[Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
Dungeon Fantasy Martial Artists are a bit of an odd man out. The other "core" professions all have roots in fantasy fiction and RPGs primarily (if loosely) based off Medieval Europe. The Martial Artist, on the other hand, has its roots in Chinese and Japanese martial arts. Sure, the barbarian template also represents an exotic foreigner—but often one from a mere few hundred miles away, as opposed to several thousand miles away. So I'm wondering about historical precedents for something that could justify using the mechanics of the Martial Artist without feeling so out of place. One thing that comes to mind, oddly, is to portray them as a sort of cinematic version of ancient Olympic athletes. But it might be that people know of other historical precedents. Thoughts?
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Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
I remember coming across a Youtube video of two guys demonstrating a medieval European unarmed combat style called......Twirch Ringen? I'm sure someone who deals with the subject more then me can remember the right name.
There's also Pankration, the Ancient Greek wrestling art. |
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Do you need a historical analog?
In the European middle ages, the Catholic church suppressed all kinds of mysticism. No church, no supression. So, you could just move a neo-berzerker into a more spiritual role. Or if the Celts endured, it's not unlikely they would have developed something similar. The pressures which created unarmed fighting techniques were the banning of weapons for commoners. Anywhere that's sustained, people will invent. But if you're in full-on DF, just add handwavium. |
Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
What are we meaning by "martial arts"? Because Western Europe had a martial arts tradition every bit as rich as the East - there are multiple societies specifically dedicated to researching and recreating the martial arts of the European Middle Ages and Renaissance - and, I think, one that is Viking themed, although whether that is a themed invention or historical research is unknown to me.
If we mean unarmed combat - sadly sportification and the arrival of Eastern styles had probably meant that European Freestyle and anything resembling true Pankration have disappeared into MMA, but in reality, that's what happens to unarmed combat skills: the MMA exponents have more or less proven that Eastern style fossilization doesn't help. |
Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
I think I've related this before, but: When I started gaming with D&D, my local gaming group simply wasn't familiar with "monk" in the sense of Shaolin Temple monk. We pictured the monk class as tonsured, monastic, European monks. Who, for some reason, had weird powers and weapons. We really didn't ask why; it was D&D.
But to address the OP: As others have said, there's no shortage of martial arts styles, techniques, legendary abilities, etc. all over the world. Martial Arts does a pretty great job of surveying non-East Asian fighting, complete with weird cinematic skills and crazy weapons. You can assume that advanced practitioners of some of these can tap into the universal power of chi, even if their "chi" goes by a different name, is understood through different traditions, is honed through different rituals, and yields a different set of disciplines. The results might not be very historical, but they could be fun. (Especially a secret order of Euro monks, drawing on chi but through some philosophical lens of Gnosticism, Hermeticism, or whatever.) (Question for all: In historical belief systems outside of Asia, what might might be the closest equivalents to the "chi" of the Far East or the "prana" of Hinduism?) |
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One of the more unusual things Martial Artists get in Dungeon Fantasy specifically is Enhanced Move at either level 0.5 or level 1. Would be interesting to find some good examples of legendary heroes described as being "swift as a hawk" or similar.
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I'd be very tempted to look into something along the lines of Ancient Greek Pankration or Indian Wrestling.
Savate is also interesting, although anachronistic in more realistic settings - but this is DF! DF is not realistic! Savateurs unite! |
Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
If you're looking for medieval monk warriors, you could just call them Templars. People think they're using secret magic, but really .. it's the chi.
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There are also multiple non-human cultures to assign the idea to.
Perhaps there are martial artists are following a dwarvish tradition that idealizes being tough enough to break rocks with your bare hands, or a catfolk one focused on fighting with only their gods given claws, or even just declare halfling shaolin are a thing and run with it. Alternately, blame the hellgnome gninja - they're always up to shenanigans. The thing where DF towns look like late MA early Ren euro culture is not meant to be a plausible model, really. It's gonzo fantasy so you can justify almost anything. |
Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
Thinking about this more, the "cinematic martial arts skills" and "chi abilities" used in Dungeon Fantasy don't necessarily have to have anything to do with monks or chi. Mechanics-wise, any flavor of Charles Atlas Super Power works, I think. Maybe I should take a hard look at certain Golden Age comic-books for inspiration—apparently the Golden Age Wonder Woman got her powers from "Amazonian concentration".
