Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

I bow to experience, although I'll note that there are plenty of uptight armies out there that rely on getting an actual verbal order for everything. Usually, they're not the very well-trained sort . . .

Yeah, I left out that little detail. At GURPS' level of resolution, the killing group(s) and cut-off group are just one big force, and their collective zones of responsibility are a single killing zone. Setting this up right is a function of Tactics, and why Tactics figures into every other aspect of my explanation. Gaming it out at a higher resolution would make my example a lot longer. :)

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

The big thing is to make darned sure that everyone knows that only the guy in charge or whoever he appoints to do the job (often the machinegunner) gets to initiate. If you trust your men to be intelligent you can allow them the option of opening up early if they are spotted, but you have to be sure that your guys can, in fact be trusted to not get the jitters and open fire because "he looked like he'd seen me".

Fair enough. I was just pointing out that running/driving up or down the road was likely to be a bad idea. Of course, if the ambushers have had plenty of time to set up running away from them puts you into booby traps, as does running towards them, and staying where you are is a clear non-starter...

Our counter-ambush drill was to turn and charge the source of fire, hoping you could bull your way through any mines and traps and get into and behind the ambushers. It's not a good option, but it beats the rest.

In a game I'd be asking for IQ or Will checks for people without Combat Reflexes who get caught in an ambush, and if they fail they end up behind the closest object that vaguely counts as cover, prone (I've seen this happen in exercises - heck, I did it once). A good leader might be able to avoid this if he can act and shout some orders before his men have gone to ground. after that he's got the much harder job of getting them up and moving again, and if the killing zone was properly selected he'll never get the chance - the 'cover' won't actually provide cover, and he'll be dead very shortly once he starts trying to give orders.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Can I just check - in the example, effective skill 15 vs 11, did Kromm mean "they roll and typically 15 wins by 4", or did he mean "there's no roll, compare values, the 15-guy is 4 higher"? The former, right?

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Yeah, it's suppose to be a Quick Contest, which means that both sides roll, find margins of success/failure, compare margins, and work out a margin of victory from that. It's easier not to spell all that out! In a Contest of 15 vs. 11, you could reasonably expect to win by 4, which is why I chose that number. You could, of course, also lose by 11 or win by 19.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

The example given was a military example...what about something less...bunkered? Does this example seem right? (Pulls out dice)

Let's say the heroes are strolling through the city and decide to cut through an alley at night, while chatting about their plans to take down Diabolo. Unbeknownst to them, the Black-Eye Gang (BEG) has been observing them and is hiding in the alley ready to ambush them.

So we roll Stealth of the BEG vs. the Perception of the PCs. The GM decides that the BEG didn't have lots of time to prepare the ambush, but they did have enough for a +1 to Stealth. Further, the GM rules the alley is dark enough for a -2 Per penalty for our Heroes.

The BEG leader hides his people, and makes his stealth roll by 4. The 4 PCs all roll their Per.

Glasses McGee makes his by 7.
Janet makes hers by 4.
Biff fails his by 1.

So, the BEG springs out of their hiding spots to attack as the Heroes pass by. They'll be using All-Out Attacks so they can get the movement to reach the heroes. They all have ST/HT/DX of 12. They also all have IQ of 10. All of their weapon skills are also at 12.

1. The BEG gets to attack first for the ambush, and only Glasses McGee gets to defend since he is the only one beat the Gang's Stealth roll. But does Glasses McGee get to act, since he did make his perception check?* At the moment I'll say he can defend but not act.

Spider and Knife attack Biff.
Spider takes a double attack swinging that bat and rolls 13 and 8 against a Broadsword skill of 12. He's going for torso blows. Biff can't defend against the blow and is wearing no armor. Spider rolls (1d+3) 5 pts of damage.

Biff is a tank and has 15 HT. He loses 5, bringing him down to 10.

Knife thrusts his small knife at Biffs vitals...going for a Determined attack. He rolls an 11 and makes his roll. Knife does 1d-2 (rolled a 1) x3 or, 3 pts of damage. Bringing Biff down to 7HP. Biff makes his Knockdown roll easily, however.

Knuckles makes a double attack against Janet with brass knuckles. Rolling 10 and 16, one blow hits for 1 pt of damage. Janet goes from 12HP to 11.

