Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

Look at a real picture of a cestus, they are not Wolverine claws, they fill the hand. There are gloves with blades, this is not a cestus, a cestus was used in ancient battles and in the arena.

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

Henry, good questions. I will say that your first 5 questions are up to the GM as the rules are not clear. Several of these cestus questions we have already discussed here. Search the forum to see how other resolve it, but there is no definitive answer from the rules.

6. If a cestus and dagger user gets into HTH must she drop her dagger?

ITL 117 about HTH combat: "the defender drops his ready weapon and/or shield (unless weapon is a main-gouche or dagger)". So, no a dagger may always be held while in HTH, even if you have a cestus on the other hand.

There are no rules for striking twice in HTH even if you have two weapons, so I would not allow it, but at least the combatant will have a choice and a back up weapon while in HTH.


BTW:

I like this page for cestus historical information and images:
https://www.onlymartialarts.site/his...-boxing-glove/

This ancient Greek sculpture shows a boxer with cestus. It is from 300-200 BC. You can see this at the Getty museum just north of Los Angeles off the 405 highway. A great museum for this and much more:
https://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/power_pathos/

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

The only rules for striking twice in HTH are for two cestuses. (DX +4 -3, ITL 113) and UC V (ITL 44)

Also see "You may use only one dagger (or main-gauche) in HTH." -Melee rulebook page 18.

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

I am changing my view on how cesti work:

- Damage in HTH and in melee is always "By ST" +3. Based on the weapons table stating "By ST"

- Pg 113 reference to two attacks is melee only, and not HTH, because it states this is used as in boxing. Boxing is not grappling which is HTH.

- Pg 113 reference to treat it like a main-gauche will be in its use to block damage like a small shield for the cost of DX when using it as an second weapon. That is, as a "left-handed weapon" it gets both the DX -1 and the -1 damage protection.


So, my opinion/answers to your questions are:

1. Will striking with a cestus into an adjacent hex do less damage than a bare handed punch for characters of ST 15 or higher?

- no, since both damage are the same.

2. Does wearing a cestus impose a -1 DX penalty? ("Like a small shield, it carries a -1 DX penalty." ITL 111) What if two are worn?

- yes, but only if it is worn as a second weapon.

3. Does wearing two cesti give a -2 DX penalty and stop two hits?

- no. Only the off-hand cestus gives both the -1 DX and the -1 hits, as per the main-gauche rules on page 111, in the section titled "Left-Hand Weapons."

4. Is there a restriction on which weapons an Expert Cestus user can defend against?

- yes. It has the same limitations as the main-gauche. Pg 111, "main-gauche, acts as a shield to parry 1 hit per attack, from non-missile, one-handed weapons only, from your front hexes." And since pg 113 states "A single cestus is treated exactly like a main-gauche".

5. Does the full Two Weapons talent help with a pair of cesti, or one plus some other weapon?

- Probably. Extra skills should impart an advantage. Exactly how, I'll worry about this when I see someone with both.

6. If a cestus and dagger user gets into HTH must she drop her dagger?

- no. Daggers don't need to be dropped in HTH. She gets to choose which she attacks with each turn, since she only gets one attack in HTH.

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

I replaced this talent.
https://forums.sjgames.com/showpost....0&postcount=49

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

We did it that way in our Classic TFT days. ITL says +3 in HTH for a cestus. So using that guideline and the fact that Reptile men get a +2 to Bare Hands damage (BHD) for claws. I'm considering following that lead. The cestus, by it's very nature should be linked to ST based BHD. So, in Melee that would be BHD+2 and in HTH BHD+3. But I'm currently using the +3 BHD and HTH as you stated. Its simple and it doesn't upset the balance of the TFT universe.

Now, add Cestus expertise to bump it to the next level.

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

I think that is a good extrapolation: Cestus +2 BHD melee.

The rules say a "single cestus" is like a main-gauche. I take this to mean the off-hand use of a cestus. So, I will apply the DX -1 to any one with one or two cestus (that is, never -2) and it will also carry over to in HTH. Harder to grapple with your hands bound to weights.

