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-   -   [SPACE] Tidal braking (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=18435)

Agemegos 08-31-2009 05:54 AM

Re: [SPACE] Tidal braking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pomphis (Post 843034)
Ger a copy of Space 2e. It had nice and simple rules to roll up systems. Of course, they were probably considerably less realistic.

Space 4e is fine once you have computerised it.

But if you insist on a sequence you can turn manually, I think that the one in GURPS Traveller: First In has an excellent balance between realism and tractability.

Noven 08-31-2009 06:04 AM

Re: [SPACE] Tidal braking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brett (Post 843047)
Space 4e is fine once you have computerised it.

But if you insist on a sequence you can turn manually, I think that the one in GURPS Traveller: First In has an excellent balance between realism and tractability.

I have manually done 33 systems. It most certainly takes a bit of work, but I have done it =). http://wiki.noventhehero.com/index.p...e#Star_Systems

Agemegos 08-31-2009 06:07 AM

Re: [SPACE] Tidal braking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Noven (Post 843051)
I have manually done 33 systems.

That's a tour de force. But it very possibly cost you as much effort as it cost me to code the spreadsheet with which I now design a thousand systems in thirty seconds.

Noven 08-31-2009 06:16 AM

Re: [SPACE] Tidal braking
 
Naw it isn't that bad once you got a system going =P

Figleaf23 08-31-2009 06:21 AM

Re: [SPACE] Tidal braking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brett (Post 843052)
... the spreadsheet with which I now design a thousand systems in thirty seconds.

[wheedling]Any chance of sharey-sharey?[/wheedling]

Agemegos 08-31-2009 06:34 AM

Re: [SPACE] Tidal braking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Figleaf23 (Post 843055)
[wheedling]Any chance of sharey-sharey?[/wheedling]

It isn't a perfectly straight implementation, since I used a formula for tides with my corrections, used my own variant rules of generating rotation periods, added a few minor features such as calculating aphelion and perihelion temperature, visual illuminance, etc., and couldn't implement the spacing of moon's orbits correctly. It would not be legal or proper for me to distribute garbled copies of SJ Games' copyright material.

Figleaf23 08-31-2009 06:42 AM

Re: [SPACE] Tidal braking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brett (Post 843059)
It isn't a perfectly straight implementation, since I used a formula for tides with my corrections, used my own variant rules of generating rotation periods, added a few minor features such as calculating aphelion and perihelion temperature, visual illuminance, etc., and couldn't implement the spacing of moon's orbits correctly. It would not be legal or proper for me to distribute garbled copies of SJ Games' copyright material.

Ah well, it was worth a shot.

Trachmyr 09-08-2009 06:55 AM

Re: [SPACE] Tidal braking
 
I have a question...

If a planet & sattelite form a binary system (barycenter not below the surface of the planet), and are "tide-locked" to each other, but still rotate in regards to the star... would these planets have "Tides"? Would they only be affected by the star, or would they affect each other as normal?

The system in question is:
Code:

Cania, Planetary Statistics (Kentaurus):
Type:                        Large Ice
Density:                0.80 (4.42g/cc)
Diameter:                1.25 (9913 Miles)
Mass:                        1.56 [MMWR 3]
Gravity:                1.0
Apparent Rotation:        Tide Locked to Stygia; 342 Hours [Sidereal Rotation: 331.64 Hours]
Axial Tilt:                30°
Orbital Radii:                1.1223 AU
Eccentricity:                0.08 [Perihelion: 1.033 AU; Aphelion: 1.212 AU]
Orbital Period:                1 Centauri Year (10944 Hours; 1.248 Earth-Years)
Tidal Force:                127 [Tides average 82’]
Geologic Activity:        Heavy Volcanism, Moderate Tectonics
Affinity:                +2 [Resource: +2 (Very Abundant); Habitability: +0]        (+1 Habitability given for mild climate in a non-corrosive atmosphere.)
Moons:                        One Major Moon (Stygia)
Orbit/Esc Velocity:        6.3mps / 7.9mps
Atmospheric Mass:        1.6
Composition:                83.7% He, 8.2% N, 0.3% CO2, 1.4% SO2, 6.3% H2S, 0.1% Trace
Pressure:                Very Dense (8.0), Suffocating and Highly Toxic
Hydrodynamics:                19%
Temperature:                Chilly [272°K (30°F)]
Blackbody:                221°K [Correction: 1.23; Absorption: 0.89; Greenhouse: 0.24]                212 230
Variation/Weather:        Seasonal variations of +/-40°F due in equal part to eccentricity & tilt. Sleet storms and blizzards are severe and slow-moving. Frequent volcanic activity.
Topography:                Mountainous landscape covered with a dark yellow-brown soot, divided by massive glaciers and icy seas, and dotted by chain volcanoes.
Biomass:                None
Settlement:                Colony [TL 10 (Advanced Fusion); PR 6 (1.2 Million); CC 125 Million]
Society:                Technocratic World Government (Meritocracy, Socialist, Colony) [CR 3]
Economics:                Average Wealth ($53,600); $64 Billion Economic Volume; $7.1 Billion Trade Volume (High Traffic)
Installations:                Class IV Spaceport, Naval/Patrol/Survey Base (PR4), Colonial Office, multiple Government Research Stations (some secret), Espionage Facility (military).

