Selling loot (wealth advantage and time spent)
Hi guys,
I have a quick question about selling loot. It seems that the rules highly suggest that the wealthiest delver sells the loot for the entire party... but are there any limitations in place? It feels to me very "cheap" to just pool character points into a single delver with wealthy and then the entire party will have a huge profit for this, especially if the wealthy PC is a team player. And regarding another potential "limitation" on the inflaction of wealth... How much time does the selling takes? Does it depends on the loot being sold to different merchants? To the lump amount of loot to be sold in general? So, how do you manage selling loot in your game? |
Re: Selling loot (wealth advantage and time spent)
If you take a dependency on a single wealthy character, the only limitation is that you're now dependent on a single wealthy character. If the wealthy elven bard sells $10K of loot for $10K instead of $4K and says, "okay, let's split $6K of this evenly between everyone, but I want to keep $4K to buy healing potions and spell scrolls to help the party," they're not doing anything wrong[1]. Some people enjoy the gear and equipment minigame more than others and if they choose to invest character points in getting better at it, while still helping everyone else, that's okay.
As for how long it takes, I just make it happen at the end of an adventure during downtime, as Exploits suggests. If players wanted to do it during the middle of an adventure I'd eyeball it: 1-3 days sounds reasonable in a large city for selling most items. [1] The wizard who casts Invisibility on everyone but Flight only on himself, because he doesn't want a -10 penalty to all his spells, is likewise not doing anything wrong. |
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Because sometimes the rules assess the number of downtime activities per day, and sometimes per the entire downtime. |
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By eyeballing it as 1-3 days I'm actually probably requiring more time than the RAW call for, because I don't actually think the ideal buyer for broadswords is necessarily the ideal buyer for silk pantaloons and jars of cinnamon, etc. I'm assuming that the Wealthy PC has to shop around a bit to find the best price. If it took weeks to finish the adventure and sell loot, I am assuming pg. 15-16 would be written differently, and would mention the weeks of effort explicitly as part of the rules for selling. E.g. instead of "no repeated attempts (p. 7) until after the party brings its next haul to town!" it would say "no repeated attempts until three weeks have passed." |
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Thank you very much for the clarifications! :)
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Other cases when that downside manifests include (1) when the player misses one or more game sessions or adventures you'll get less money; (2) if the character dies during the adventure you'll get less money. P.S. I guess the other point I kind of had in mind is that having $4000 to spend on the party's behalf is a really cool and fun "superpower". DFRPG has a great gear-and-equipment minigame! $160 for a universal scroll of Major Healing, $400 for a universal scroll of Bless, $300 for a charged scroll of Shield III or Haste III, $100 for an (uncharged) scroll of Great Haste... a wealthy elven bard who spends $4000 on consumables is going to have a lot of fun during the next adventure. |
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Woof. That also didn't go over very well either, but it did convince the less greedy Players that he was right the first time, and the party (Players as well) basically split into two distinct groups... and the two greedy guses who refused to back down from their positions were kicked out (too many instances of being "those guys"). Quote:
Personally when I've been the party bursar I've never held back a larger share for myself, but then my "super power" was in selling/buying and wasn't nearly as useful in combat or 'dungeoneering', so I considered the fact the other party members were actively keeping my paper man alive and rolling in loot was equitable. Quote:
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In one game I ran the outpost "town" had a semi-random ceiling on "purchasing power", the outpost merchants had (5d6+10)K$ total each "week" and a strict limit of "half that" for any singular sale item. Now I was running a "lower wealth" game, for more money just up the dice or turn the "+" into a "x", and you can set limits too. Quote:
If you want them to unload on a broker who fronts them cash and turns around and resells their goods, do it, make selling take as much time as for the broker to assess the value (say a day, less if they want to take a lower cut). Quote:
Just be wary, town is handwaved for genre reasons, so if you start messing with that, you're undermining those conventions and will have spill-over effects. Quote:
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Wealthy [20] for buying and selling Elven [20] for Magery 0 and other goodies Bardic Talent +1 (3) [10] to boost all your Hard spells up to 15+ Song of Humiliation [4] for an awesome, inexpensive free action 6 points left over for ER 2 or Move +1 (8) or whatever suits you For spells, be sure to pick up Resist Sound-15 to maintain on the whole party while dungeon crawling so that you and the wizard can spam Concussion without repercussions, Mind Search-14 as a nice complement to your face skills, Concussion (requires 4 quirk points for prereqs) to pre-cast before combat to shift the odds decisively in your favor against most monsters, and maybe Charm and Loyalty for when you're not busy maintaining Resist Sound, to give you strategic and tactical options, and Hush because it's cheap and useful for recon and easy to drop if you need to speak or spellcast. Later on you can pick up stuff like Invisibility, Dark Vision, Complex Illusion, and Illusion Disguise too, although you'll want to raise IQ if you want to keep them up habitually. "Nigh useless bungler" you will not be. |
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Kinda... really skews the old perceptions there. I'd still rather slowly buy up Wealth on another profession than ever do Thief or Bard. |
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This is okay because between "For You, A Special Price" (+1 to effective Wealth ~50% of the time, per Exploits pg 16) and "Haggling" (also +1 to effective Wealth and 50% of the time, also on Exploits pg 16), Very Wealthy is redundant 75% of the time anyway--you can't sell for more than 100%. If you count black markets, it's redundant 90%+ of the time. I agree that Thieves are pretty terrible, but Wealthy Elven Bards are awesome. |
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You'll find a big discussion of the topic (with input from Kromm) here, and a summary by me here. Social dynamics can get interesting when a party has delvers of very mixed wealth levels... |
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"somebody playing the cleric who shells out for Power Investiture 5 and lots of Energy Reserve to Bless people all the time and walk around at -1 to spells" because if you're Blessing "people" that's more than one Bless so you'll be at -2 or greater to all spells. I'm 90%+ sure that Kromm is not suggesting that spells "on" are counted per-skill and not per-instance, and even if he were suggesting that I would veto it for my own games anyway as overpowered. I think he probably meant "-1 to spells per Bless" and just didn't write that. |
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If the cleric did place Bless on n people simultaneously, then yes, that should mean -n on further spells, for as long as those Blesses remain in effect. |
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It's -1 per Bless, not -1 total, isn't it? |
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In fact passing a note telling them how much the loot sold for, rather than revealing it to the party as a whole, is a perfectly reasonable way to handle this as the GM. If they then want to lie, you should let them. |
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The idea of the wealthy character keeping more of the coin has always confused me.
