Immunity to Break Weapon
 

The text for the Break Weapon spell suggests there is an Immunity to the spell that can be enchanted into a magic weapon, but there doesn't seem to be an entry for it on the magic item creation table. What do you reckon the requirements for such an enchantment ought to be?
I'm thinking about twice everything for the Drop Weapon enchantment, but I'm curious what all of you think.

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

See the top of ITL page 156 for the section "Enchanting Objects with Immunity Spells"

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

Wow. I don't know how I missed that little paragraph. I've read and reread the rest of the section numerous times trying to figure it out, I've done a Google search, I've searched the SJ Games forums, and I looked up the errata - all in search of the answer, but there it is in black and white.

Sincerely, thanks.

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

It is why I love the pdf version of ITL. Can just do searches for keywords. I knew this section was there, but the word search makes it fast to find.

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

I love how TFT grognards always agree.
In the Labyrinth is more open to interpretation than The Good Book ;-)

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

I don't exactly agree. I think that Immunity to Drop Weapon is one thing, and that Immunity to Break Weapon should simply be another enchantment (without a corresponding enchantment that breaks weapons).

The one I added to my Advanced Wizard book, back about 1982, is cost $1500, 2 weeks, 100 ST/day, $130 ingredients per week.

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

The Spell reference Pages in the Wizard game contain an answer to this question on page 4 under the description for Break Weapon, the IQ 12 spell. In the description, the rules state that all magic weapons are immune to Break Weapon by their very nature as magic weapons.
This text also appears in the original Wizard as well in the description of the Break Weapon spell.
I think that the above was the intended rule for ITL, but it was garbled in translation in the original text and not corrected in Legacy. Or at least that will work well enough for me. It's simple to implement it as well. Magic weapons are simply immune to the spell Break Weapon.

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

Good catch and a reasonable answer to put it under Weapon/Armor Enchantment, with immunity to Drop Weapon usually being the second enchantment for only $1000 more. ($500, doubled for second enchantment on the weapon.)
https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#WAE

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

Hmmmm... shouldn't the target of Drop Weapon really be the person holding the weapon (or the hand of that person) and not the weapon itself? Sure you can view it as turning the hilt too hot or slippery to handle, or smacking the weapon with a precise psychic blow, but it might be just as reasonable to assume it just makes the victim's hand(s) go numb or slack for a few instants.

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

Yes, there is at ITL 18 "Makes victim drop", but also "A weapon or other object with Immunity", so a sword with Immunity to Drop Weapon protects against mundane butterfingers also, while the ring only protects against the spell.

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

The combined errata would then be:

ITL 18: The Immunity to Drop Weapon enchantment protects everything the user is carrying against the spell effect, but only the enchanted item itself against mundane clumsiness and disarming attacks.

ITL 23: A Staff II or higher level is itself protected against Drop and Break weapon effects, but does not provide general immunity to the wielder.

ITL 24: As there is no Break Weapon enchantment there is no general Immunity to Break Weapon enchantment that covers the whole figure, but individual items are rendered immune to this spell (and also against accidental breakage) through Staff II or Weapon/Armor Enchantment.

ITL 28: Weapon/Armor Enchantment provides Immunity to Break Weapon to the enchanted item itself, but it does not provide general immunity to the wielder. Immunity to Drop Weapon can be added separately via Lesser Magic Item Creation, using the same procedures as the Drop Weapon enchantment.

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

That just sounds like a really, really odd rule. I sure won't split those hairs.

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

Well, basic Wizard says that.

ITL's version says, Does not work on enchanted swords, shields, etc., constructed with Immunity (q.v.) against this spell. which I wouldn't say is garbled in ITL or Advanced Wizard. It says almost the same thing as basic Wizard, except requiring a specific enchantment to make it so. The fact that there's no cost listing provided is the only hitch, but that's easily fixed. Of course, just like I can say its cost is 1500, you could say your wizards have a version that costs 0. Or, just say what you wrote - it's your campaign.

