Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Hi there,

the way I see it, I don't think it would make sense to make sides roll in the case of an ambush, I would make the ambushers win but the ambushees be affected by partial surprise (mental stun but IQ rolls with a +1 per additionnal attempt). I think you make both sides roll in case both groups are surprised to see which side recovers first from surprise. Example : You open a door of a room where you thought it was empty only to come face to face with a group of goblins which weren't expecting you and didn't hear you. Like you too, I don't think it would make sense for the defenders to act before the ambushers.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Thats still a partial surprise. The difference between total and partial surprise is that you are totaly surprised when strolling along a road (perhaps even singing :) ) and a ninja/tiger/random bad intentioned thing jumps from the bushes and when you are cautiously walking along the road and waiting for something to happen (hence sense rolls). If you know there are bad things in the woods, you are hardly surprised when bad things jump at you.:)

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

In an Amush type situation, surprise doesn't necessarily even come up. The ambushers simply use Wait maneuvers and/or Opportunity Fire. As soon as the PCs enter withing range, the guns start shooting (or the Orcs use Move and Attack maneuvers). Either way, the ambushed party doesn't get to act because this turn, they spent their actions already - they used a Move maneuver to walk into the trap. So the attacker will get a full turn for free (unless thye're spotted, of course) no matter how high the victims reflexes are.
(as an aside, if the ambushed party isn't even aware of the attack - sudden fire from a hidden machine gun encampment - then they won't get Active Defenses, either).

In the second turn, the ambushed party may very well be surprised (or not, if liberally equipped with Combat Reflexes or ETS), partially or otherwise.

In other words:
Turn 1
PCs: walk into a chasm, failing all Per rolls.
Orcs: start firing crossbows from their hiding places. PCs don't get Active Defense or any other actionbs - they were busy "walking into the chasm"

Turn 2
PCs: check for surprise, if unsurprised, dive for cover
Orcs: continue shooting, this time however talking into account Active Defenses for unsurprised targets

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Everyone has good points, and of course none of them provide concrete answers (it's a matter of taste, seems like). I like Wedhro's method the best, because it is very clean and well-defined, but that doesn't mean anyone else's opinions are anny less valid.

I think that the status of any two parties can be described as on of the five choices below, EXCEPT for planned ambushes! They are a special case.

READINESS OF GROUP

• Members are all quite wary and strongly suspect that an attack is imminent.
• Members are alert to their surroundings and prepared to react to events.
• Members are going about their business, not especially relaxed or wary.
• Members are relaxed and aren't even thinking about possible dangers.
• Members are asleep or otherwise totally unprepared for an attack.

Using that list, all the rules for Surprise make sense if you compare the readiness of the two groups. The fuzziness comes when you consider actual ambushes. Ambushes are a special case because it's the one time the would-be attackers have dug in and actually planned a sneak attack on an enemy. I think they should be handled as total surprise if none of the defenders notice the amush before the ambush is sprung, no matter HOW alert the defenders are. If the defenders DO catch the ambush before it is sprung, then you would proceed normally (both groups would be classified then as "Members are all quite wary and strongly suspect that an attack is imminent.")

I just answered my own question, I think.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

A crucial component that people are missing is this: In an ambush, if the ambushers make their Camouflage and/or Stealth rolls, and/or the victims make their rolls against Observation or Per by less or not at all, then the victims don't spot the ambushers. That's the entire point of Camouflage and Stealth; see the skill text. A person who hasn't detected a potential attacker doesn't get a defense roll when that foe attacks; see the bottom of the first column on p. B374. So if it's an ambush (i.e., attackers remain unspotted) and not a risky assault by the intended victims (i.e., would-be ambushers have good positions but are sighted and engaged), the ambushers ALWAYS get one free attack against no defenses.

AFTER that attack, you resolve surprise.

If the victims of the ambush were wary, use Partial Surprise. The opposing leader -- if he wasn't killed in the opening salvo -- might rally his men and take the initiative. This is why there's a modifier for one side being leaderless; always shoot at the guy with the radio. However, this is a situation where one side is more alert than the other, as flagged in the rules, and the ambushers should get a large bonus. Between that and taking out leaders, the modifiers should favor the ambushers. It isn't automatic, though.

Even if the ambushers somehow lose the initiative, all this really does is give the victims a "lull" in which to move, find cover, and/or look for their attackers. This is assuming that the ambush was a good one -- i.e., the leader of the ambushers made his Tactics roll -- and the ambushers are hidden some distance away from a location that offers their prey little cover. Victims who choose to counterattack might get a second or two in which to do so, but they aren't likely to hit anything if they're shooting at dug-in, concealed ambushers.

If the victims were caught with their pants down, use Total Surprise. In that case, the ambushers will continue to get "free attacks" until their victims do something useful.

In either case, once all surprise wears off, the ambushers will still have the advantages of bracing, concealment, cover, high ground, and/or properly deployed heavy weapons -- again, assuming their leader made his Tactics roll. Even if the victims seize the initiative, they won't be scoring hits with the same reliability as their attackers.

