32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

Back in the days of yore, it was clear a 32 point Wizard would easily outclass a level 1 AD&D wizard which had only 1 spell a day.

In 5th edition, a level 1 wizard has 3 cantrips (lesser spells) that can be used without limit, and 2 spell slots for the 6 possible spells in their starting spell book.

A little bit more evenly matched between the starting character types now, but it seems that high level magic users in D&D will greatly outclass high level TFT wizards.

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

High level D&D wizards will have vastly more "hit points" than a very experienced TFT wizard, but will lack the dozen apprentices that know the Aid spell.

Here's my notes on character conversions: https://www.hcobb.com/tft/SRD_TFT.html

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

Are you talking about PC wizards? Do you honestly anticipate PCs carrying around a dozen apprentices on an adventure?

I'm assuming that pzmcgwire is speaking about the powers of adventuring wizards, not those who earn a buck making enchanted weapons, creating gates, etc. Such wizards may well have several apprentices, but if they adventure, I'll bet they leave (almost all of) them at home.

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

Although, not a bad idea to hire an apprentice for only $25/week to be your ST battery while on an adventure. I wonder if the guild has anything against that. Cheaper than hiring a merc wizard at $75/week.

"Young man, I will teach you the ways of magic. Follow me closely and give me Aid when I call for it. BTW, if you find yourself in danger, remember I am only hiring you as an apprentice, not a mercenary. So, it is completely voluntary if you wish to defend yourself."

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

ITL 57: "have already been subtracted from these “salaries.”"
ITL 64: "and double that pay"

Assuming that in the group of Snow Heart's seven dwarven apprentices at least one knows of each of Light, Meal, and Stalwart, (or you take along a book with same, so that cost of living is zero or at most a change of robes twice a year), that's $350/week to hire the group.

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

So, not so common to take a slew of apprentices on your adventure?

I mean, I feel like I've recently overdone the treasure rather a bit, but I don't think my players are planning to pay $350 for a bunch of apprentices. I'm also not sure that dragging along seven extra characters (which I honestly probably wouldn't let them do) is conducive to most of their battle plans.

But, of course, different games are different. So far, my players have not hired a single apprentice, but maybe they're just thick.

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

I find a lot of times that players don't think of some things until the GM uses them against them with NPCs. Then all of a sudden it's their favorite trick.

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

That's a fair point.

Far as I can recall, there's only one encounter[1] my players have had where more than one wizard is involved -- and that wizard was not merely casting Aid spells, since there are better uses of his ST and time.

In fact, in combat, I'm not sure that an Aid casting apprentice is all that great. Yes, that means the big wizard can cast a great spell without using up his ST or mana, but if the apprentice doesn't cast Aid, then there are all sorts of good spells he could be casting.

If the big wizard is able to cast 4- or 7-hex illusion, say, or Summon Small Dragon, or any of many really good high IQ spells, then Aid is a good way to maximize impact. If the big wizard doesn't have one of those expensive but really good spells, then the apprentice is probably better off doubling the number of spells cast per turn.

[1] There are a few other planned encounters that involved wizards and apprentices, but so far they haven't taken the bait. I don't use the 1 in 300 wizards to normies ratio suggested in ITL, but most combats against humanoids don't include NPC wizards.

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

Another thing is that TFT Wizards are D&D Sorcerers. (Put that big IQ to work and just take Charisma. You won't need a spell to charm.)

In both games wizards can use crossbows, but in TFT it's a much more powerful option. TFT wizard with at most "12 hit points" firing a 2d6 weapon that averages 7 damage vs a D&D wizard with dozens of hit points firing a 1d8 weapon that averages 4.5 damage.

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

Very different styles of playing. Mostly using game mechanics to evoke a certain narrative style.

D&D uses extra hit points and harder to hit heroes to make the action and narrative more heroic.

TFT don't, it is more grounded and it gets heroic because the stakes are higher.


Making comparisons of power level of characters is like comparing star wars characters to 40k characters... this doesn't stop anyone though.

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

I would have said it was like comparing star wars characters to star trek characters, but that would just be for the groans of true fans everywhere being outraged.

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

Translating this character into TFT: https://dungeonsmaster.com/wp-conten...f-wizard-1.pdf

Sample, Elf wizard, age 20
ST 6, DX 12, IQ 14, MA 12
Talents: Alertness, Literacy
Spells include: 3-Hex Fire, Blur, Detect Magic, Light, Lightning, Sleep, Staff, Telekinesis
Languages: Common, Elvish
Weapon: Staff elm maul (1d), untalented silver dagger (1d-1)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-4)

The Staff and Fire spells cover a lot of the effects of the other spells from D&D. Alertness isn't free for elves, but very useful, even if it costs the Knife talent. This character aspires to the Scholar talent to be the listed "Sage", but hasn't learned it yet. (Minor Illusion would be covered by the Image spell, if you drop something else to cover it. Blur stands in for "Mage Armor".)