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The ninja is probably nearly inseparable from the 80s ninja craze that inspired it. Removing it is basically why the assassin exists.
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What distinguishes the DFRPG Martial Artist from other fighter types isn't strictly speaking "martial arts" or fighting skill but the access to special chi abilities. So I would focus on alternate ways of justifying accessing chi abilities.
If you want to link to a fantasy version of ancient Greeks, you could treat it as lost secrets of ancient pagan philosophy. Maybe call it Arete instead of Chi, or something similar. Possibly look at Pankration as their core combat training. If your Clerics are knockoffs of Christianity, that could lead to Clerics and Martial Artists regarding each other with some suspicion. That could also tie Martial Artists closer to Wrestlers. Personally the Wrestler template always makes me think of the old Hercules films. "Now, you will stay by my side and I'll teach you to fight. But not only with your hands. And some day, your friends and enemies will honor you and name you the wise." - Hercules (1958) An alternate more radical thought would be to put the Monk back into Martial Artists. Make the Martial Artist a variant of the Holy Warrior - peasants and other commoners recruited to serve as guards and foot soldiers for the Church. Because they come from lowly backgrounds, their combat training reflects the tools available. They channel divine will to strengthen their bodies and martial prowess. They act as God's brass knuckles. In this variation, the Divine limitation replaces Chi but prayer & meditation still matter. |
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Historical Euro-Style martial monks were closer to "Holy Warriors" in DF, and correspond to knightly orders such as the Teutonic Knights, Hospitallers, and Templars. Quote:
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I suppose Tuck can easily be built simply as a priest with unusually good fighting abilities. But reimagined as a full-fledged holy warrior? I can see that; holy warriors don't have to be all about swords and armor. Now, replace his holy-powered abilities with chi-powered abilities, and he'd be a great fit for the OP concept. |
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_____ * "Sergeant" meant "servant" at the beginning of the relevant period. |
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(edit) - tbone was the first person to comment on the original thread. lol (end edit) Ob Mainthread: The modern "unarmored, often unarmed badass" martial artist is at least in part due to folks who had to fight when fighting equipment was restricted. So they don't use armor and specialize in weapons that are also tools and outright unarmed combat. A reputation for being outright supernatural doesn't hurt either. (For genre reasons, we make this a more feasible strategy compared to weapons and armor than realism would dictate.) If you want to justify this in your DF game (and to be clear, justifying anything in DF is optional) you can duplicate the above circumstances quite easily. |
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I forget where I saw the idea, but gladiators might be the best candidates to take the role of monk-substitutes in quasi-classical dungeon bash campaigns. Continual combat training, check; enforced ascetic lifestyle, check; lighter armour than is available to close combat fighters in their setting, check; gratuitously weird and exotic combat styles compared to the run of sword-and-board fighters around them, check... For mystical powers combined with and related to combat training, I guess there's the relationship that apparently existed between Spanish fencing schools and the Hermetic tradition - all very formal and ritualistic. And for that matter, candomblé and capoeira may have some links, I understand. |
Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
One other thing that occurred to me is that in Dungeon Fantasy, Meditation is mandatory for Martial Artists. It's also mandatory for Shamans as defined in DF9. What if Martial Artists used Shamanic meditation techniques?
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While much later in general you do have the Muscular Christianity movement. That promotes sports, exercise and physical development as supporting moral development. Is/was big on boxing for example.
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Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
The european middle ages have some nice examples. Besides the use of swords, shields and other better known weapons, a lot of other skills were taught.
