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Michael Thayne 07-23-2022 09:34 AM

[Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Dungeon Fantasy Martial Artists are a bit of an odd man out. The other "core" professions all have roots in fantasy fiction and RPGs primarily (if loosely) based off Medieval Europe. The Martial Artist, on the other hand, has its roots in Chinese and Japanese martial arts. Sure, the barbarian template also represents an exotic foreigner—but often one from a mere few hundred miles away, as opposed to several thousand miles away. So I'm wondering about historical precedents for something that could justify using the mechanics of the Martial Artist without feeling so out of place. One thing that comes to mind, oddly, is to portray them as a sort of cinematic version of ancient Olympic athletes. But it might be that people know of other historical precedents. Thoughts?

SilvercatMoonpaw 07-23-2022 09:38 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
I remember coming across a Youtube video of two guys demonstrating a medieval European unarmed combat style called......Twirch Ringen? I'm sure someone who deals with the subject more then me can remember the right name.

There's also Pankration, the Ancient Greek wrestling art.

johndallman 07-23-2022 09:55 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne (Post 2444455)
Dungeon Fantasy Martial Artists are a bit of an odd man out. The other "core" professions all have roots in fantasy fiction and RPGs primarily (if loosely) based off Medieval Europe. The Martial Artist, on the other hand, has its roots in Chinese and Japanese martial arts.

It comes from OD&D and AD&D1e Monks, who first appeared in Blackmoor in 1975. They were inspired by the Kung Fu TV series, which started in 1972, and more or less created the image of oriental martial arts in western popular culture.

khorboth 07-23-2022 10:11 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Do you need a historical analog?

In the European middle ages, the Catholic church suppressed all kinds of mysticism. No church, no supression. So, you could just move a neo-berzerker into a more spiritual role. Or if the Celts endured, it's not unlikely they would have developed something similar.

The pressures which created unarmed fighting techniques were the banning of weapons for commoners. Anywhere that's sustained, people will invent.

But if you're in full-on DF, just add handwavium.

The Colonel 07-23-2022 11:17 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
What are we meaning by "martial arts"? Because Western Europe had a martial arts tradition every bit as rich as the East - there are multiple societies specifically dedicated to researching and recreating the martial arts of the European Middle Ages and Renaissance - and, I think, one that is Viking themed, although whether that is a themed invention or historical research is unknown to me.
If we mean unarmed combat - sadly sportification and the arrival of Eastern styles had probably meant that European Freestyle and anything resembling true Pankration have disappeared into MMA, but in reality, that's what happens to unarmed combat skills: the MMA exponents have more or less proven that Eastern style fossilization doesn't help.

tbone 07-23-2022 12:07 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
I think I've related this before, but: When I started gaming with D&D, my local gaming group simply wasn't familiar with "monk" in the sense of Shaolin Temple monk. We pictured the monk class as tonsured, monastic, European monks. Who, for some reason, had weird powers and weapons. We really didn't ask why; it was D&D.

But to address the OP: As others have said, there's no shortage of martial arts styles, techniques, legendary abilities, etc. all over the world. Martial Arts does a pretty great job of surveying non-East Asian fighting, complete with weird cinematic skills and crazy weapons. You can assume that advanced practitioners of some of these can tap into the universal power of chi, even if their "chi" goes by a different name, is understood through different traditions, is honed through different rituals, and yields a different set of disciplines.

The results might not be very historical, but they could be fun. (Especially a secret order of Euro monks, drawing on chi but through some philosophical lens of Gnosticism, Hermeticism, or whatever.)

(Question for all: In historical belief systems outside of Asia, what might might be the closest equivalents to the "chi" of the Far East or the "prana" of Hinduism?)

Dalillama 07-23-2022 12:24 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Question for all: In historical belief systems outside of Asia, what might might be the closest equivalents to the "chi" of the Far East or the "prana" of Hinduism?)

In Classical Greece it was called Pneuma, and Christian mystics carried that term across Europe later on. In Arabic the word is Baraka, and in Hebrew Ruach. All the terms listed literally mean "breath" except baraka which means blessing. I don't recalls any other names offhand, but you won't go far wrong usually by looking for the local term for meditative breathing.

Michael Thayne 07-23-2022 12:25 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw (Post 2444457)
I remember coming across a Youtube video of two guys demonstrating a medieval European unarmed combat style called......Twirch Ringen? I'm sure someone who deals with the subject more then me can remember the right name.

There's also Pankration, the Ancient Greek wrestling art.

Pankration crossed my mind as potentially helpful here—though I don't know that feel-wise it suits "cinematic" or "chi" abilities that go beyond just being really strong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndallman (Post 2444459)
It comes from OD&D and AD&D1e Monks, who first appeared in Blackmoor in 1975. They were inspired by the Kung Fu TV series, which started in 1972, and more or less created the image of oriental martial arts in western popular culture.

I was vaguely aware that Monks had been in D&D since 1st edition, but didn't know the details. Thanks for the history lesson!

Quote:

Originally Posted by khorboth (Post 2444461)
Do you need a historical analog?

In the European middle ages, the Catholic church suppressed all kinds of mysticism. No church, no supression. So, you could just move a neo-berzerker into a more spiritual role. Or if the Celts endured, it's not unlikely they would have developed something similar.

The pressures which created unarmed fighting techniques were the banning of weapons for commoners. Anywhere that's sustained, people will invent.

But if you're in full-on DF, just add handwavium.

Dungeon Fantasy martial artists don't have to fight unarmed, though all have at least a couple points in Judo and Karate. I'm more concerned about the mystical side of things. While I guess you don't strictly "need" a historical precedent, ideas on alternate flavorings would be nice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Colonel (Post 2444463)
What are we meaning by "martial arts"? Because Western Europe had a martial arts tradition every bit as rich as the East - there are multiple societies specifically dedicated to researching and recreating the martial arts of the European Middle Ages and Renaissance - and, I think, one that is Viking themed, although whether that is a themed invention or historical research is unknown to me.
If we mean unarmed combat - sadly sportification and the arrival of Eastern styles had probably meant that European Freestyle and anything resembling true Pankration have disappeared into MMA, but in reality, that's what happens to unarmed combat skills: the MMA exponents have more or less proven that Eastern style fossilization doesn't help.