Manny makes a Strong attack against Glasses McGee...hm...I wanted him to use a length of chain...I suppose we could call that a Kusari, with reach 1. Manny rolls a 12 which is good enough to hit. Glasses makes a retreating dodge and rolls and 8, easily stepping out of the way of the menacing chain. As he does so he calls "Look out!"

Now we roll for initiative.

The Black-Eye Gang, Has a Leader with Combat Reflexes, and with Tactics. So they'll roll 1d6+4. Our heroes...like almost every PC group I've run into is a bunch of rugged individualists and has no leader. So they the GM rolls for them 1d-3 (-2 for no leader, and -2, which is the collective results of their perception rolls, but +1 since there are people with Combat Reflexes in the party)...well I'll be nice and give the group a +1 because Glasses McGee called out a warning...so 1d-2. The Gang rolls 9 and the Heroes roll 2. So they are stunned...let's say that Glasses McGee isn't though, since he made his Perception roll. Does that seem fair? Also, the players now learn something about having a combat leader, perhaps they will designate one in the future.

Round 1.

Biff- He is mentally stunned and suffering -4 to IQ/DX from Shock. He has Combat Reflexes however and easily recovers from the stun. Janet- Janet also breaks stun.
Spider- All Out Attacks, Determined Biff in the head with the bat. Rolling an 8, it is good enough to hit, and Biff tries a Judo parry. He is at -4 because he is still stunned this turn. Normally his parry is 11 (Judo 16) but now he rolls against a 7 and cannot retreat. He fails. Spider rolls 7 points of damage right to Biff's noggin -2 DR for 5. But this is x4 wounding modifier for 20pts of damage. That brings him to -13HP. His knockdown roll is at -10 and he not only fails it, but he's knocked out.

Knife- Steps to Janet and brandishes his knife. He decides with the big comat danger out of the way, a little intimidation is in order, "Look here, Pretty, Diabolo wants youse guys to stay out of his business, or next time we kill you and any body you ever loved! Take this as a warning...you wouldn't want me to ruin your face!" He makes his intimidation roll by 1.
Knuckles - Does nothing.
Manny - Does nothing.
Glasses - Decides to Fast Talk! "Okay, we give! The case isn't worth it. Tell Diabolo we we give up on the case. We won't get anywhere near it. Let us go so we can get Biff to the hospital...we'll tell them he fell down stairs." Predictably Glasses makes his fast-talk by a lot, even with the -1 for the Intimidation attempt. Fast-Talk is an Influence roll, so the Thugs buy it and leave.

Glasses tells Janet to tail the gang while he tends to Biff.

Is that about right?

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Hi,

I don't think that a melee attack does not give a chance to react, except if you are attacked from behind or from a very close reach (an step and attack at most).

If someone runs to you with a bat / sword / spear etc. I think you can defend yourself, even with a penalty, say, of -4 (like you are stunned).

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Defense rules say you can defend against any attack except the ones you don't know about...it seems to me that the characters didn't know about those opening attacks since they failed their Perception rolls vs. the ambushers stealth.

And in Kromm's post upthreat he says:

And the attack from above rules also say the person who didn't make that Vision roll gets no defense from the person attacking...distance seems no problem...as long as they can get there in a round.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Note that I am talking about melee.

The attackers will only remain unspotted if they are under cover etc. I think an orc with an axe running towards you is not performing his stealth conveniently. Except - maybe - if the time the action takes is very short.

Attacks from above are another category of attacks just because one does not look - on normal conditions - upwards. If the attacker is in the same ground, you can react - even poorly - to it.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Note that it doesn't make any difference. ;p

If you sense the attack, you can react to it. Seeing an orc charge out of hiding and swing a weapon at you probably counts as "sensing the attack". Not noticing the rogue sneaking up behind you and whacking you over the head doesn't.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Indeed! And if the orc rushes at you in a flash of a second and you don't sense him coming...you don't sense him...and you can not defend agaisnt an attack you don't sense.

Thugs and generic other ne'erdowells often melee ambush people...lunging from the shadows!

Now I would rule that you would have to be able to make it to your target the same round you attack. So--in hiding, then an all out attack to reach and hit them before they know what hit them. If you can't reach them in the same round you hit them...if you are moving towards them on their next turn and not being stealthy...that's different.