Brawling was very common, but also refined skills like "Leibringen mit dem Dolch" wrestling with daggers, and a good deal of other skills, like groundfighting techniques. Sadly most of this skills and techniques, as well as the books that thaught them weren´t fashionable later and sometimes completely forgotten. Most of the old Fechtbücher tell a bit about hand to hand and self defense, it was fairly common knowledge of the time. Anyone trying to attack a unarmed knight or professional fighter of this time is in for a very rude surprise, if he thinks just having a black belt is enough to win. That´s more the Hollywood and movie reality of medieval fighting, or computer games to be a bit more modern. Here a bit from the source of all knowledge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martia...n_martial_arts Maybe you look at the names and try to find some of their stuff at https://www.gutenberg.org/ so. There are also some good vids from reenactment groups in the web. |
Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
Other "European" names for chi:
* Aether * Odic force * Elan vital * Vril |
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European martial arts might include quarterstaff. Also that Irish walking stick with the cute name.
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Stilletto: Aside from being a traditional feature of mafia feuds it was used presumably by the jealous husband that according to legend instigated the Sicilian Vespers by stabbing a Frenchman indulging in harassment. It is descended from the knightly mercy dagger and is an optimized stabbing knife with no other practical use. But when it does stab it stabs well due to the needle like blade. Good for an assassin, reasonable as a sidearm, or a main-gauche.
Navaja/Salvavirgo: Mostly a peasant's weapon in Spain but the existence of custom designs prove some high status folk liked it. Salvavirgo is a Navaja in a woman's possession. It's nickname (virginity saviour) indicates it's purpose, which was useful in Spain which had periods of incompetent law enforcement. In game terms it would be something to give a female PC much like a Naginata. But either a male or female can handle it. Broadsword. A classic for Medieval's of high enough status to afford the ironmongery of a real sword. Side Sword. A town sword rather than a miltary one, though presumably officers would carry it if it was to their taste, at least infantry ones who need only a side arm for direct self-defense and administering discipline (cavalry officers get into the thick of it and need something heavy). A side sword is less heavy than a proper broadsword but has enough mass to cut as well as thrust. Rapier: ancestor of the modern epee. A nearly pure thrusting sword: often edged to prevent grasping and allow non-lethal cuts as a secondary attack (in the movie Rob Roy, the villain used this to bleed out the hero partly because it was a legitimate tactic but partly to toy with his opponent). Often paired with a left hand device such as a buckler, cloak, or main-gauche dagger. Small Sword: The final evolution of the Rapier. By this time it was mainly a dueling piece, though it might be useful to have around if going into a bad part of town. |
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You could always combine them, like in "Kung Fu Antipopes"... |
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For the fun of it, here are names suggested above for chi-like "inner" sources of power, from a non=East=Asian perspective:
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(Or create a new power source that isn't chi. I think I'd pass on that myself, though, simply to avoid power source overload: chi, psi, Power Investiture, magery/mana, all the weird variants in Summoners...) A couple of thoughts: 1) Here's an interesting (?) setup: A Christian monastic order with the heretical belief that the super-feats of Moses, Samson, Jesus, etc. came from this inner ruach. They may hold that the Divine inspired these heroes, guided them, maybe even granted them Ruach Talent and its associated skills and powers... but the "miracles" themselves were enacted by the practitioners, from that inner strength, not by calling on Divine power. From there, the GM can create Ruach Abilities like Walk on Water, Strength of Samson, and Heal Disease. (Of course, some reported miracles fit the idea more easily than others. Unleash Plagues is a little hard to envision as a chi-like power.) 2) The (great) book Slayers grants demon/undead/mage slayers powers similar to those of holy warriors and clerics, but without a divine power source, or any external power source. The abilities stem from internal "force of will" – but it's not chi or psi, and doesn't carry the limitations of those. But maybe the gameworld philosophers disagree, and posit that the source is chi/ruach/pneuma/etc. The difference with slayers is that this source appears for reasons of its own (as briefly described in the book), rather than being granted like Power Investiture or developed like chi; thus, no limitations involving vows or special exercises, and no need for a trait like Ruach Talent. In other words, slayers' powers work just as described in the book, and any connection to a chi-like power source is purely a matter of background color, not mechanics. But it's interesting IMO to imagine that slayers might share this source with martial artists, even if it manifests quite differently. |
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And don't forget the Irish Monks - after all those viking raids they added Anàil Beatha to their resumé. We all know how powerful Uisce Beatha is - just imagine Anàil...
