Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

There is only one page's worth of information in the Basic Set (page B393) covering Surprise Attacks, and I've read through that page many times at this point. There are still a few details that perplex me.

First of all, Total Surprise is very difficult to achieve. To catch adventurers and adventurer-type NPCs completely by surprise, you either have to do something completely zany, unexpected and off-the-wall (werewolves bursting into the public library), or get them when they're sleeping or otherwise incredibly vulnerable. And even then, characters with Combat Reflexes (that's most hero-type characters) are never really caught completely off guard. If the attackers do manage to achieve Total Surprise, then there's no need to roll initiative; the attackers get one or more rounds free to do as they wish.

Partial Surprise is odd. If the PCs (or adventurer-grade NPCs) are wary and alert, there is simply no way to catch them totally by surprise. So let's say a bunch of enemy NPCs have set up an ambush for the PCs. The PCs don't notice them at all, but because they're wary, when the NPCs pop out of their hiding places to start shooting, both sides roll initiative.

That means that if attackers have an ambush set up and a wary group walks into the trap, the attackers could somehow lose initiative and the ones the ambushers intended to attack would end up getting one or more free turns instead!

That makes no sense to me. I can deal with the defenders getting to act normally, but getting to act BEFORE the ambushers? Wow.

Is there something I'm missing?

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

There's a little part that you may be overlooking. Under Partial Suprise, is says "The GM should require each side to roll for initiative." That leads me to feel there is some working room in the suprise rules to cover your ambush situation, though the rules are a bit "fuzzy" on it. I'd say that in your ambush situation, unless the players had some sort of warning about the impending attack, they wouldn't roll for initiative. Combat would occur as normal, except that those without Combat Reflexes would suffer from the rules for Total Suprise. This is only my take on it, or how I'd work with a "fuzzy" rules situation. Though I can understand situations where the ambushers might be on the losing side if an Initiative roll, especially if they "jump out of hiding" expecting unaware victims and wind up getting battle ready foes. The ambushers just might be "suprised" themselves. Maybe this is something that can be debated and possibly even added into the FAQ as suprises and ambushes are a commonplace event in role-playing games.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

IMO the most important part:
The GM can apply other modifiers as he sees fit!!!
Partial surprise covers everything from two unaware parties running into each other to an ambush. In case of an ambush you would just give the ambushing group a bonus of +5??? to initiative for the first round so they go first, but unlike in a total surprise situation the ambushed party can react immediatly...

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

I haven't overlooked it, it's the main focus of my befuddlement. According to the description of Total Surprise, wary PCs (or NPCs) simply cannot be taken completely by surprise. I suppose a perfectly planned ambush wherein the attackers are not noticed by any of the targets, and wherein the ambushers start firing immediately from ready vantage points, should be considered Total Surprise.

Yeah, what you just described is Total Surprise, to the letter -- but the way I read Total Surprise, wary, seasoned characters cannot be taken totally by surprise, period.

I hope so. Perhaps a little rain dance and an offering of a fattened calf might attract the attention of Dr. Kromm...

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Well, in Partial Surprise, the losers of the initiative roll still are unable to act for at least one round, and they have to make their IQ roll to act.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Initiative losers dont act first. They are mentally stunned and they have according penalties. When the winners of initiative are done with their actions, the losers take their turn, if they pass their IQ rolls to recover from mental stun. Those without Combat Reflexes are frozen if it was a Total Surprise situation.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

This should be incredibly rare, but I find this possibility to be dramatically appropriate -- certainly there are times in the movies where the heroes gain a stunning reversal in an ambush situation because one of the attackers reveals himself too early by trodding on a twig or what-have-you.

Also, as I read the rules on Surprise, the Surprise situation seems to me (though I don't think it's quite explicit) to be describing the situation where the attackers and defenders can mutually perceive one another (i.e. backing up through the woods and bumping in to one another; entering the saloon and seeing the James gang; et cetera). This situation isn't entirely like the first salvo from an ambush -- either the attacker or defender may see his opponent but may be unable to act due to surprise.

The first shot from an unseen opponent (like sniper fire) doesn't, in my view, call for a surprise check until *after* the attack is made (and of course, no active defense would apply).