Here's the situation: • The wealthy character can sell loot for 1.5x what it would have sold for • The wealthy character is less powerful; thus less effective at acquiring loot • The non-wealthy characters are more powerful; thus more effective at acquiring loot • There are more non-wealthy characters than wealthy characters Here's roughly how I think this plays out: 4 non-wealthy characters and a wealthy character go into a dungeon. They all risk their lives and pull out a 100g worth of treasure. The wealthy character can get the best price for it (60g instead of 40g). The wealthy character might say "If I didn't have wealth, we would receive 40g, and you all would receive 8g. Instead, I have wealth and we receive 60g. I propose you each get 9g and I get the remaining 24g." The archer could pipe up "I could have taken wealth as well but didn't, and as a result we earned more treasure for you to sell. Had I also been a Bard, we might have died or been unable to find some of the treasure we did". The cleric could pipe up "I could have taken wealth as well but didn't..." ---- The more mercenary conversation looks like: "If you don't give us our equal share, the four of us will forcibly take it from you." Additionally, the wealth itself tends to be best spent on the non-wealthy; they probably spent the points on dungeon-useful areas rather than selling-things-for-more, and giving them better armor or a more powerful weapon or whatever is a force-multiplier. The dynamic this creates is that money optimizers feel optimization pressure to delegate one of their members to be wealthy and that player is forever ~4 weapon skill behind all of the other ones (which is a massive difference). If your table experiences this tension and players don't want to be mr moneybags but feel like someone has to because it's ridiculously effective, I advocate for removing the option and splitting the difference: stuff just sells for 50% instead of 40% or 60%. Has the advantage of easier mental math too. |
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(1) It's not like wealthy elven bards don't pull their own weight, especially if they use some of their wealth for things like universal Bless scrolls to help the party, or paut, or better weapons and armor; or put Resist Sound up on everybody and then chuck Concussions. (2) Even if it happens to be an adventure where archery is better than whatever the bard does, it's not like more treasure magically appears just because the delvers are deadlier. In some cases, the archer's remarks could be fair and true after a given adventure (e.g. archer's arrows brought down a flying gryphon and the lich-king on it, who had powerful and valuable items on his person), but it's a niche scenario. And it's mostly a moot point because a Scout can't take Wealth anyway. Positive Wealth is only on the bard and thief templates. Quote:
Stupid betrayal leads to stupid betrayal. |
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The core problem with being the guy who sells things is that it's really not a job that needs an adventurer.