By "martial arts" I mean the Martial Artist template in Dungeon Fantasy, complete with both cinematic skills and a specific interpretation of chi-abilities-as-powers.

Michael Thayne 07-23-2022 02:57 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
One of the more unusual things Martial Artists get in Dungeon Fantasy specifically is Enhanced Move at either level 0.5 or level 1. Would be interesting to find some good examples of legendary heroes described as being "swift as a hawk" or similar.

Phantasm 07-23-2022 05:34 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
I'd be very tempted to look into something along the lines of Ancient Greek Pankration or Indian Wrestling.

Savate is also interesting, although anachronistic in more realistic settings - but this is DF! DF is not realistic! Savateurs unite!

JulianLW 07-23-2022 06:07 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
If you're looking for medieval monk warriors, you could just call them Templars. People think they're using secret magic, but really .. it's the chi.

martinl 07-23-2022 06:10 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
There are also multiple non-human cultures to assign the idea to.

Perhaps there are martial artists are following a dwarvish tradition that idealizes being tough enough to break rocks with your bare hands, or a catfolk one focused on fighting with only their gods given claws, or even just declare halfling shaolin are a thing and run with it. Alternately, blame the hellgnome gninja - they're always up to shenanigans.

The thing where DF towns look like late MA early Ren euro culture is not meant to be a plausible model, really. It's gonzo fantasy so you can justify almost anything.

Michael Thayne 07-23-2022 06:35 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Thinking about this more, the "cinematic martial arts skills" and "chi abilities" used in Dungeon Fantasy don't necessarily have to have anything to do with monks or chi. Mechanics-wise, any flavor of Charles Atlas Super Power works, I think. Maybe I should take a hard look at certain Golden Age comic-books for inspiration—apparently the Golden Age Wonder Woman got her powers from "Amazonian concentration".

Agemegos 07-23-2022 07:06 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JulianLW (Post 2444488)
If you're looking for medieval monk warriors, you could just call them Templars. People think they're using secret magic, but really .. it's the chi.

The historical Templars (and their more successful colleagues the Hospitallers) were monks in a very real and legally-binding sense and full-time professional experts in historical European martial arts, but they were usually a tad heavily armoured for your archetypal martial artist. When I imposed dungeon fantasy archetypes on vaguely mediaeval I-can't-believe-it's-not-Europe settings I made the Hospitallers out to be paladins, and gave the "monk" abilities to Franciscan friars such as Friar Tuck.

sir_pudding 07-23-2022 08:00 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
The ninja is probably nearly inseparable from the 80s ninja craze that inspired it. Removing it is basically why the assassin exists.

Infornific 07-23-2022 11:51 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
What distinguishes the DFRPG Martial Artist from other fighter types isn't strictly speaking "martial arts" or fighting skill but the access to special chi abilities. So I would focus on alternate ways of justifying accessing chi abilities.

If you want to link to a fantasy version of ancient Greeks, you could treat it as lost secrets of ancient pagan philosophy. Maybe call it Arete instead of Chi, or something similar. Possibly look at Pankration as their core combat training. If your Clerics are knockoffs of Christianity, that could lead to Clerics and Martial Artists regarding each other with some suspicion. That could also tie Martial Artists closer to Wrestlers. Personally the Wrestler template always makes me think of the old Hercules films.

"Now, you will stay by my side and I'll teach you to fight. But not only with your hands. And some day, your friends and enemies will honor you and name you the wise." - Hercules (1958)

An alternate more radical thought would be to put the Monk back into Martial Artists. Make the Martial Artist a variant of the Holy Warrior - peasants and other commoners recruited to serve as guards and foot soldiers for the Church. Because they come from lowly backgrounds, their combat training reflects the tools available. They channel divine will to strengthen their bodies and martial prowess. They act as God's brass knuckles. In this variation, the Divine limitation replaces Chi but prayer & meditation still matter.

Pursuivant 07-24-2022 02:08 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tbone (Post 2444466)
I think I've related this before, but: When I started gaming with D&D, my local gaming group simply wasn't familiar with "monk" in the sense of Shaolin Temple monk.

This led to the trope of characters who looked like Friar Tuck laying the smack-down on.

Historical Euro-Style martial monks were closer to "Holy Warriors" in DF, and correspond to knightly orders such as the Teutonic Knights, Hospitallers, and Templars.


Quote:

Originally Posted by tbone (Post 2444466)
(Question for all: In historical belief systems outside of Asia, what might might be the closest equivalents to the "chi" of the Far East or the "prana" of Hinduism?)

The Ancient Greek or medieval European equivalent might be "Pneuma". Early 20th century sociologists used the term "Numen" to describe the concept of magical power inherent to an object, similar to GURPS Mana. The original Roman term seems to describe something different, however, defining it as a sort of divine power or divine will. Modern Christian writers sometimes reference the Quaker term, "Inner Light."

tbone 07-24-2022 04:03 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuivant (Post 2444518)
This led to the trope of characters who looked like Friar Tuck laying the smack-down on.

Historical Euro-Style martial monks were closer to "Holy Warriors" in DF, and correspond to knightly orders such as the Teutonic Knights, Hospitallers, and Templars.

Friar Tuck is a pretty good inspiration for a martial artist character who's not a knight, gladiator, etc. The typical depiction of Tuck shares a lot with warrior monk Benkei.

I suppose Tuck can easily be built simply as a priest with unusually good fighting abilities. But reimagined as a full-fledged holy warrior? I can see that; holy warriors don't have to be all about swords and armor.

Now, replace his holy-powered abilities with chi-powered abilities, and he'd be a great fit for the OP concept.

tbone 07-24-2022 04:05 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martinl (Post 2444489)
blame the hellgnome gninja

"Gninja". Heh. : )

Agemegos 07-24-2022 06:13 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Infornific (Post 2444506)
An alternate more radical thought would be to put the Monk back into Martial Artists. Make the Martial Artist a variant of the Holy Warrior - peasants and other commoners recruited to serve as guards and foot soldiers for the Church. Because they come from lowly backgrounds, their combat training reflects the tools available. They channel divine will to strengthen their bodies and martial prowess. They act as God's brass knuckles. In this variation, the Divine limitation replaces Chi but prayer & meditation still matter.