Take a look at Attack from Above, p. 402. In that situation, if the attacker fails to perceive the attacker, no defense is allowed and a surprise check may be called for in addition to the undefended attack from above.

An ambush situation calls for a contest of stealth or camouflage versus perception for the initial attack, not a surprise check -- though a surprise check is certainly apropos after that attack has occurred.

That's what the intent seems to me to be. I don't think it's errata, but if I'm on the right track, it could stand to be in the FAQ.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Ohh my bad...
But the main message is that the GM adds modifiers to the initiative rolls...
Both parties are surprised: no additional modifiers
A ambushes B: B (or the leader thereoff) gets -X to their rolls (X might be depending on how well A planned the success (marigin of success in their strategy? roll)

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Its all about vision, hearing and sometimes smell rolls. Who detects who first determines who goes first. I had a table for all those things in 3rd edition, an amalgam of all detection rules for GURPS (ecpecially those from Vehicles concerning +10 to all sense rolls, woods penalty, fog penalty, and so on. So, ambushers could find themselves in a nasty ambush themselves if they were spotted in time to react (a nasty "surprise", wouldnt you say:) )

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

I totally agree with you, so I tweaked a little bit the partial suprise thing starting from the sentence "when the defenders were expecting trouble":
I treat an ambush or similar surprise situation as a 'partial suprise' only if my players told me in advance that they are expecting that specific kind of danger, or if the surprise situation is predictable given the place they are travelling along, the task they are carrying out etc... otherwise I treat it as 'total surprise'.

Example: a group of adventurers are following the tracks of a renegade mercenary troop they were ordered to capture; the leader of the PCs knows that the mercs are aware of being pursued, and that the wood they are walking in is plagued by flocks of blood-sucking bats. If the goup is ambushed by the mercs or attacked by bats this is partial surprise, but if a tiger suddenly leaps in front of them by the bushes, or they are attacked by elf archers, well, this is total surprise to me!

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Hi there,

the way I see it, I don't think it would make sense to make sides roll in the case of an ambush, I would make the ambushers win but the ambushees be affected by partial surprise (mental stun but IQ rolls with a +1 per additionnal attempt). I think you make both sides roll in case both groups are surprised to see which side recovers first from surprise. Example : You open a door of a room where you thought it was empty only to come face to face with a group of goblins which weren't expecting you and didn't hear you. Like you too, I don't think it would make sense for the defenders to act before the ambushers.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Thats still a partial surprise. The difference between total and partial surprise is that you are totaly surprised when strolling along a road (perhaps even singing :) ) and a ninja/tiger/random bad intentioned thing jumps from the bushes and when you are cautiously walking along the road and waiting for something to happen (hence sense rolls). If you know there are bad things in the woods, you are hardly surprised when bad things jump at you.:)

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

In an Amush type situation, surprise doesn't necessarily even come up. The ambushers simply use Wait maneuvers and/or Opportunity Fire. As soon as the PCs enter withing range, the guns start shooting (or the Orcs use Move and Attack maneuvers). Either way, the ambushed party doesn't get to act because this turn, they spent their actions already - they used a Move maneuver to walk into the trap. So the attacker will get a full turn for free (unless thye're spotted, of course) no matter how high the victims reflexes are.
(as an aside, if the ambushed party isn't even aware of the attack - sudden fire from a hidden machine gun encampment - then they won't get Active Defenses, either).

In the second turn, the ambushed party may very well be surprised (or not, if liberally equipped with Combat Reflexes or ETS), partially or otherwise.

In other words:
Turn 1
PCs: walk into a chasm, failing all Per rolls.
Orcs: start firing crossbows from their hiding places. PCs don't get Active Defense or any other actionbs - they were busy "walking into the chasm"

Turn 2
PCs: check for surprise, if unsurprised, dive for cover
Orcs: continue shooting, this time however talking into account Active Defenses for unsurprised targets

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Everyone has good points, and of course none of them provide concrete answers (it's a matter of taste, seems like). I like Wedhro's method the best, because it is very clean and well-defined, but that doesn't mean anyone else's opinions are anny less valid.

I think that the status of any two parties can be described as on of the five choices below, EXCEPT for planned ambushes! They are a special case.