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

There is such a huge difference between TFT and D&D in the power of available spells that it is not easy to compare them, no matter what algorithm you try to use. e.g., a first level D&D character can cast a sleep spell that will knock out up to 16 orcs (or other 1HD beings) spanning a significant area, making it a 'one shot' tool for winning big, challenging skirmishes. There are many, many examples of this sort. Even the 7-hex versions of TFT spells of this sort are not nearly this powerful, and you don't expect to see any but the most experienced characters casting them.

And the issue is not one sided: TFT wizards are much more capable as enchanters, alchemists, and illusionists (because of the low cost and utility of basic image and illusion spells), and their combinations of small but useful magics make them much better 'magical thieves' and 'magical scouts'.

So, I don't think any generalizations can be drawn. Except that high level D&D wizards are unrivaled in TFT or most any other game. Personally, I consider that a feature rather than a problem - very experienced/old, powerful wizards should be nearly god-like in my book. D&D is the only game that delivers on that expectation.

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

Ars Magica? GURPS Realm Magic or Ritual Path Magic?

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

To me, the magic systems are so different as to make meaningful comparisons difficult, especially if one accepts the idea that the nature of the world governs what sort of magic will even function.

For example, in my own rpg multiverse, TFT magic wouldn't work in a DnD world and DnD magic wouldn't work in a TFT world.

For warriors, I've generally settled on the idea that a 1st level DnD Fighter is a 32 point TFT Warrior and each DnD level is worth about 2 TFT attribute points. Though I could see an argument for making a 1st level DnD character equivalent to a higher attribute point total in TFT, depending upon what edition of DnD is under consideration. Likewise with the attribute value of each additional DnD level.

I don't think it matters all that much unless trying to do a faithful conversion from one system to the other. But, even then, I prefer to go more by feel than a more scientific conversion.

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

TFT wizards need to be compared against the creatures in their own setting.

How much XP does a TFT wizard need to curbstomp a fully adult dragon of seven-hex size?

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

I don't think a single wizard will be curbstomping a dragon with any reasonable amount of XP. Do you have some sort of curbstomping wizard design in mind?

(he asks cautiously and with some premature regret already...)

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

What's the ground rules here? Is Gate + Calling + vivisection chamber off the menu?

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

I'm not sure how your vivisection chamber works, but it would be a rare wizard who could create a gate without help.

Calling is, on the other hand, an excellent way to meet the dragon on your terms rather than his. Indeed, that may be an overpowered spell. You can avoid all sorts of difficulties with Calling. Sentries could be called off their posts and dispatched easily one at a time, for instance -- so long as the wizard has the ST and mana for this approach.

That's a good spell to discuss in Shostak's weekly thread!

Anyway, the notion that we could reasonably discuss whether a particular individual or party could take a dragon is usually too open-ended to take seriously. It all depends on the circumstances. The Calling spell, on the other hand, does give the wizard great latitude in picking the circumstances.

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

If you can prevent the dragon from flying away then Illusion duplicate Staff to Snake at Staff III or above to exploit the dragon's low DX.

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

Sure. If you can also keep the dragon from ignoring the snakes and getting at you.

And if you can find a GM who believes that an illusory snake can act like the magical snake created by Staff to Snake[1]. That won't fly at my table. You want an illusion of a snake, then you get a snake. An ordinary snake, maybe with poison (but a ST60 saving throw is pretty reliable).

And, of course, how ought the wizard prevent the dragon from flying? (In my game, a Stop spell did the trick, but that's because the incompetent GM didn't apply the hex multiplier for fatigue. He won't make that mistake again. At least not soon.)

[1] Seriously, is there any reason to think that you can use Illusion to duplicate a Staff to Snake creation with the magical powers thereof? If so, why not duplicate your staff to double the mana available? Set your real staff aside until you drain the duplicate. Hope that someone picks up the duplicate. Kablooie!!

Re: 32 point wizard vs 1st Level D&D Wizard
 

You nailed it with this line above. ITL 139 states, "Magic: Illusions cannot use magic."

So, an illusion of a staff-to-snake would look like a staff... without any magical powers. No occult attack, no snake, no mana, no explosion when picked up, etc.