The Templars and Hospitallers, and perhaps other holy fighting orders, had three social grades of soldiers. There were brother-knights from aristocratic families in western Europe, and brother-sergeants* also from the West but lacking the aristocratic status, and as a third class "turcopoles" recruited in the East (and not entitled to retire to comfy commanderies in the West when their tours of duty in Outremer were done, but paid instead). Turcopoles were more lightly armed than knights and sergeants, but there is, sadly, no reason to suppose that they were taught esoteric unarmed fighting arts.

_____

* "Sergeant" meant "servant" at the beginning of the relevant period.

Michael Thayne 07-24-2022 11:29 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Infornific (Post 2444506)
What distinguishes the DFRPG Martial Artist from other fighter types isn't strictly speaking "martial arts" or fighting skill but the access to special chi abilities. So I would focus on alternate ways of justifying accessing chi abilities.

If you want to link to a fantasy version of ancient Greeks, you could treat it as lost secrets of ancient pagan philosophy. Maybe call it Arete instead of Chi, or something similar. Possibly look at Pankration as their core combat training. If your Clerics are knockoffs of Christianity, that could lead to Clerics and Martial Artists regarding each other with some suspicion. That could also tie Martial Artists closer to Wrestlers. Personally the Wrestler template always makes me think of the old Hercules films.

"Now, you will stay by my side and I'll teach you to fight. But not only with your hands. And some day, your friends and enemies will honor you and name you the wise." - Hercules (1958)

This is very much in line what I'm looking for. Maybe their particular brand of Meditation is contemplation of the Platonic forms? (Or perhaps "universals" to avoid referencing a specific real-world philosopher.)

martinl 07-24-2022 11:43 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tbone (Post 2444525)
"Gninja". Heh. : )

psst, tbone: go here
(edit) - tbone was the first person to comment on the original thread. lol (end edit)

Ob Mainthread:

The modern "unarmored, often unarmed badass" martial artist is at least in part due to folks who had to fight when fighting equipment was restricted. So they don't use armor and specialize in weapons that are also tools and outright unarmed combat. A reputation for being outright supernatural doesn't hurt either. (For genre reasons, we make this a more feasible strategy compared to weapons and armor than realism would dictate.)

If you want to justify this in your DF game (and to be clear, justifying anything in DF is optional) you can duplicate the above circumstances quite easily.

tbone 07-24-2022 11:58 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martinl (Post 2444573)
psst, tbone: go here
(edit) - tbone was the first person to comment on the original thread. lol (end edit)

I have no memory of seeing that before. Scary!

Phil Masters 07-25-2022 06:23 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tbone (Post 2444524)
Friar Tuck is a pretty good inspiration for a martial artist character who's not a knight, gladiator, etc.

I seem to recall that St Benedict promoted the idea of teaching boxing to youths so they'd have a way of defending themselves, and if they really insisted, settling disputes, without carrying and habitually drawing knives - teenage male groups with a lot of knives having a rather tragic death rate. One could imagine an alternate history where that led to a legend of monasteries full of fist-fighting monks in the (Swiss) mountains.

I forget where I saw the idea, but gladiators might be the best candidates to take the role of monk-substitutes in quasi-classical dungeon bash campaigns. Continual combat training, check; enforced ascetic lifestyle, check; lighter armour than is available to close combat fighters in their setting, check; gratuitously weird and exotic combat styles compared to the run of sword-and-board fighters around them, check...

For mystical powers combined with and related to combat training, I guess there's the relationship that apparently existed between Spanish fencing schools and the Hermetic tradition - all very formal and ritualistic. And for that matter, candomblé and capoeira may have some links, I understand.

Michael Thayne 07-25-2022 11:15 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
One other thing that occurred to me is that in Dungeon Fantasy, Meditation is mandatory for Martial Artists. It's also mandatory for Shamans as defined in DF9. What if Martial Artists used Shamanic meditation techniques?

Dalillama 07-25-2022 11:22 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne (Post 2444673)
One other thing that occurred to me is that in Dungeon Fantasy, Meditation is mandatory for Martial Artists. It's also mandatory for Shamans as defined in DF9. What if Martial Artists used Shamanic meditation techniques?

Making Martial Artists a type of shaman could work; they're imbued with powers by animal spirits, but they have to fight in ways that symbolically emulate the animals, which means lots of bare handed fighting and weapons chosen for aesthetic reasons.

Mr_Sandman 07-25-2022 12:14 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Masters (Post 2444647)
For mystical powers combined with and related to combat training, I guess there's the relationship that apparently existed between Spanish fencing schools and the Hermetic tradition - all very formal and ritualistic. And for that matter, candomblé and capoeira may have some links, I understand.

For those who have studied their Agrippa, and their Agrippa.

dcarson 07-25-2022 02:53 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
While much later in general you do have the Muscular Christianity movement. That promotes sports, exercise and physical development as supporting moral development. Is/was big on boxing for example.

Willy 07-25-2022 05:26 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
The european middle ages have some nice examples. Besides the use of swords, shields and other better known weapons, a lot of other skills were taught.

Brawling was very common, but also refined skills like "Leibringen mit dem Dolch" wrestling with daggers, and a good deal of other skills, like groundfighting techniques. Sadly most of this skills and techniques, as well as the books that thaught them weren´t fashionable later and sometimes completely forgotten.

Most of the old Fechtbücher tell a bit about hand to hand and self defense, it was fairly common knowledge of the time. Anyone trying to attack a unarmed knight or professional fighter of this time is in for a very rude surprise, if he thinks just having a black belt is enough to win. That´s more the Hollywood and movie reality of medieval fighting, or computer games to be a bit more modern.

Here a bit from the source of all knowledge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martia...n_martial_arts

Maybe you look at the names and try to find some of their stuff at https://www.gutenberg.org/ so. There are also some good vids from reenactment groups in the web.

SilvercatMoonpaw 07-25-2022 05:30 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Other "European" names for chi:
* Aether
* Odic force
* Elan vital
* Vril

jason taylor 07-25-2022 09:03 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
European martial arts might include quarterstaff. Also that Irish walking stick with the cute name.

jason taylor 07-26-2022 07:48 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Stilletto: Aside from being a traditional feature of mafia feuds it was used presumably by the jealous husband that according to legend instigated the Sicilian Vespers by stabbing a Frenchman indulging in harassment. It is descended from the knightly mercy dagger and is an optimized stabbing knife with no other practical use. But when it does stab it stabs well due to the needle like blade. Good for an assassin, reasonable as a sidearm, or a main-gauche.