Chi is cheesy, give me Anàil of Eireann! Of course, a lot depends on how you pronounce it - might get a bit NSFW if your garlic is as bad as mine. PS given that Uisce Beatha is pronounced whiskey baha; Samhain is sowain; ¿Anàil ≈ Ownail? (of iren). Maybe too drole... |
Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
From what I can tell, the way Martial Artists in DF function is that they maintain a special diet and do special daily exercises, and as a result have access to a variety of superhuman abilities. They also have access to the more advanced unarmed combat skills (Karate and Judo).
It occurs to me that an in-genre approach may be to have Chi be "scientific" in nature - after all, Karate (and Boxing) and Judo are often considered more scientific approaches to combat (as opposed to the more instinctive Brawling and Wrestling). In this case, careful regulation of diet and exercise grants one a state of more balanced humors than a normal person can achieve, unlocking true human potential, and allowing them - with appropriate practice - to do the sorts of things legendary heroes could achieve, like quelling a large number of foes with a single shout (Kiai), breaking a massive stone with a single strike (Shattering Blow), leaping over canyons (Flying Leap), running over thin ice or leaving no trail over soft mud (Light Walk), etc. Just give Chi a different name and fluff it up as being a consequence of supremely balanced humors, and there you go. As for the name, apparently "humor" is a translation of the Greek word χυμός, which is pronounced something like chi-mos... so in theory, you could actually still call it Chi, with the understanding this is short for χυμός (which, according to Wikipedia, literally means juice or sap, and is metaphorically used to mean flavor). EDIT: I'm not sure what you'd actually call the class, however. Also, some of the more anime-inspired options that show up in later books/articles - like being able to throw chi blasts - may not be appropriate, but I think the mechanical core of the class as it was presented in DF1 would be maintained. |
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Something like a berserker, either Scandinavian or Celtic (e.g. Cu Chulain's riastrad), would also fit the bill. In this case, there would be a society of practitioners that survived into the medieval period, refining their "divine rage" into a powerful unarmed and -armored martial art with supernatural overtones. |
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There is one YouTuber who took a close look at the monk class in D&D 5e and realized that almost none of their abilities actually require them to act like Shaolin monks (look up full plate monk). The few "while wearing no armor and fighting unarmed or using a monk weapon" abilities are mostly focused on making monk weapons more useful, which he got around by just using an effective weapon that didn't need the mystic power up.
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Overanalysis ahead:
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Of course, for DF, our Martial Artist (or whatever name is appropriate for a more-European-themed option) doesn't need to perfectly emulate the Monk of ToG, of any edition. |
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The Chi Limitation is one that requires the character to have a specific Disadvantage, Disciplines of Faith (Chi) [-10]. This Disadvantage itself requires the character to spend 1d hours every day meditating and/or exercising, and also have to pay twice as much for food (to represent both a special diet and having other consumables, like incense), which is something of a defining characteristic as well (hence my suggestion of fluffing this as balancing one's humors via diet and exercise). Quote:
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Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
If you've ever read the Mongoliad, the Shield Brethren call their fighting style oplomach, and it is very comprehensive. (And obviously derivative of "hoplomachia".)
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Cú Chulainn was trained by Scáthach.
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Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
Another option I can't believe I didn't think of earlier is the possibility that martial arts might be associated with non-humans—anything from elves, to half-celestials, to an ancient dwarven civilization with many long-lost secrets.
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1. Hercules does kung fu. 2. God's brass knuckles - putting the monk back in Martial Artist 3. Better living through chemistry. Or all three if you wanted fights between rival martial arts schools. |
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I had Shadow Elves as the source of ninja in my DF game, FWIW.
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So, yeah, isolated elves as the source of ninjas can work pretty well. |
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If I remember Savate was a refinement of brawling techniques and was used by French sailors going into port.