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

Correction of a previous statement:
The rest of your post makes sense as a decent application. However, I have experimented with a cestus wielder on both hands and has two weapons talent. In that case, the two weapons talent application seems to work well. In that case, there is no effective "off-hand" weapon but just the one that attacks second or parries. I treat parrying with a cestus to be the same as parrying with a dagger. It only stops one extra hit instead of two.

Your point about the weight of the cesti is interesting. In our youth, my brother and I would put on pairs of 14 oz. boxing gloves and go at each other. I can say that after three minutes of that, your arms feel like noodles. So, after 12 turns of swinging two cesti, I would impose 1 Fatigue point--2 points after 24 Turns, 3 points after 36 Turns. Most battles don't last that long but it does emulate my personal knowledge.

I have had a very small number of battles last past 12 turns and one that approached 20 turns. These were situations where both parties were aware of each other and were hostile at a greater distance apart.

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

A rapier is 2 oz. heavier than one of those boxing gloves; would you impose the same fatigue on someone wielding one of those?

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

The timing of this tangent is serendipitous. I got me an idea the other day...
https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=194816

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

My point was more that the hands were bound. Cannot hold a weapon so it would be harder to grip someone you are grappling with. Thus the DX penalty should remain.

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

I was thinking out loud. I probably wouldn't impose such fatigue but wouldn't have to in most cases even if I did due to the battle duration. If the battle were to drag on, fatigue would be a concern for the GM to take into effect. Did you mean 2 lbs. for a rapier? If one has the talent for it, fatigue should probably not be a concern in typical battle scenarios.

If I recall, professional boxers tend to use lighter gloves (<10 oz.). They probably have little to no fatigue imposed by their gloves due to their strength and physical condition.

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

Perhaps. I'll have to think about that some. With two cesti, one can hook an arm around the foe. With one cestus, there is a free hand for grappling.

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

Hi, Bill.

No. Rapier is listed as 1 lb (16 oz.) in my copy of ITL, which makes it 2 oz. heavier than the 14 oz. boxing gloves you mentioned (unless the listed weight is for the pair, rather than per glove).

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

Thanks for the explanation. I would probably need to check to make sure but, from the way that my arms felt after 3 minutes of swinging them around, I'm inclined to believe that each glove was 14 oz. LOL!

The combat would have to drag on longer than most for such a fatigue to be imposed. And, to be truly accurate, a GM would have to take into account the amount of time that the PCs were actually in combat and swinging them.

So, if it takes 12 turns of active combat while wielding the weapons, if there are a couple of turns where that does not happen, how many turns of recovery does that represent and how many turns does that add to the count?

This is why I probably wouldn't impose such fatigue. First, it's unlikely to come into play and, if it does, it would just be too complicated for what it's worth to the game.

Now, if you have characters that aren't hitting or inflicting damage inflicting damage after a long number of turns, a GM may want to start taking fatigue into account.

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

I usually try not to "weigh in" on this type of thing, but since there has been some mention of historical verisimilitude on this thread. . .

Examples of historical rapiers found in museums and private collections usually run from 2.5 to 4 lbs.

Examples of historical smallswords come closer to the 1lb average.

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

Yeah, the weights in ITL are not necessarily realistic. But they are the listed weights.

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

Personally I consider the weapon names to be suggestive and if the player wants a heavy sabre or a light claymore then pick the weapon with the "right stats" and rename it.


Which is why I lean towards Fencing is just Sword Expertise.

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

Yes, I totally agree.

Fencing is limited to Sabers and lower because it is better than Weapon Expert (Shrewd blow is easier). So, Weapon Expert with Swords starts with Short Swords and up.

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Neither of which is about Cestus. My apologies to the OP.

Re: Talent for the weak: Cestus
 

Best way to keep a wizard from casting is to put two iron cestus on him and gag him. He's unlikely to have the talent for the weapon and will be limited to spells 5 IQ points down at a -4.