Navaja/Salvavirgo: Mostly a peasant's weapon in Spain but the existence of custom designs prove some high status folk liked it. Salvavirgo is a Navaja in a woman's possession. It's nickname (virginity saviour) indicates it's purpose, which was useful in Spain which had periods of incompetent law enforcement. In game terms it would be something to give a female PC much like a Naginata. But either a male or female can handle it.

Broadsword. A classic for Medieval's of high enough status to afford the ironmongery of a real sword.

Side Sword. A town sword rather than a miltary one, though presumably officers would carry it if it was to their taste, at least infantry ones who need only a side arm for direct self-defense and administering discipline (cavalry officers get into the thick of it and need something heavy). A side sword is less heavy than a proper broadsword but has enough mass to cut as well as thrust.

Rapier: ancestor of the modern epee. A nearly pure thrusting sword: often edged to prevent grasping and allow non-lethal cuts as a secondary attack (in the movie Rob Roy, the villain used this to bleed out the hero partly because it was a legitimate tactic but partly to toy with his opponent). Often paired with a left hand device such as a buckler, cloak, or main-gauche dagger.

Small Sword: The final evolution of the Rapier. By this time it was mainly a dueling piece, though it might be useful to have around if going into a bad part of town.

Mad Bad Rabbit 07-26-2022 08:11 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tbone (Post 2444466)
I think I've related this before, but: When I started gaming with D&D, my local gaming group simply wasn't familiar with "monk" in the sense of Shaolin Temple monk. We pictured the monk class as tonsured, monastic, European monks. Who, for some reason, had weird powers and weapons. We really didn't ask why; it was D&D.


You could always combine them, like in "Kung Fu Antipopes"...

tbone 07-26-2022 09:43 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
For the fun of it, here are names suggested above for chi-like "inner" sources of power, from a non=East=Asian perspective:

Quote:

Pneuma (Classical Greece)
Baraka (Arabic)
Ruach (Hebrew)
Arete
Numen (early 20th century)
Inner Light (Quakers)
Aether
Odic force
Elan vital
Vril
Prana
Going back to the OP, a GM could take one of these, define it as chi under a different name, and create cool powers based it, for Euro monks or dervishes or what have you.

(Or create a new power source that isn't chi. I think I'd pass on that myself, though, simply to avoid power source overload: chi, psi, Power Investiture, magery/mana, all the weird variants in Summoners...)

A couple of thoughts:

1) Here's an interesting (?) setup: A Christian monastic order with the heretical belief that the super-feats of Moses, Samson, Jesus, etc. came from this inner ruach. They may hold that the Divine inspired these heroes, guided them, maybe even granted them Ruach Talent and its associated skills and powers... but the "miracles" themselves were enacted by the practitioners, from that inner strength, not by calling on Divine power.

From there, the GM can create Ruach Abilities like Walk on Water, Strength of Samson, and Heal Disease. (Of course, some reported miracles fit the idea more easily than others. Unleash Plagues is a little hard to envision as a chi-like power.)

2) The (great) book Slayers grants demon/undead/mage slayers powers similar to those of holy warriors and clerics, but without a divine power source, or any external power source. The abilities stem from internal "force of will" – but it's not chi or psi, and doesn't carry the limitations of those.

But maybe the gameworld philosophers disagree, and posit that the source is chi/ruach/pneuma/etc. The difference with slayers is that this source appears for reasons of its own (as briefly described in the book), rather than being granted like Power Investiture or developed like chi; thus, no limitations involving vows or special exercises, and no need for a trait like Ruach Talent.

In other words, slayers' powers work just as described in the book, and any connection to a chi-like power source is purely a matter of background color, not mechanics. But it's interesting IMO to imagine that slayers might share this source with martial artists, even if it manifests quite differently.

David Johnston2 07-26-2022 10:36 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne (Post 2444455)
Dungeon Fantasy Martial Artists are a bit of an odd man out. The other "core" professions all have roots in fantasy fiction and RPGs primarily (if loosely) based off Medieval Europe.

The clerics come from more than 1400 years earlier. I actually introduced (martial arts) monks into the Dragonlance setting reasoning that they had appeared while the gods were on vacation, the monks teaching meditation and philosophy to fill the void, a religion that considered gods to be possibly existent, but irrelevant to the things that really mattered. I remember a fantasy novel where ninja-like martial artists created their skills as part of a revolutionary movement against a ruling class of "witches", using stealth to catch them off guard.

jacobmuller 07-27-2022 09:32 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
And don't forget the Irish Monks - after all those viking raids they added Anàil Beatha to their resumé. We all know how powerful Uisce Beatha is - just imagine Anàil...
Chi is cheesy, give me Anàil of Eireann!
Of course, a lot depends on how you pronounce it - might get a bit NSFW if your garlic is as bad as mine.
PS given that Uisce Beatha is pronounced whiskey baha; Samhain is sowain; ¿Anàil ≈ Ownail? (of iren). Maybe too drole...

Varyon 07-27-2022 10:04 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
From what I can tell, the way Martial Artists in DF function is that they maintain a special diet and do special daily exercises, and as a result have access to a variety of superhuman abilities. They also have access to the more advanced unarmed combat skills (Karate and Judo).

It occurs to me that an in-genre approach may be to have Chi be "scientific" in nature - after all, Karate (and Boxing) and Judo are often considered more scientific approaches to combat (as opposed to the more instinctive Brawling and Wrestling). In this case, careful regulation of diet and exercise grants one a state of more balanced humors than a normal person can achieve, unlocking true human potential, and allowing them - with appropriate practice - to do the sorts of things legendary heroes could achieve, like quelling a large number of foes with a single shout (Kiai), breaking a massive stone with a single strike (Shattering Blow), leaping over canyons (Flying Leap), running over thin ice or leaving no trail over soft mud (Light Walk), etc. Just give Chi a different name and fluff it up as being a consequence of supremely balanced humors, and there you go. As for the name, apparently "humor" is a translation of the Greek word χυμός, which is pronounced something like chi-mos... so in theory, you could actually still call it Chi, with the understanding this is short for χυμός (which, according to Wikipedia, literally means juice or sap, and is metaphorically used to mean flavor).