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Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
If you're looking for inspiration for ninja aside from East Asia, the Order of Assassins might be a good starting point. It's a religious order so you've got a justification for mystic skills and abilities in addition to conventional assassin skills.
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The Ninja template is an assassin template; if you wish to add exotic or supernatural traits to it, that's what it is. "Shadow powers" for instance may be a thing for some secret assassin organizations - not much from different from a Mages Guild teaching spells, or the Alchemists Guild teaching potions. For example, the Elder Scrolls games (Oblivion, Skyrim etc) have the Assassins guild, and those arent nipponic "ninjas", and they still teach many regular and supernatural abilities. |
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Now, personally, I'm not a huge fan of some of the idiosyncrasies of the DF Ninja - in no small part because I'm not a fan of the esoteric skills (they just seem... off), although I also dislike the silliness of "Fast-Draw ninja-to, strike, drop it; Fast-Draw nunchaku, strike, drop it; Fast-Draw jutte, strike, drop it; etc." My own inclination would be to allow Weapon Master to be narrowed down even to a single weapon (while most ninja are trained with all manner of ninja weapons, having one who favors a particular type - like the Oniwabanshu from Rurouni Kenshin, each of whom often had a favored weapon (Aoshi's kodachi, Misao's kunai, Okina's tonfa, etc) - shouldn't be uncommon, with such characters likely having skill (and familiarity) with the other weapons, but on Weapon Master for their favorite, probably modify Killing Strike to simply be a once-per-encounter ability (representing a strike meant to be used for an assassination, without the "But I can just swap weapons!" workaround), and make the esoteric skills optional (and/or replace then with Advantages that do the same thing). But that's my own idea of what a Ninja template should look like; the DF authors had their own idea and went with it. |
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In my game the Ninja typically just hit each thing once to get killing strike with his ninjato and poison it, vanishing between targets of course. Although I also had about double the ninja powers and power-ups available.
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Take the game Assassins' Creed, the protagonist is a western assassin; he is the quintessential ninja through and through. There's no difference between that and a ninja, except being in either Europe or Japan. |
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Likewise the same applies to any other kind of exotic or supernatural traits. Unless the setting is such that Japan is a magic land, if those are learned traits, any assassin from Jamaica or Finland or Botswana could learn those. Sure, there may be differences from place to place, but those arent traits intrinsic to a very specific kind of assassins from Japan. In fact, the entire mystic about ninjas and samurais is a lot more legend than truth. In fact, medieval european warriors were probably far superior in almost all aspects. I particularly see no reason why not allowing an european, or african or middle eastern, "ninja-like" assassin kind of the one from Assassins' Creed game for example. In my opnion, an ottoman Janissary or euroepean Templar would be just as effective, if not more. |
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Now I'm visualizing the five minute pause after an encounter while the ninja finds, gathers up, and stows away all the weapons he used and dropped. Or the scene in several Ranma fanfics where someone disrupts the Hidden Weapons experts chi and he finds himself buried under all the weapons he was carrying.
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I think we are having a bit of miscommunication. I know that assassins and ninjas are different DF templates. That's not what Im refering to.
What I mean is that you dont need to take inspiration on assassins using kimonos and wodden sandals to make a similar character. For a DF game, any assassin that uses powers and gadgets is a "ninja"; you may even call them "Shadow Dancers" or whatever other name you'd like. That was the OP's question, if it's possible to have a "ninja" that doesnt necessarily have to take influence from Eastern aesthetics. To which my answer is yes, absolutely. I understand what you're saying, the DF "ninja" has powers and gadgets that the assassin dont have. Im not denying this, and that wasnt what I was refering. What I meant is that a ninja - in specific, a DF ninja - is simply an assassin that trade some skills for specific powers and gadgets. The several protagonists from the Assassins' Creed series could very well play the role of DF "ninjas" for example, without being eastern driven. I dont know if I made myself clearer this time... Do you know understand what I mean? Or is it still dubious? Sometimes things seem to be clear in my mind, but I realize that this is only true for my own mind, because people always get confused, so perhaps Im not being able to explain it as clearly as I believe that it makes sense in my head, so that's why Im asking. |
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