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There's an antisynergy in that multiple Wealthy characters in the same party have diminishing returns, but then that's true for multiple healers too. |
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There's two methods of handling wealth that are both simple and fair:
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4. Let players worry about how they want to deal with it. How and when they choose to divvy up loot is none of the GM's business. The DFRPG method of handling Wealth works absolutely fine. I don't know what you mean by "the hybrid GURPS tries to use". P.S. I cannot enough emphasize how much fun Wealthy characters are. DFRPG has an excellent gear and equipment minigame. A healer "has" to go into the dungeon to keep people healthy, but a Wealthy elven bard who has to go into the dungeon because he's a bard gets to burn scrolls and potions like water while doing so because he's Wealthy. |
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I am doubtful that another 20 CP in anything would have generated enough raw treasure to make a difference, since the PCs mostly cleared the dungeons and the stuff they missed were player decisions (like not searching the crushroom guts for metallic treasures or failing to inspect a false wall and missing a treasure room). And the CP for Wealth always comes out of the Advantages section of the template, not the Skills section, so it's the bard not having Terror or Telesend; or the wizard having Magery 4 instead of Magery 6. Having -2 on all spells compared to a differently optimized character is a little painful, but it's not the stark contrast of having Melee Weapon-18 while the guy next to you has Melee Weapon-23. |
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Edit: You probably want a 125 point guy for this job just to afford wealth, so that's $400. So assuming the factor gets +60% returns on loot for you, you need a $667 haul to break even. |
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Depending on how good (or lucky) the agent/factor is they can get them anywhere from 20-80% return on their goods, with an average of right around 60% (I give regular in town Hireling Agents Comfortable Wealth and Merchant skill 14 and have 'critical' failures to drop price by -40%, it's the risk of hiring someone to make you more money). |
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What I was getting at is that the line of "If I hadn't have made X character choice, we would have earned Y loot, so I deserve Z share" is a path to madness. We don't want to be in the business of measuring a class's DFRPG equivalent of NFL's Wins Above Replacement. Quote:
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The players immediately start discussing who "has" to take wealth; which person the 15 point tax should be placed on. No concept that the loot distribution would be anything but equitable ever came up. If it had, it would have been dunked on immediately (if you take wealthy and want more treasure, i'll take wealthy too. we'll all take wealthy. antipattern). Wealthy is too good for someone to not have it which is a problem imo. |
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Surely you're not arguing that someone who spends 20 points to get a 125-point crossbowman hireling ($400), five universal scrolls of Bless (5 x $400) so that everybody can be Blessed without penalizing the cleric's spellcasting, a dwarven whetstone ($500) to sharpen all the crossbow bolts and everyone else's weapons too, a weapon and light armor for himself ($900 or so), and an extra $1100 to up-armor the party frontliners or buy paut for the wizard or healing potions in case the cleric gets injured... surely you're not going to argue that those 20 points made him and the party weaker! Your whole argument appears to rest on the assumption that Wealth makes you a burden on the rest of the party, but that's just not the case. For example: Quote:
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We found it simplest for the wizard to take a point or two of Merchant and haggle on the stuff that looks most worth it. But our party is small, and doesn't compete internally very much; we're more about the story than the loot.
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If there's an Adventurer's Guild, then having a 'loot selling' function makes a lot of sense. The Guild would take a cut, of course, and they might not sell illegal or clearly evil items (they may get into trouble if someone summoned a demon using an item they had sold, for instance), but it's a definite possibility.
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Otherwise Dead Broke becomes too easy to bypass. |
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But then I also have rarely seen a PC take Dead Broke, most want far more starting equipment than Dead Broke allows. |
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Cash however is easy to get in any adventure I've ever read or run. |
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Inversely, some games are cash strapped and the PCs are far more worried about starting gear when they'll be cut off later during a hex crawl or "marches" campaign. So while I keep giving Poor and Dead Broke the ole stink eye and thinking "these two might be problems", it's very rare my Players ever take them. And personally despite having made a few characters that would have worked just fine as Poor or Dead Broke*, I've also never taken those disads just in case the PC needs to sell something without the party to do it for them (and there were just better more flavor worthy disads to take). * They didn't rely on gear or armor much at all, and weren't DFRPG characters either (Ogre Barbarian/Wrestler, Spear wielding Swashbuckler/Martial Artist). |
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I'm frankly surprised everybody is sticking to the the rules as written in this case. They do make Wealth differences a really weird beast in DFRPG (and GURPS DF). Social play is not a big thing in DFRPG and Wealth is a trait that goes against the grain of the typical dungeon-delving tropes. You don't go delving with a rich character, because they can sell the loot better in town. That's what quest-givers and professional support networks are for. Also I really don't enjoy intra-party conflicts based on wealth. We have enough of that in the real world.
The easiest fix for munchkinism is keeping everybody at average Wealth, the second easiest is to forbid below-average Wealth. Yes, exploitability depends on which profession you pick, but a dead-broke martial artist is not as huge a problem as the point value you get and other combos are similar. The slightly more involved option is to make everybody take Wealth depending on the gear they carry around after a while. It's probably not good to go with starting wealth, but 3-5 x starting wealth gear should be fine. So the martial artist can stay poor if they only spend money on perishables and everybody else can have a little gear and still be at below-average Wealth levels. This does not necessarily mean everybody will end up at above-average Wealth eventually, but staying at average or lower is now an active choice with costs and benefits. This way the equipment mini-game is tied back to points just like it is at character creation. It also helps with playing tropes. You can opt to play a scout who doesn't want to let go of their old bow and keeps using only a few select magic arrows in exchange for being more personally powerful. What I do myself, though, is that I just let everybody get paid according to their own Wealth level. So if the very wealthy thief and the struggling scout get a $1,000 share each, the effective payout will be $1,000 and $200 respectively. That might sound counter-intuitive, but keep in mind that a realistic merchant will never pay 100% of an item's worth. So the payout must represent something else. I visualise it as investments and networks a rich character has that a poor doesn't. The poor character might also have debts to serve, relatives to help out etc. It's an abstraction and far from perfect, but it helps to keep Wealth a personal trait, not a hit you take for the party. I also usually have the selling of the loot take a week or so (more if it's a big haul or includes very weird items). You mileage may vary, of course, and I completely understand when people like to do things by the book. I'd love to hear other methods of cutting down on the less enjoyable effects of Wealth. |
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