EDIT: I'm not sure what you'd actually call the class, however. Also, some of the more anime-inspired options that show up in later books/articles - like being able to throw chi blasts - may not be appropriate, but I think the mechanical core of the class as it was presented in DF1 would be maintained.

thrash 07-27-2022 01:23 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martinl (Post 2444573)
The modern "unarmored, often unarmed badass" martial artist is at least in part due to folks who had to fight when fighting equipment was restricted. So they don't use armor and specialize in weapons that are also tools and outright unarmed combat. A reputation for being outright supernatural doesn't hurt either.

This would typically imply a marginalized, conquered, or oppressed subculture, or a society with politically imposed restrictions on weapons use. For medieval Europe, that immediately calls to mind the Jews. A qabalah-based secret art (perhaps anachronistically modeled after Krav Maga) that was developed to protect Jewish communities from their persecutors would work. Plenty of room here for the "don't mess with the old man in rags" trope.

Something like a berserker, either Scandinavian or Celtic (e.g. Cu Chulain's riastrad), would also fit the bill. In this case, there would be a society of practitioners that survived into the medieval period, refining their "divine rage" into a powerful unarmed and -armored martial art with supernatural overtones.

RyanW 07-28-2022 01:34 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
There is one YouTuber who took a close look at the monk class in D&D 5e and realized that almost none of their abilities actually require them to act like Shaolin monks (look up full plate monk). The few "while wearing no armor and fighting unarmed or using a monk weapon" abilities are mostly focused on making monk weapons more useful, which he got around by just using an effective weapon that didn't need the mystic power up.

Varyon 07-28-2022 10:09 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanW (Post 2445035)
There is one YouTuber who took a close look at the monk class in D&D 5e and realized that almost none of their abilities actually require them to act like Shaolin monks (look up full plate monk). The few "while wearing no armor and fighting unarmed or using a monk weapon" abilities are mostly focused on making monk weapons more useful, which he got around by just using an effective weapon that didn't need the mystic power up.

That sounds like an error on the part of the designers, unless they specifically wanted to make "armored monk with a sword" a viable character option. While I never played as a Monk in 3.x, from looking at the class in the SRD, avoiding armor pays itself off rather effectively, at least if you opt for a high Wisdom (the monk bonus approximates wearing light armor, but lacks downsides such as armor check penalties or limiting the bonus you can get from Dexterity while also working even against touch attacks, can stack with Bracers of Armor unlike normal armor, and eventually results in an increased movement rate), and while monk weapons aren't great (1d6 and x2 crit), getting an additional attack (or 2 at higher levels) at only -2 to hit (relative to your maximum BAB, and this drops at higher levels, vanishing by level 9) is arguably worth it - particularly if you opt for dual-wielding, as this boosts the offhand weapon's damage to use your full Str bonus instead of half of it. Considering you'd likely have to give up 4 Feats to be able to wield a decent weapon and wear plate armor (grabbing either Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency, as well as Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor Proficiency; the first feat could be avoided if you're of a race that gets free proficiency in some weapon - like elves with Longswords - and opted to use said weapon), I'd say in 3.5 a Monk is best off staying unarmored and using Monk weapons.

Overanalysis ahead:
Spoiler:  



Of course, for DF, our Martial Artist (or whatever name is appropriate for a more-European-themed option) doesn't need to perfectly emulate the Monk of ToG, of any edition.

alforno 07-28-2022 12:11 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne (Post 2444455)
Dungeon Fantasy Martial Artists are a bit of an odd man out. The other "core" professions all have roots in fantasy fiction and RPGs primarily (if loosely) based off Medieval Europe. The Martial Artist, on the other hand, has its roots in Chinese and Japanese martial arts. Sure, the barbarian template also represents an exotic foreigner—but often one from a mere few hundred miles away, as opposed to several thousand miles away. So I'm wondering about historical precedents for something that could justify using the mechanics of the Martial Artist without feeling so out of place. One thing that comes to mind, oddly, is to portray them as a sort of cinematic version of ancient Olympic athletes. But it might be that people know of other historical precedents. Thoughts?

It sounds like you are mostly talking about unarmed martial arts, because we already have an abundance of weapons-based non-Asian martial arts. Two things that come to mind are wrestling and boxing. Pugilists throughout Western civilization have competed in these forms of unarmed combat throughout history. There are probably a few H.E.M.A. enthusiasts that focus on the history of these topics and those resources could be mined for ideas.

Varyon 07-28-2022 12:52 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alforno (Post 2445098)
It sounds like you are mostly talking about unarmed martial arts, because we already have an abundance of weapons-based non-Asian martial arts. Two things that come to mind are wrestling and boxing. Pugilists throughout Western civilization have competed in these forms of unarmed combat throughout history. There are probably a few H.E.M.A. enthusiasts that focus on the history of these topics and those resources could be mined for ideas.

The DF Martial Artist is defined by having high unarmed combat capabilities (I believe it's the only template in DF1 with access to Judo and/or Karate, as well as having Trained By a Master, and I believe it also has the highest default skill in unarmed combat), having access to Chi-based superpowers (DR, Regeneration, etc, all with Chi -10%), and utilizing esoteric skills (Breath Control, Flying Leap, Power Blow, etc). They're about the only template in DF1 that can be dedicated unarmed combatants, but they don't have to be - indeed, one of the Advantages you can opt for is Weapon Master, if you want your Sun Wukong / Son Goku expy (naturally, named Mago Gosora) to be an expert with staves.

The Chi Limitation is one that requires the character to have a specific Disadvantage, Disciplines of Faith (Chi) [-10]. This Disadvantage itself requires the character to spend 1d hours every day meditating and/or exercising, and also have to pay twice as much for food (to represent both a special diet and having other consumables, like incense), which is something of a defining characteristic as well (hence my suggestion of fluffing this as balancing one's humors via diet and exercise).

Quote:

Originally Posted by thrash (Post 2444981)
This would typically imply a marginalized, conquered, or oppressed subculture, or a society with politically imposed restrictions on weapons use. For medieval Europe, that immediately calls to mind the Jews. A qabalah-based secret art (perhaps anachronistically modeled after Krav Maga) that was developed to protect Jewish communities from their persecutors would work. Plenty of room here for the "don't mess with the old man in rags" trope.