READINESS OF GROUP

• Members are all quite wary and strongly suspect that an attack is imminent.
• Members are alert to their surroundings and prepared to react to events.
• Members are going about their business, not especially relaxed or wary.
• Members are relaxed and aren't even thinking about possible dangers.
• Members are asleep or otherwise totally unprepared for an attack.

Using that list, all the rules for Surprise make sense if you compare the readiness of the two groups. The fuzziness comes when you consider actual ambushes. Ambushes are a special case because it's the one time the would-be attackers have dug in and actually planned a sneak attack on an enemy. I think they should be handled as total surprise if none of the defenders notice the amush before the ambush is sprung, no matter HOW alert the defenders are. If the defenders DO catch the ambush before it is sprung, then you would proceed normally (both groups would be classified then as "Members are all quite wary and strongly suspect that an attack is imminent.")

I just answered my own question, I think.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

A crucial component that people are missing is this: In an ambush, if the ambushers make their Camouflage and/or Stealth rolls, and/or the victims make their rolls against Observation or Per by less or not at all, then the victims don't spot the ambushers. That's the entire point of Camouflage and Stealth; see the skill text. A person who hasn't detected a potential attacker doesn't get a defense roll when that foe attacks; see the bottom of the first column on p. B374. So if it's an ambush (i.e., attackers remain unspotted) and not a risky assault by the intended victims (i.e., would-be ambushers have good positions but are sighted and engaged), the ambushers ALWAYS get one free attack against no defenses.

AFTER that attack, you resolve surprise.

If the victims of the ambush were wary, use Partial Surprise. The opposing leader -- if he wasn't killed in the opening salvo -- might rally his men and take the initiative. This is why there's a modifier for one side being leaderless; always shoot at the guy with the radio. However, this is a situation where one side is more alert than the other, as flagged in the rules, and the ambushers should get a large bonus. Between that and taking out leaders, the modifiers should favor the ambushers. It isn't automatic, though.

Even if the ambushers somehow lose the initiative, all this really does is give the victims a "lull" in which to move, find cover, and/or look for their attackers. This is assuming that the ambush was a good one -- i.e., the leader of the ambushers made his Tactics roll -- and the ambushers are hidden some distance away from a location that offers their prey little cover. Victims who choose to counterattack might get a second or two in which to do so, but they aren't likely to hit anything if they're shooting at dug-in, concealed ambushers.

If the victims were caught with their pants down, use Total Surprise. In that case, the ambushers will continue to get "free attacks" until their victims do something useful.

In either case, once all surprise wears off, the ambushers will still have the advantages of bracing, concealment, cover, high ground, and/or properly deployed heavy weapons -- again, assuming their leader made his Tactics roll. Even if the victims seize the initiative, they won't be scoring hits with the same reliability as their attackers.

An example might look like this:

1st Platoon digs in around a barren stretch of road that LT Smith knows the enemy must traverse (successful roll against Smith's Tactics-12). SFC Jones has them place Claymores and set up MGs on high ground overlooking the road, and hide their positions with scrub and netting (successful roll against Jones' Tactics-14). The GM gives them +1 for equipment (nets and facepaint) and +2 more for having lots of time. The average trooper has Camouflage-12 (it's an Easy skill), so they roll against 15.

The enemy comes zooming up the road. Their scout is good -- Observation-15 -- and has binoculars (+3), but he's scanning cover that's 15 yards offroad, from a moving Jeep that's doing 30mph. He has a speed/range penalty of -7, making his roll 11. It's a Quick Contest of 11 vs. 15 to spot the enemy, and he loses by 4.

Smith waits until the enemy vehicles are within the kill zone, then gives the order. Claymores detonate. MGs bark. Rifles fire. The platoon's crack shot, PFC Pyle, drills the enemy leader through the helmet. Nobody on the opposing side gets any chance to dive for cover against this initial onslaught.

Now we check for surprise. The GM rules that becaue the enemy had a scout and knew to expect hostiles in the area, this can't be total surprise. Both sides roll 1d for partial surprise. There's almost certainly somebody with Combat Reflexes on both sides: +1. Tactics skill is evenly matched, and both sides have it: +1. The now-leaderless enemy is at -2 for losing their CO. And the GM assesses Smith and friends +4 because the enemy lost the initial Quick Contest of Observation vs. Camouflage by that much, and it's a good measure of relative alertness. So Smith rolls 1d+6 while the enemy rolls 1d. Smith of course wins, and the enemy takes fire for several more seconds before they can react.