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

RAW indicate that if a magic item does not exist for a particular thrown spell, then an immunity to said spell is not possible. This is found on pg 156, in the section on Enchanting Objects with Immunity Spells. In the existing rules there is no entry to describe a Break Weapon magic item. By RAW it is not possible to create a magic item with an immunity to Break Weapon spells or results.

At least two distinct rules, one a talent, Master Armourer, and a second a spell, Break Weapon, both indicate the existence of said Break Weapon Immunity.

The Break Weapon spell contains a line of text that is capable of more than one interpretation. "Does not work on enchanted swords, shields, etc., constructed with Immunity (q.v.) against this spell." This text could simply be a reference to a spell effect to be described elsewhere and nothing more, in which case it does nothing to provide a solution. I submit it could also be stating that enchanted swords, etc are, by virtue of their enchantment are granted immunity to break weapons as a side effect.

I believe the latter is what the text intended to say. Note that if that is the true meaning of the text then there is no need for a house rule or house rules and RAW are valid and allow for weapons to be immune to break weapons effects.

Of course, none of the above prevents anyone from seeking a different solution, to include house rules, if they so choose.

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

tldr:
It looks like "Break Weapons Immunity spell" was accidentally omitted from ITL despite multiple references to it and should be added back in, even though there is no "Break Weapons" enchantment itself.


It looks like ITL is missing something. First, I will list references to breaking weapons. The first one has not yet been mentioned in this thread and is specifically about it. All quotes from ITL Legacy. The first quote clearly states that a magic sword is not protected from breaking by virtual of being enchanted.

ITL 167 "Destruction of Magic Items" section:
"Magic items may be destroyed in a number of ways.
Anything which breaks or shatters immediately loses its
magic powers; a broken magic sword is no longer enchanted,
even if it is remade. An object becomes no less fragile by
virtue of the spells on it."

ITL 167 also goes on to describe how lightning spell may destroy magic items and "immunity to lightning (q.v.)" would help. This is relevant only in that it is another example of immunity, but not immunity to Break Weapons spell.

ITL 167 from previous section on removing unwanted magic items:
"when the item is broken, the magic will leave it. A magic Rope could
be cut off, a weapon could be struck against the wall until it breaks, and so on."

ITL 156 "Enchanting Objects with Immunity Spells" section.
Explains how to create immunity to magic spells. It also specifically states, "If there is no magic item to produce an effect, no item can be made to give immunity." This is the part that seems to be in conflict with other quotes.

ITL 150 "Break Weapons" spell is not on the Magic Item Creation Table. This combined with ITL 156 seems to imply that there cannot be immunity to Break Weapons spell. But you will see following quote state to opposite.

ITL 24 "Break Weapon" spell:
"Does not work on enchanted swords, shields, etc., constructed with Immunity (q.v.) against this spell. Such a weapon also will not break on a roll of 18, though it may be broken deliberately if someone wants to do so."
This quote has two keep points regarding Break Weapon spell immunity. The q.v. tells the reader to look up the section on spell Immunity. This means it is specifically stating there can be a Break Weapon Immunity spell. This is in direct conflict with the quote from ITL 150. Not only does it state there can be a Break Weapons Immunity spell, but the second bold explains that such an immunity would also protect against a 18 roll.

ITL 42 "Master Armourer" talent:
"On a 4-die roll against IQ, they will recognize the Weapon/Armor Enchantment spells, immunity to Drop and Break Weapon, and the ability to “flame.”"
Here again we have a Break Weapons immunity enchantment. Again in conflict with ITL 150.

ITL 123 "Fine Weapons" section:
"A finely made weapon which does extra damage is also less likely to break, because of its superior metal. When a Break Weapon spell is used, or a “break” result rolled on the dice, roll one die."
This shows there is some mundane protection against the Break Weapons spell and a roll of 18.


Note weapons may be broken:
- Break Weapon spell
- a roll of 18 during use
- deliberate destruction, say by a smith or thrown in a volcano, etc
It is important to keep in mind which is being referred to when immunity or breaking is mentioned as it is not always all three.


