I like the DFRPG paradigm here better than the D&D 4E paradigm you mention. "I'm too tired to keep fighting/running/casting" is more comprehensible than "sorry, I can't do that move again until I get an hour's rest."

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

DF also has the very short term attrition of good defenses: best Parry, shield Block, Retreat vs 1 foe, possibly a single Acrobatics enhanced Dodge, maybe an Ally's sacrificial parry.

A lot of common monsters need to collectively attempts 4-8 attacks in a single round at a single melee focused delver in order to attrite all the good defenses down to the point where the monsters can hope to inflict HP loss or crippling injury.

But on each character's turn, all their defenses reset and the attrition starts anew. But it's a meaningful consideration on both sides, on top of the long term concerns about HP, consumable equipment, luck or destiny points, and the action economy.

One attrition concern that you missed is the cumulative penalty for healing spells (or once/day spells like Great Healing) that influences the willingness to press on after a bad fight. A well-designed healer can heal around 30 HP of injury per delver each day, but most groups won't seek out more combat after receiving 2 Major and Minor Heals because there's no margin if a catastrophic hit occurs.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

Good point.

Maybe this is a sign that I need to turn up the difficulty, or tempt them into taking greater risks, but to be frank my players mostly suffer Luck + Bless attrition and not HP attrition. HP attrition mostly comes from AoEs, falling damage, and other incidentals that don't have much chance of adding up to 30+ HP. (And even then my players like to rely on Sanctuary + Healing Slumber anyway, to conserve for emergencies that Major Healing margin you mention.)

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

I didn't think Sanctuary was DF legal, and it seems crazy expensive for an overnight hole-up.

My groups generally didn't suffer 20+ HP in a fight, though Bruno's minotaur berserker memorably did at least four times: brutal slugging duel with a stone golem, brutal fight with a death knight that started with Mrugnak's leg getting crippled, the massive melee where he ran around on fire with a crossbow bolt sticking out of his eye, and his final fight against a Weapon Master spearman who blinded Mrugnak in both eyes. Groups with berserkers need more healing, what a shock.

But it was an infrequent but routine event for someone to take 15+ HP of injury in a single fight and for the group to retreat out of the delve site and return the next day. Or if they were on the road, at least fort up for a day instead of risking more encounters.

You should probably check with your players if they're satisfied with the level of difficult and risk/reward. Some groups want a brutal game of difficult choices, and others want minimal challenge escapism, and many groups are somewhere in between. All styles are valid if everyone is having fun.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

Sanctuary is on DF Spells page 35. It's only 5 energy per hour, very affordable if you want to hole up for a while and heal. (4 hours is plenty.) My players like having a Power Investiture 6 Fit cleric around, which gives the cleric 18 energy per hour even in a low-Sanctity zone like a Sanctuary; leaving roughly 14 energy per hour for stuff like Healing Slumber.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

If you're fighting against odds, it is important to keep moving, and avoid being surrounded. If you have an opponent in every hex around you, you're going to be in trouble.

Even if you do this well, there will be occasions when being attacked from behind is unavoidable. You need to minimise that as much as possible. Don't skimp on rear armour; I'm starting to wonder about the cost and weight of having better armour at the back than the front.

The short combat turns and detailed movement that GURPS uses change some of the expectations of combat. Spellcasters who hear a party outside their rooms should get at least six hexes away from the door to avoid getting hit by a Move and Attack in the first second.

Re: Experiences with running "level 1 to level 20" campaigns, using DFRPG
 

Hit point scaling is an interesting issue with playing D&D/Pathfinder scenarios with GURPS characters.

At first, our GM adjusted hit points, but he stopped fairly soon. Monsters have their Pathfinder hit points, and fall over when they go below zero. Two of the characters in our DF party do most of the damage:

Our Knight is a high-ST, high-skill Weapon Master, and readily does 30 points of cutting damage a turn after active defences. That allows us to cope with Pathfinder monsters, given some care with tactics and hit locations.

Our Wizard has settled on normally using Lightning Stare (he gets 2d for no FP) with high skill and the Psychic Guidance perk, blasting monsters' eyes and blowing through to their brains. Since he's normally in Body of Air, he can stay out of their grasp with flight move 10.

Our Necromancer and Scout-Thief do damage on a smaller scale, but are in no way useless. The necromancer's Deathtouch is invaluable for things with lots of DR or immunities, and he can use Phase to avoid getting hit in melee. The Scout-Thief uses cover well and harasses spellcasters with bowfire, making the enemy's situation more complicated. Our cleric is a henchman, and stays out of fights.