Let's say Pyle missed his shot. Then Smith would roll 1d+6 against the enemy's 1d+2.

Smith could roll 1+6 = 7 against the enemy's 5+2 = 7, or 2+6 = 8 against the enemy's 6+2 = 8. In that case, there are no surprise attacks. The enemy still has to find cover that's 15 yards away, take time to spot their attackers, and fire back at a slightly elevated target that has cover, at a -8 or so. Smith and pals have only the -5 for range, and will be shooting aimed (+5 for assault rifles and LMGs) and braced (+1) at visible targets -- and probably rolling at +1 or so.

Smith could roll 1+6 = 7 against the enemy's 6+2 = 8 . . . it's a 2.8% chance, but it could happen. The enemy leader leaps into action and barks the order for a planned response! The enemy drivers veer off left and right at speed, men diving out facing the sides of the road. Some actually leave the kill zone, while others are prone, and one of Smith's squads has to dive out of the path of an unmanned Jeep coming in at 30 mph. Smith has to spend a few seconds giving orders. Jones is yelling at his men to move that MG. The enemy still has to find cover that's 15 yards away, take time to spot their attackers, and fire back at a slightly elevated target that has cover . . . but they get a few seconds to do this without being fired on at +1. They're still at -8 if they choose to shoot, though.

Things could be worse. The GM could give far less than +4 to Smith -- perhaps the enemy had better scouts, or a thermograph, or even a warning from an aircraft. Then the enemy leader is expecting an ambush and ready for it. All Smith controls is where, not what. He could actually find the tables turned when he fires that first shot, because the response could be a barrage of grenade launcher fire, or even artillery support.

Things could be better. Smith, Jones, Pyle, et al. might be crack troopers with Combat Reflexes, high Tactics, better IQ, etc., and/or the enemy could be green recruits or REMFs with useless training, for up to +3 more on Smith's roll. Or this could be 50 klicks behind the lines, in an area the enemy considers secure, and the convoy could be manned by the tired and wounded leaving the combat zone. In that case, the GM might use total surprise.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Expertly explained . . . I believe that resolves all of my issues.

Thank you, Dr. Kromm!

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

FWIW when we were practicing this sort of thing the 'order' to fire would generally be the claymores detonating or the MG opening up (after the sergeant tapped the relevant soldier on the sholder). That way there's no worries about the enemy somehow reacting to the shouted order before your guys can (it shouldn't happen, but you never know). It also gets round concerns about guys who don't hear the order and assume the firing is therefore premature and don't join in.

And thus run into the cut-off group's fire zone and get gunned down by them. :)

And then they find the cover has punji stakes and trip-wired mines in it. :)

Or worse, the enemy sees the ambush from outside it, piles out of their vehicles, and assaults from the flank, rolling up the ambushers. This is the worst nightmare of people setting prepared ambushes, BTW.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

I would like that same example with a difference that guy on a jeep spots the ambush.

Thank you in advance, Dr. Kromm

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

For one thing, it seems a bit rude to assume that Dr. Kromm will spit out page-long explanations on demand; he does so at his leisure, and he's generally considered to be a busy man. For another, what you're asking for was already covered in the example he provided:

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

I think Rupert put it very succinctly:

Then you just run my long scenario in reverse, with the alerted would-be victims as the ambushers and the former ambushers as the victims, changing the physical details to suit the engagement.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

I bow to experience, although I'll note that there are plenty of uptight armies out there that rely on getting an actual verbal order for everything. Usually, they're not the very well-trained sort . . .

Yeah, I left out that little detail. At GURPS' level of resolution, the killing group(s) and cut-off group are just one big force, and their collective zones of responsibility are a single killing zone. Setting this up right is a function of Tactics, and why Tactics figures into every other aspect of my explanation. Gaming it out at a higher resolution would make my example a lot longer. :)

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

The big thing is to make darned sure that everyone knows that only the guy in charge or whoever he appoints to do the job (often the machinegunner) gets to initiate. If you trust your men to be intelligent you can allow them the option of opening up early if they are spotted, but you have to be sure that your guys can, in fact be trusted to not get the jitters and open fire because "he looked like he'd seen me".