Conclusion:
The only conclusion that makes sense is that "Break Weapons Immunity spell" was accidentally omitted from ITL despite multiple references to it and should be added back in, even though there is no "Break Weapons" enchantment itself. This would have to be the exception to the page 150 rule.
Just like there is a "Destroy Illusion" magic item enchantment without there being a "Destroy Illusion" spell, there should be a "Break Weapons Immunity" magic item enchantment.

I would suggest the following addition to the table on ITL 150:
Magic Item (minor/lesser enchantment): Break Weapon Immunity
Price: $3000
Notes: none
Weeks: 3
ST/Day: 25
Cost/week: 515

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

Note that the reference is usually to a singular "immunity to Drop and Break Weapon" enchantment.

I'd be happy with errata that either put this as a side effect of the Immunity to Drop Weapon enchantment or under Weapon/Armor enchantment and would favor the later as being closer to Wizard and fitting in with the published adventures.

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

Henry, I don't see that as a singular reference to one spell immunity that prevents both dropping and breaking of weapons. The spell names are "Drop Weapon" and "Break Weapon"; both singular. The ITL 42 reference is to both the spells by spell names, thus the singular sounding statement.

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

My remarks are contained within brackets [].

[There is already a magic item that has immunity to both Drop Weapon and Break Weapon by virtue of it's crafting without the need for a separate immunity enchantment. The ever popular Staff II and beyond. I realize it is not automatically a weapon, but can be a dagger or sword or possibly a spear or a 6 ft long club.]

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

Warhorse,
You wrote the following response in brackets to my post below:

ITL 24 "Break Weapon" spell:
"Does not work on enchanted swords, shields, etc., constructed with Immunity (q.v.) against this spell. Such a weapon also will not break on a roll of 18, though it may be broken deliberately if someone wants to do so."
This quote has two keep points regarding Break Weapon spell immunity. The q.v. tells the reader to look up the section on spell Immunity. This means it is specifically stating there can be a Break Weapon Immunity spell. This is in direct conflict with the quote from ITL 150. Not only does it state there can be a Break Weapons Immunity spell, but the second bold explains that such an immunity would also protect against a 18 roll.

[That is your interpretation of a vaguely crafted statement that is capable of being interpreted in multiple ways. It can mean exactly what you believe it does but it can also be read to imply that a magic weapon is crafted with the immunity to Break Weapon as part of enchanting it.]

Warhorse,
What are your other interpretations? I don't see this section as vaguely crafted. It is quit clear.

How else can you interpret the "Break Weapon" spell's description that states "Does not work on enchanted swords, shields, etc., constructed with immunity (q.v.) against this spell. " I can only see this line saying "this spell" is the Break Weapon spell as it is literally stating that.

And "Immunity (q.v.)" means to point to the immunity section (pg 156). The q.v. tells you that it is a reference to a different section and in this case the Immunity section.

As for those that say all magical weapon unbreakable, see pg 167 as it clearly states they are just as fragile as before.

The only think I find inconsistent in ITL on this is that it states (more than once) that their is a Break Weapon spell Immunity but then failed to list it in the list of enchantments.

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

As I stated previously, that sentence can also be interpreted to mean that a weapon that has been enchanted is by its nature given immunity to Break
Weapons. Immunity to Break Weapons does not make the weapon unbreakable. It only means it can't be broken by an 18 or the Break Weapon spell. Being magically protected by that immunity does not make them more or less fragile. It only grants them that level of protection as listed in the Break Weapon spell.

You do what you wish, I'll do what I wish and those reading these threads can follow whatever course they wish. But I am through with this conversation.

Re: Immunity to Break Weapon
 

One problem with this view is that it is contradicted by the description of Master Armorer. Here we learn that a Master Armorer will always recognize a magic weapon, but will need to succeed on a 4/IQ roll to recognize immunity to Drop and Break Weapon (or any other specific enchantment). If all magic weapons are immune, then surely a Master Armorer would not need to recognize immunity with a roll. But they do. So weapons with that immunity must be a subset of all magical weapons.