That... works a lot better than it seems like it should, honestly. Disciplines of Faith (Chi) burns up 24.5 hours per week on meditation and exercise (average 3.5 hours per day for 7 days) and doubles the cost of rations. Refusing to adventure on the Sabbath would burn up 24 hours per week and requiring kosher food would boost the price of rations - probably not quite to x2, but we could still use that.

acrosome 07-28-2022 04:54 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
If you've ever read the Mongoliad, the Shield Brethren call their fighting style oplomach, and it is very comprehensive. (And obviously derivative of "hoplomachia".)

Michael Thayne 07-28-2022 05:12 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alforno (Post 2445098)
It sounds like you are mostly talking about unarmed martial arts, because we already have an abundance of weapons-based non-Asian martial arts. Two things that come to mind are wrestling and boxing. Pugilists throughout Western civilization have competed in these forms of unarmed combat throughout history. There are probably a few H.E.M.A. enthusiasts that focus on the history of these topics and those resources could be mined for ideas.

Should have been clearer about this. I was actually mainly talking about cinematic / chi skills. Oh well.

Dalillama 07-28-2022 05:23 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jason taylor (Post 2444749)
European martial arts might include quarterstaff. Also that Irish walking stick with the cute name.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacobmuller (Post 2444948)
And don't forget the Irish Monks - after all those viking raids they added Anàil Beatha to their resumé. We all know how powerful Uisce Beatha is - just imagine Anàil...
Chi is cheesy, give me Anàil of Eireann!
Of course, a lot depends on how you pronounce it - might get a bit NSFW if your garlic is as bad as mine.
PS given that Uisce Beatha is pronounced whiskey baha; Samhain is sowain; ¿Anàil ≈ Ownail? (of iren). Maybe too drole...

Anaìl is pronounced roughly (and depending on regional dialect) "Ah-nole", and for a mystical tradition probably Anaìl Beatha, "Ah-nole beha". There is an extensive tradition of stick and unarmed fighting in Ireland that could translate well to the Martial Artist template, variously called Coraíocht, Shillelagh, Collar-and-elbow, and Irish Shin-kicking, and Irish mythology offers plenty of legendary warriors who could run fast, jump around like fleas, dual wield, wrestle monsters, etc.

Michael Thayne 07-28-2022 10:33 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalillama (Post 2445145)
Anaìl is pronounced roughly (and depending on regional dialect) "Ah-nole", and for a mystical tradition probably Anaìl Beatha, "Ah-nole beha". There is an extensive tradition of stick and unarmed fighting in Ireland that could translate well to the Martial Artist template, variously called Coraíocht, Shillelagh, Collar-and-elbow, and Irish Shin-kicking, and Irish mythology offers plenty of legendary warriors who could run fast, jump around like fleas, dual wield, wrestle monsters, etc.

Interesting. This crossed my mind but a quick scan of GURPS Classic Myth didn't turn up anything. On a closer read, there's a fair discussion of superhuman abilities, but exclusively in the context of sidhe and part-sidhe characters. Furthermore the book explicitly says sidhe abilities require no training (CM75). I don't know if there are exceptions to that rule to be found in Celtic myth or not—certainly, the feats of heroes in other traditions seem to be a combination of blood and training. Though the real jackpot would be non-Asian traditions that take the stand anyone can be super through training.

sir_pudding 07-29-2022 03:44 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Cú Chulainn was trained by Scáthach.

Michael Thayne 07-29-2022 10:46 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Another option I can't believe I didn't think of earlier is the possibility that martial arts might be associated with non-humans—anything from elves, to half-celestials, to an ancient dwarven civilization with many long-lost secrets.

Dalillama 07-29-2022 03:34 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 2445186)
Cú Chulainn was trained by Scáthach.

Fionn Mac Cumhàil trained with the famous warriors Bodhmall and Liath Luachra.

Infornific 07-29-2022 08:23 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne (Post 2445143)
Should have been clearer about this. I was actually mainly talking about cinematic / chi skills. Oh well.

One other possibility comes to mind. Alchemists are philosophical & often interested in pursuing immortality and such through their concoctions. There might be an offshoot that comes up with various alchemical treatments to enhance themselves. Cost & need for alchemical supplements replaces the time & cost for maintaining chi powers. Dungeon delving helps fund research. If you want chi skills as well as powers, perhaps make Trained by a Master a result of alchemical progress that gives the user superior mastery over his body which can be channeled through the various chi skills. So you could go with:

1. Hercules does kung fu.
2. God's brass knuckles - putting the monk back in Martial Artist
3. Better living through chemistry.

Or all three if you wanted fights between rival martial arts schools.

sir_pudding 08-04-2022 07:49 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
I had Shadow Elves as the source of ninja in my DF game, FWIW.

Varyon 08-04-2022 09:35 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 2446097)
I had Shadow Elves as the source of ninja in my DF game, FWIW.

The Noble Dead book series had a distinct ethnic group of elves, the An'Croan ("of the blood"), who lived largely in isolation. Their anmaglahk ("thieves of lives") caste are basically ninjas - adept at stealth, killing, and advanced unarmed martial arts skills (they'd absolutely have Judo and Karate in GURPS), and they can even develop supernatural abilities related to stealth (their most competent members, the greimasg'ah - "shadow-grippers" - are able to merge into shadows and travel through them, although there's always the risk of losing oneself and outright ceasing to exist when doing so; one of them also trains a lesser anmaglahk how to do precision archery blind, based on feeling air currents, so they've clearly got other esoteric abilities as well).

So, yeah, isolated elves as the source of ninjas can work pretty well.

jason taylor 08-04-2022 10:54 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Agemegos (Post 2444534)
The Templars and Hospitallers, and perhaps other holy fighting orders, had three social grades of soldiers. There were brother-knights from aristocratic families in western Europe, and brother-sergeants* also from the West but lacking the aristocratic status, and as a third class "turcopoles" recruited in the East (and not entitled to retire to comfy commanderies in the West when their tours of duty in Outremer were done, but paid instead). Turcopoles were more lightly armed than knights and sergeants, but there is, sadly, no reason to suppose that they were taught esoteric unarmed fighting arts.

_____

* "Sergeant" meant "servant" at the beginning of the relevant period.