An example might look like this:

1st Platoon digs in around a barren stretch of road that LT Smith knows the enemy must traverse (successful roll against Smith's Tactics-12). SFC Jones has them place Claymores and set up MGs on high ground overlooking the road, and hide their positions with scrub and netting (successful roll against Jones' Tactics-14). The GM gives them +1 for equipment (nets and facepaint) and +2 more for having lots of time. The average trooper has Camouflage-12 (it's an Easy skill), so they roll against 15.

The enemy comes zooming up the road. Their scout is good -- Observation-15 -- and has binoculars (+3), but he's scanning cover that's 15 yards offroad, from a moving Jeep that's doing 30mph. He has a speed/range penalty of -7, making his roll 11. It's a Quick Contest of 11 vs. 15 to spot the enemy, and he loses by 4.

Smith waits until the enemy vehicles are within the kill zone, then gives the order. Claymores detonate. MGs bark. Rifles fire. The platoon's crack shot, PFC Pyle, drills the enemy leader through the helmet. Nobody on the opposing side gets any chance to dive for cover against this initial onslaught.

Now we check for surprise. The GM rules that becaue the enemy had a scout and knew to expect hostiles in the area, this can't be total surprise. Both sides roll 1d for partial surprise. There's almost certainly somebody with Combat Reflexes on both sides: +1. Tactics skill is evenly matched, and both sides have it: +1. The now-leaderless enemy is at -2 for losing their CO. And the GM assesses Smith and friends +4 because the enemy lost the initial Quick Contest of Observation vs. Camouflage by that much, and it's a good measure of relative alertness. So Smith rolls 1d+6 while the enemy rolls 1d. Smith of course wins, and the enemy takes fire for several more seconds before they can react.

Let's say Pyle missed his shot. Then Smith would roll 1d+6 against the enemy's 1d+2.

Smith could roll 1+6 = 7 against the enemy's 5+2 = 7, or 2+6 = 8 against the enemy's 6+2 = 8. In that case, there are no surprise attacks. The enemy still has to find cover that's 15 yards away, take time to spot their attackers, and fire back at a slightly elevated target that has cover, at a -8 or so. Smith and pals have only the -5 for range, and will be shooting aimed (+5 for assault rifles and LMGs) and braced (+1) at visible targets -- and probably rolling at +1 or so.

Smith could roll 1+6 = 7 against the enemy's 6+2 = 8 . . . it's a 2.8% chance, but it could happen. The enemy leader leaps into action and barks the order for a planned response! The enemy drivers veer off left and right at speed, men diving out facing the sides of the road. Some actually leave the kill zone, while others are prone, and one of Smith's squads has to dive out of the path of an unmanned Jeep coming in at 30 mph. Smith has to spend a few seconds giving orders. Jones is yelling at his men to move that MG. The enemy still has to find cover that's 15 yards away, take time to spot their attackers, and fire back at a slightly elevated target that has cover . . . but they get a few seconds to do this without being fired on at +1. They're still at -8 if they choose to shoot, though.

Things could be worse. The GM could give far less than +4 to Smith -- perhaps the enemy had better scouts, or a thermograph, or even a warning from an aircraft. Then the enemy leader is expecting an ambush and ready for it. All Smith controls is where, not what. He could actually find the tables turned when he fires that first shot, because the response could be a barrage of grenade launcher fire, or even artillery support.

Things could be better. Smith, Jones, Pyle, et al. might be crack troopers with Combat Reflexes, high Tactics, better IQ, etc., and/or the enemy could be green recruits or REMFs with useless training, for up to +3 more on Smith's roll. Or this could be 50 klicks behind the lines, in an area the enemy considers secure, and the convoy could be manned by the tired and wounded leaving the combat zone. In that case, the GM might use total surprise.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

Expertly explained . . . I believe that resolves all of my issues.

Thank you, Dr. Kromm!

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

FWIW when we were practicing this sort of thing the 'order' to fire would generally be the claymores detonating or the MG opening up (after the sergeant tapped the relevant soldier on the sholder). That way there's no worries about the enemy somehow reacting to the shouted order before your guys can (it shouldn't happen, but you never know). It also gets round concerns about guys who don't hear the order and assume the firing is therefore premature and don't join in.

And thus run into the cut-off group's fire zone and get gunned down by them. :)

And then they find the cover has punji stakes and trip-wired mines in it. :)

Or worse, the enemy sees the ambush from outside it, piles out of their vehicles, and assaults from the flank, rolling up the ambushers. This is the worst nightmare of people setting prepared ambushes, BTW.

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

I would like that same example with a difference that guy on a jeep spots the ambush.

Thank you in advance, Dr. Kromm

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

For one thing, it seems a bit rude to assume that Dr. Kromm will spit out page-long explanations on demand; he does so at his leisure, and he's generally considered to be a busy man. For another, what you're asking for was already covered in the example he provided:

Re: Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise
 

I think Rupert put it very succinctly:

Then you just run my long scenario in reverse, with the alerted would-be victims as the ambushers and the former ambushers as the victims, changing the physical details to suit the engagement.