Fair enough. I was just pointing out that running/driving up or down the road was likely to be a bad idea. Of course, if the ambushers have had plenty of time to set up running away from them puts you into booby traps, as does running towards them, and staying where you are is a clear non-starter...

Our counter-ambush drill was to turn and charge the source of fire, hoping you could bull your way through any mines and traps and get into and behind the ambushers. It's not a good option, but it beats the rest.

In a game I'd be asking for IQ or Will checks for people without Combat Reflexes who get caught in an ambush, and if they fail they end up behind the closest object that vaguely counts as cover, prone (I've seen this happen in exercises - heck, I did it once). A good leader might be able to avoid this if he can act and shout some orders before his men have gone to ground. after that he's got the much harder job of getting them up and moving again, and if the killing zone was properly selected he'll never get the chance - the 'cover' won't actually provide cover, and he'll be dead very shortly once he starts trying to give orders.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Can I just check - in the example, effective skill 15 vs 11, did Kromm mean "they roll and typically 15 wins by 4", or did he mean "there's no roll, compare values, the 15-guy is 4 higher"? The former, right?

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Yeah, it's suppose to be a Quick Contest, which means that both sides roll, find margins of success/failure, compare margins, and work out a margin of victory from that. It's easier not to spell all that out! In a Contest of 15 vs. 11, you could reasonably expect to win by 4, which is why I chose that number. You could, of course, also lose by 11 or win by 19.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

The example given was a military example...what about something less...bunkered? Does this example seem right? (Pulls out dice)

Let's say the heroes are strolling through the city and decide to cut through an alley at night, while chatting about their plans to take down Diabolo. Unbeknownst to them, the Black-Eye Gang (BEG) has been observing them and is hiding in the alley ready to ambush them.

So we roll Stealth of the BEG vs. the Perception of the PCs. The GM decides that the BEG didn't have lots of time to prepare the ambush, but they did have enough for a +1 to Stealth. Further, the GM rules the alley is dark enough for a -2 Per penalty for our Heroes.

The BEG leader hides his people, and makes his stealth roll by 4. The 4 PCs all roll their Per.

Glasses McGee makes his by 7.
Janet makes hers by 4.
Biff fails his by 1.

So, the BEG springs out of their hiding spots to attack as the Heroes pass by. They'll be using All-Out Attacks so they can get the movement to reach the heroes. They all have ST/HT/DX of 12. They also all have IQ of 10. All of their weapon skills are also at 12.

1. The BEG gets to attack first for the ambush, and only Glasses McGee gets to defend since he is the only one beat the Gang's Stealth roll. But does Glasses McGee get to act, since he did make his perception check?* At the moment I'll say he can defend but not act.

Spider and Knife attack Biff.
Spider takes a double attack swinging that bat and rolls 13 and 8 against a Broadsword skill of 12. He's going for torso blows. Biff can't defend against the blow and is wearing no armor. Spider rolls (1d+3) 5 pts of damage.

Biff is a tank and has 15 HT. He loses 5, bringing him down to 10.

Knife thrusts his small knife at Biffs vitals...going for a Determined attack. He rolls an 11 and makes his roll. Knife does 1d-2 (rolled a 1) x3 or, 3 pts of damage. Bringing Biff down to 7HP. Biff makes his Knockdown roll easily, however.

Knuckles makes a double attack against Janet with brass knuckles. Rolling 10 and 16, one blow hits for 1 pt of damage. Janet goes from 12HP to 11.

Manny makes a Strong attack against Glasses McGee...hm...I wanted him to use a length of chain...I suppose we could call that a Kusari, with reach 1. Manny rolls a 12 which is good enough to hit. Glasses makes a retreating dodge and rolls and 8, easily stepping out of the way of the menacing chain. As he does so he calls "Look out!"

Now we roll for initiative.