In practice sergeant seems to have meant armsman in English. In fact the German Feldweber is a more accurate description of a modern sergeant: he "weaves the field" (I.E. sews the formation together).

jason taylor 08-04-2022 10:56 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
If I remember Savate was a refinement of brawling techniques and was used by French sailors going into port.

warellis 08-04-2022 10:58 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 2446097)
I had Shadow Elves as the source of ninja in my DF game, FWIW.

The ones from Mystara?

Infornific 08-04-2022 07:56 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
If you're looking for inspiration for ninja aside from East Asia, the Order of Assassins might be a good starting point. It's a religious order so you've got a justification for mystic skills and abilities in addition to conventional assassin skills.

sir_pudding 08-05-2022 04:01 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by warellis (Post 2446128)
The ones from Mystara?

No, I don't even know anything about ninja in Mystara.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Infornific (Post 2446195)
If you're looking for inspiration for ninja aside from East Asia, the Order of Assassins might be a good starting point. It's a religious order so you've got a justification for mystic skills and abilities in addition to conventional assassin skills.

Presumably the assassin is a more logical fit there?

Infornific 08-05-2022 03:20 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 2446241)
No, I don't even know anything about ninja in Mystara.

The Shadow Elves are kind an alternative to the Drow from the Known World/Mystara. That is, an underground offshoot of Elves with distinct special abilities. It's an interesting take.


Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 2446241)
Presumably the assassin is a more logical fit there?

Did not know there was an assassin template. The poster was asking for non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists and Ninjas, so that's why I suggested the Order of the Assassins. The idea is that the alternative would have chi or chi adjacent skills and powers, so the Assassin template seems a poor fit.

sir_pudding 08-05-2022 09:34 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Infornific (Post 2446331)
The Shadow Elves are kind an alternative to the Drow from the Known World/Mystara. That is, an underground offshoot of Elves with distinct special abilities. It's an interesting take.

You'd have to ask Kromm then. These were the ones from DF3.

KarlKost 08-08-2022 12:37 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Infornific (Post 2446195)
If you're looking for inspiration for ninja aside from East Asia, the Order of Assassins might be a good starting point. It's a religious order so you've got a justification for mystic skills and abilities in addition to conventional assassin skills.

The european Templars or Teutonic Knights could fill that role, as would the Ottoman Janissaries. Sure, those are more commonly paired with Paladins/Mystic Knights, but those were also infiltrators and assassins just as much as the Ninjas were (which is why I prefer "Assassin" as a "class"/template rather than "Ninja").



Quote:

Originally Posted by Infornific (Post 2446331)

Did not know there was an assassin template. The poster was asking for non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists and Ninjas, so that's why I suggested the Order of the Assassins. The idea is that the alternative would have chi or chi adjacent skills and powers, so the Assassin template seems a poor fit.

"Chi" is just a name. It can just as easily be replaced by "Pneuma" (greek) or "Spiritus" (latin). Ninjas are infiltrators and assassins; that's no different from roman legionnaires speciallized in those functions.

The Ninja template is an assassin template; if you wish to add exotic or supernatural traits to it, that's what it is. "Shadow powers" for instance may be a thing for some secret assassin organizations - not much from different from a Mages Guild teaching spells, or the Alchemists Guild teaching potions.

For example, the Elder Scrolls games (Oblivion, Skyrim etc) have the Assassins guild, and those arent nipponic "ninjas", and they still teach many regular and supernatural abilities.

sir_pudding 08-08-2022 06:48 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlKost (Post 2446605)
The Ninja template is an assassin template; if you wish to add exotic or supernatural traits to it, that's what it is.

I think you are missing or understating the role of tools for the template. The differences between the assassin and the ninja are as much about Ninja Tools as they are about the other powers.

Varyon 08-08-2022 08:34 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlKost (Post 2446605)
The Ninja template is an assassin template; if you wish to add exotic or supernatural traits to it, that's what it is. "Shadow powers" for instance may be a thing for some secret assassin organizations - not much from different from a Mages Guild teaching spells, or the Alchemists Guild teaching potions.

While the DF Ninja is a type of assassin, the DF Assassin is a completely different template. The Ninja is all about various esoteric abilities - they've got a fairly wide Weapon Master alongside Killing Strike (which boosts ST for one attack per weapon per encounter) to encourage using a variety of weapons (while an Assassin could easily favor a single make of weapon), Ninja Tools (a modified variant of Gizmo, without the cap of 3 instances) to encourage using various specialty items like climbing claws, grapnels, snorkels, etc, and access to (and required investment in) various esoteric skills, not to mention their ability to purchase things like One With Shadows (a Limited version of Obscure) or Shadow Walker (basically just Shadow Form).

Now, personally, I'm not a huge fan of some of the idiosyncrasies of the DF Ninja - in no small part because I'm not a fan of the esoteric skills (they just seem... off), although I also dislike the silliness of "Fast-Draw ninja-to, strike, drop it; Fast-Draw nunchaku, strike, drop it; Fast-Draw jutte, strike, drop it; etc." My own inclination would be to allow Weapon Master to be narrowed down even to a single weapon (while most ninja are trained with all manner of ninja weapons, having one who favors a particular type - like the Oniwabanshu from Rurouni Kenshin, each of whom often had a favored weapon (Aoshi's kodachi, Misao's kunai, Okina's tonfa, etc) - shouldn't be uncommon, with such characters likely having skill (and familiarity) with the other weapons, but on Weapon Master for their favorite, probably modify Killing Strike to simply be a once-per-encounter ability (representing a strike meant to be used for an assassination, without the "But I can just swap weapons!" workaround), and make the esoteric skills optional (and/or replace then with Advantages that do the same thing). But that's my own idea of what a Ninja template should look like; the DF authors had their own idea and went with it.

sir_pudding 08-08-2022 11:29 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
In my game the Ninja typically just hit each thing once to get killing strike with his ninjato and poison it, vanishing between targets of course. Although I also had about double the ninja powers and power-ups available.

KarlKost 08-09-2022 01:47 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 2446662)
I think you are missing or understating the role of tools for the template. The differences between the assassin and the ninja are as much about Ninja Tools as they are about the other powers.