Stygia, Cania’s Satellite Statistics (Kentaurus):
Type:                        Standard Ammonia
Density:                0.30 (1.66g/cc)
Diameter:                0.83 (6608 Miles)
Mass:                        0.174 [MMWR 18]
Gravity:                0.25
Apparent Rotation:        Tide-Locked to Cania [342 Hours rotation with Star (Sidereal Rotation: 331.64 Hours)]
Axial Tilt:                36°
Orbital Radii:                45.7511 (362807 Miles)
Eccentricity:                n/a
Orbital Period:                331.64 Hours [To orbit the Star: 1 Centauri Year (10944 Hours; 1.248 Earth-Years)]
Tidal Force:                6.7K [Tides average 481’]
Geologic Activity:        No Volcanism, Light Tectonics
Affinity:                -4 [Resource: -2 (Very Poor); Habitability: -2]
Moons:                        n/a
Orbit/Esc Velocity:        2.6mps / 3.2mps
Atmospheric Mass:        1.6
Composition:                73.6% N, 8.9% CH4, 17.2% NH3, 0.3% Trace
Pressure:                Very Thin (0.4), Suffocating, Corrosive and Lethally Toxic
Hydrodynamics:                84% (Ammonia-Water Eutectic Solution)
Temperature:                Frozen [228°K (-50°F)]
Blackbody:                221°K [Correction: 1.03; Absorption: 0.80; Greenhouse: 0.18]
Variation/Weather:        Seasonal variations of +/-30°F due in mostly to eccentricity, but also axial tilt. Weather is generally mild with relatively little storm activity.
Topography:                The surface is a patchwork of small oceans clogged with icebergs within a glacier covered pangaea of long rolling hills and valleys.
Biomass:                None
Settlement:                None [TL n/a; PR 0; CC 0.83 Million]
Society:                n/a
Economics:                n/a
Installations:                None

Thanks,
Trachmyr

Agemegos 09-08-2009 09:24 AM

Re: [SPACE] Tidal braking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Trachmyr (Post 847265)
I have a question...

If a planet & sattelite form a binary system (barycenter not below the surface of the planet), and are "tide-locked" to each other, but still rotate in regards to the star... would these planets have "Tides"? Would they only be affected by the star, or would they affect each other as normal?

If a planet and its moon are tidelocked to each other then they will each have a tide to the other in a technical sense, in that they will each be pulled into a prolate shape by the other. But those tides won't move. At any particular place the tide won't rise or fall. And therefore neither will produce on the other the phenomenon originally called the tide.

Solar tides will be as calculated, and will vary normally, with one high tide a bit after midnight and another a bit after noon, and low tides shortly after sunrise ahe sunset, modified by geography and resonances.

Schedim 10-13-2009 02:46 AM

Re: [SPACE] Tidal braking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 345903)
For the record, the means of determining how long it would take to get from one rotational period to another is:

A = 62.5 * [(P2 - P1)] / [P1 * P2 * M/D^5 * (S1 - S2)]
A: time needed in billions of years
P1: initial rotational period in hours
P2: final rotational period in hours
M: mass of planet in Earth masses
D: diameter of planet in Earth diameters
S1: sum of squares of tides from sun and satellites with orbital periods greater than P1
S2: sum of squares of tides from remaining satellites.

For multiple satellites:

First Step:
P1 is randomly determined
P2 is the longest satellite orbital period in hours (multiply days by 24)

Subsequent Steps (skip to end if S2 >= S1):
P1 is the previous step's P2
P2 is the next longest satellite orbital period in hours (multiply days by 24)

repeat until you run out of satellites

Last Step (skip if S2 >= S1):
P1 is the previous step's P2
P2 is the planet's orbital period in hours (multiply years by 8766)

For one satellite:

First Step:
P1 is randomly determined
P2 is the satellite orbital period in hours (multiply days by 24)

Last Step (skip if S2 >= S1):
P1 is the previous step's P2
P2 is the planet's orbital period in hours (multiply years by 8766)

For no satellites:

P1 is randomly determined
P2 is the planet's orbital period in hours (multiply years by 8766)

Again, keep a running total of the A's; stop and interpolate the current rotational period if the running total equals or exceeds the system's age.

(Oddly enough, the only equation I'm having trouble with is the interpolation of the current rotational period; and that's simple Algebra. Need sleep...)

I still worrying this old bone... I tried to apply this in my systemgenerator, but one thing is bugging me,. Shouldnt you begin with the SHORTEST moon orbit time when you do the iterations. So the planet rotation progression go:

Starting Rotation -> Shortest Moon Orbit time -> Next Moon Orbit Time -> <repeat until S2 >= S1 or you run out of Moons -> Planet Orbital Time

Or has I gravely misread something?


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