The Black-Eye Gang, Has a Leader with Combat Reflexes, and with Tactics. So they'll roll 1d6+4. Our heroes...like almost every PC group I've run into is a bunch of rugged individualists and has no leader. So they the GM rolls for them 1d-3 (-2 for no leader, and -2, which is the collective results of their perception rolls, but +1 since there are people with Combat Reflexes in the party)...well I'll be nice and give the group a +1 because Glasses McGee called out a warning...so 1d-2. The Gang rolls 9 and the Heroes roll 2. So they are stunned...let's say that Glasses McGee isn't though, since he made his Perception roll. Does that seem fair? Also, the players now learn something about having a combat leader, perhaps they will designate one in the future.

Round 1.

Biff- He is mentally stunned and suffering -4 to IQ/DX from Shock. He has Combat Reflexes however and easily recovers from the stun. Janet- Janet also breaks stun.
Spider- All Out Attacks, Determined Biff in the head with the bat. Rolling an 8, it is good enough to hit, and Biff tries a Judo parry. He is at -4 because he is still stunned this turn. Normally his parry is 11 (Judo 16) but now he rolls against a 7 and cannot retreat. He fails. Spider rolls 7 points of damage right to Biff's noggin -2 DR for 5. But this is x4 wounding modifier for 20pts of damage. That brings him to -13HP. His knockdown roll is at -10 and he not only fails it, but he's knocked out.

Knife- Steps to Janet and brandishes his knife. He decides with the big comat danger out of the way, a little intimidation is in order, "Look here, Pretty, Diabolo wants youse guys to stay out of his business, or next time we kill you and any body you ever loved! Take this as a warning...you wouldn't want me to ruin your face!" He makes his intimidation roll by 1.
Knuckles - Does nothing.
Manny - Does nothing.
Glasses - Decides to Fast Talk! "Okay, we give! The case isn't worth it. Tell Diabolo we we give up on the case. We won't get anywhere near it. Let us go so we can get Biff to the hospital...we'll tell them he fell down stairs." Predictably Glasses makes his fast-talk by a lot, even with the -1 for the Intimidation attempt. Fast-Talk is an Influence roll, so the Thugs buy it and leave.

Glasses tells Janet to tail the gang while he tends to Biff.

Is that about right?

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Hi,

I don't think that a melee attack does not give a chance to react, except if you are attacked from behind or from a very close reach (an step and attack at most).

If someone runs to you with a bat / sword / spear etc. I think you can defend yourself, even with a penalty, say, of -4 (like you are stunned).

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Defense rules say you can defend against any attack except the ones you don't know about...it seems to me that the characters didn't know about those opening attacks since they failed their Perception rolls vs. the ambushers stealth.

And in Kromm's post upthreat he says:

And the attack from above rules also say the person who didn't make that Vision roll gets no defense from the person attacking...distance seems no problem...as long as they can get there in a round.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Note that I am talking about melee.

The attackers will only remain unspotted if they are under cover etc. I think an orc with an axe running towards you is not performing his stealth conveniently. Except - maybe - if the time the action takes is very short.

Attacks from above are another category of attacks just because one does not look - on normal conditions - upwards. If the attacker is in the same ground, you can react - even poorly - to it.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Note that it doesn't make any difference. ;p

If you sense the attack, you can react to it. Seeing an orc charge out of hiding and swing a weapon at you probably counts as "sensing the attack". Not noticing the rogue sneaking up behind you and whacking you over the head doesn't.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Indeed! And if the orc rushes at you in a flash of a second and you don't sense him coming...you don't sense him...and you can not defend agaisnt an attack you don't sense.

Thugs and generic other ne'erdowells often melee ambush people...lunging from the shadows!

Now I would rule that you would have to be able to make it to your target the same round you attack. So--in hiding, then an all out attack to reach and hit them before they know what hit them. If you can't reach them in the same round you hit them...if you are moving towards them on their next turn and not being stealthy...that's different.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

You can rule whatever you want, but the wording is fairly unambiguous. If an orc charges me from the front, I can see him, meaning that I am in fact "aware" of the attack.. and if you were my GM, telling me that the orc gets a free shot because he's able to attack me before my nervous system can register the event and jump out of the way, I'd be mighty annoyed.

The reason thugs ambush people isn't just to surprise them; it's to lure them into danger in the first place. If you looked down a dark alley, and saw a stranger waiting there with a weapon in hand, would you stroll in?