Ninja tools are assassin tools, just different due to the cultural origins. Poisoned darts, poisoned knives, garrotes (I believe that's the name in english, Im not sure, sorry if it isnt). A Shuriken serves basically the same purpose of a throw knife or dart

Take the game Assassins' Creed, the protagonist is a western assassin; he is the quintessential ninja through and through. There's no difference between that and a ninja, except being in either Europe or Japan.

KarlKost 08-09-2022 02:05 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Varyon (Post 2446670)
While the DF Ninja is a type of assassin, the DF Assassin is a completely different template. The Ninja is all about various esoteric abilities - they've got a fairly wide Weapon Master alongside Killing Strike (which boosts ST for one attack per weapon per encounter) to encourage using a variety of weapons (while an Assassin could easily favor a single make of weapon), Ninja Tools (a modified variant of Gizmo, without the cap of 3 instances) to encourage using various specialty items like climbing claws, grapnels, snorkels, etc, and access to (and required investment in) various esoteric skills, not to mention their ability to purchase things like One With Shadows (a Limited version of Obscure) or Shadow Walker (basically just Shadow Form).

Now, personally, I'm not a huge fan of some of the idiosyncrasies of the DF Ninja - in no small part because I'm not a fan of the esoteric skills (they just seem... off), although I also dislike the silliness of "Fast-Draw ninja-to, strike, drop it; Fast-Draw nunchaku, strike, drop it; Fast-Draw jutte, strike, drop it; etc." My own inclination would be to allow Weapon Master to be narrowed down even to a single weapon (while most ninja are trained with all manner of ninja weapons, having one who favors a particular type - like the Oniwabanshu from Rurouni Kenshin, each of whom often had a favored weapon (Aoshi's kodachi, Misao's kunai, Okina's tonfa, etc) - shouldn't be uncommon, with such characters likely having skill (and familiarity) with the other weapons, but on Weapon Master for their favorite, probably modify Killing Strike to simply be a once-per-encounter ability (representing a strike meant to be used for an assassination, without the "But I can just swap weapons!" workaround), and make the esoteric skills optional (and/or replace then with Advantages that do the same thing). But that's my own idea of what a Ninja template should look like; the DF authors had their own idea and went with it.

Those advantages are cinematographic; in a realistic game, no ninja would have those; in a cinematographic one, assassins could use them too.

Likewise the same applies to any other kind of exotic or supernatural traits. Unless the setting is such that Japan is a magic land, if those are learned traits, any assassin from Jamaica or Finland or Botswana could learn those. Sure, there may be differences from place to place, but those arent traits intrinsic to a very specific kind of assassins from Japan.

In fact, the entire mystic about ninjas and samurais is a lot more legend than truth. In fact, medieval european warriors were probably far superior in almost all aspects.

I particularly see no reason why not allowing an european, or african or middle eastern, "ninja-like" assassin kind of the one from Assassins' Creed game for example. In my opnion, an ottoman Janissary or euroepean Templar would be just as effective, if not more.

dcarson 08-09-2022 08:50 PM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Now I'm visualizing the five minute pause after an encounter while the ninja finds, gathers up, and stows away all the weapons he used and dropped. Or the scene in several Ranma fanfics where someone disrupts the Hidden Weapons experts chi and he finds himself buried under all the weapons he was carrying.

sir_pudding 08-10-2022 03:52 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlKost (Post 2446739)
Ninja tools are assassin tools, just different due to the cultural origins.

The assassin doesn't have Ninja Tools or Killing Strike on the template.

sir_pudding 08-10-2022 04:11 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlKost (Post 2446741)
Those advantages are cinematographic; in a realistic game

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is not realistic.
Quote:

in a cinematographic one, assassins could use them too.)
The assumption is that you csn normally only get abilities of your profession. Ninja abilities specifically have prerequisites that the assassin doesn't have.

Quote:

Likewise the same applies to any other kind of exotic or supernatural traits.
If you aren't enforcing the occupations, sure.
Quote:

Unless the setting is such that Japan is a magic land, if those are learned traits, any assassin from Jamaica or Finland or Botswana could learn those. Sure, there may be differences from place to place, but those arent traits intrinsic to a very specific kind of assassins from Japan.
None of these places exist in any of my DF games. My ninja were from the mysterious ziggurats of shadow-shrouded Zhartoum, City of a Thousand Eyes.

Quote:

In fact, the entire mystic about ninjas and samurais is a lot more legend than truth. In fact, medieval european warriors were probably far superior in almost all aspects.
The DF ninja is based mostly on the 80s ninja craze, so it's not even legend. That said its unlikely that any warrior of any place or period is meaningfully far superior to any other, except in terms of technology, because people are trained and equipped for the battfield they must fight on, not some hypothetical "best in history" competition.

Quote:

I particularly see no reason why not allowing an european, or african or middle eastern, "ninja-like" assassin kind of the one from Assassins' Creed game for example. In my opnion, an ottoman Janissary or euroepean Templar would be just as effective, if not more.
If you do it with assassin template, it won't be less effective, these are both 250 point templates designed around stealth and single target attacks and the assassin is more focused (the ninja is stealth kills with gadgets and powers). If you do it with the ninja template, it will look and act like an 80s pop culture ninja.

KarlKost 08-10-2022 11:54 AM

Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)
 
I think we are having a bit of miscommunication. I know that assassins and ninjas are different DF templates. That's not what Im refering to.

What I mean is that you dont need to take inspiration on assassins using kimonos and wodden sandals to make a similar character. For a DF game, any assassin that uses powers and gadgets is a "ninja"; you may even call them "Shadow Dancers" or whatever other name you'd like.

That was the OP's question, if it's possible to have a "ninja" that doesnt necessarily have to take influence from Eastern aesthetics. To which my answer is yes, absolutely.

I understand what you're saying, the DF "ninja" has powers and gadgets that the assassin dont have. Im not denying this, and that wasnt what I was refering. What I meant is that a ninja - in specific, a DF ninja - is simply an assassin that trade some skills for specific powers and gadgets. The several protagonists from the Assassins' Creed series could very well play the role of DF "ninjas" for example, without being eastern driven.

I dont know if I made myself clearer this time... Do you know understand what I mean? Or is it still dubious? Sometimes things seem to be clear in my mind, but I realize that this is only true for my own mind, because people always get confused, so perhaps Im not being able to explain it as clearly as I believe that it makes sense in my head, so that's why Im asking.


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