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

You can make a free perception roll to see it. This perception roll is usually at a large advantage once the target is actually out in the open, close to you, and moving.

However, since you cannot recover from mental stun until your action comes up, you will be mentally stunned and defend at -4, which for non-cinematic characters generally means defense isn't very relevant.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

The wording is pretty unambiguous. You cannot defend against attacks you don't know about. And you wouldn't know about the Orc coming at you if you failed the contest your Vision vs. his Stealth. B402, under Attacks from above give a Vision vs Stealth to spot the attacker, -2 because the attacker is above you. Attackers not above don't get the -2. But no where do any of the rule imply that is not possible to ambush a foe in melee unless that foe is above you.

Also, under Instant Death on pg. B423 it discusses unaware victims. It says since your attack is a surprise attack, they won't be hitting you back and they get no defense.

Melee ambush surprise attacks seem completely in the rules to me.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Yeah, the orc charging you from the front in the open... Trying to be sneaky? Okay, it's a roll of your perception against his stealth-10 (-5 for moving fast, -5 for moving without any adequate cover).

Doesn't mean it can't happen, though. I've SEEN people get "surprised" by a rush from the front. It's kinda funny.

Anyway, assuming you see him coming, but he wins initiative, so he gets to you while you're still stunned... An attack from the front isn't the greatest idea. Sure, you're at -4 for being stunned, but you can always retreat to negate part of that (Making the penalty for a dodge only -1).

And for the record, I have been the victim of "surprise" in both ranged and melee combat, in real life. Typical melee surprise is often nothing more than someone who was seemingly peaceful one moment abruptly attacking, and you just simply not reacting appropriately (For me, it's generally some form of making sure this is REALLY happening before reacting... A reaction I'm trying to work out of myself). I've also seen a "melee suprise" reversed, where I'd definately consider the attacker "stunned" by the turn of events, though very rarely (Appropriately enough, by someone I would definately give Combat Reflexes to).

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

B420 "You may perform any active defense while stunned, but your defense rolls are at -4 and you cannot retreat." Looks like you're dead meat unless you have good DR.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Sure.

I wouldn't fail the contest as soon as he stepped in front of my eyes. IMO, the people here suggesting a free perception roll are being terribly generous.. to the orc.

They are, but you appear to be confusing surprise (a state of mental confusion during which a character can't act effectively) with blissful ignorance.. or stealth with invisibility.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

[QUOTE=Xplo]I wouldn't fail the contest as soon as he stepped in front of my eyes. IMO, the people here suggesting a free perception roll are being terribly generous.. to the orc.

The attacking from above rule allows a person to come from a hidden place, drop down in front of (or behind or wherever...or optionally on top of) a person and get a surprise attack...if the person doesn't make their Per roll vs. the attacker's stealth. Additionally, because the person is coming from a hidden place that is above, the spotter is at -2.

To me, this implies that the rules recognize a situation were a person is hiding and then pops out to attack someone. In that situation the victim gets a Per roll vs. the attacker's Stealth. If they fail roll, that attack is a surprise attack with no defenses allowed. If that Orc is hiding in the shadows/darkened doorway/etc, rather than above, then the spotter wouldn't get the -2...but the rules seem to me to allow a person to hide and then pop out and get a suprise ambush attack if the don't beat the attackers Stealth roll.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Actually the situation I described was not an orc charging you from the front out in the open. But an Orc who successfully hid from you in the shadows, jumping out and whacking you as walk down the darkened alley.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Quoted for truth. It's entirely possible to see someone, but not be responding appropriately against aggressive moves. This might be someone innocuous seeming who suddenly lunges, or someone unseen who pops out of hiding with a weapon in motion.

One key here is that rolls for surprise and initiative ought to take place as soon as the combatants can be aware of their mutual hostile intent. So if an orc pops out of hiding and charges, roll for surprise then. So the first turn of the PC's surprise and mental stun might happen as the orc is making Move manuvers. If the initial distance is great enough (i.e. the combatants are several Moves apart) it's possible for the surprised side to overcome their mental stun before the surprising party manages to effectively close. This is bad tactics, perhaps, but it may happen.