Pinning down a fix
 

Minimal pin fix:
An attempt to pin is a contest of 3/DX between the two figures with the following modifiers:
Add one die to the number of dice a figure needs to roll for each level of Unarmed Combat the foe has above theirs.
Add one die for each five points of ST the foe has above their own (round up so even an advantage of one point of ST adds a die)
To complete the pin the pinner needs to make their own roll and make it by more that the target makes theirs.
Once the pin is in place the pinner may attempt to tie up the target by making another contest. If they fail this roll the target escapes the pin and if they make the roll by more than the target does then they tie them up.


Note that in a contest between a very strong untalented figure against a weak high level UC figure neither is likely to pin the other.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

I have not tried this but my initial reaction is this is good.

I do have questions about this line:
Is there a requirement for having rope to do the tie up? And must the rope have been readied before hand? I mean once you have some one pinned, then having to get rope out may release him/her. If not rope, then what or what else in addition to rope? What about a sacks? (reference: The Hobbit story with the troll putting dwarves in sacks... if I remember that correctly)

BTW, I had an encounter where the players are trying to capture small creatures with sacks. I should look up what I did with that but I expect it is not very different to what you did. I don't recall if I based it on pinning or not but it was a two step plan like yours. Grab then bag.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

Some adjustment should be made for size. A small 1-hex figure should be at a distinct disadvantage over a large 1-hex figure quite separate from ST differences. Tying someone up this way should be extremely difficult.

Here is my more thorough remake of HTH and pinning.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

Needs some rewording. You can attack an adjacent figure while disengaged yourself, and usually at a DX bonus for facing.

"Grappling is a new attack option for all engaged figures" Whataboutism grappling from behind? One arm around the throat and a dagger in the other hand say. (This looks like a HTH attack to me personally, given that you're literally closer than arm's length at this knife point.)

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

So he changes the word "engaged" to "engaging". I guess that would fix it.

Although, an "engaging figure" has a different meaning in most contexts.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

I just don't see the visualization of grappling outside of HTH. Are you really holding somebody whose center of mass is four feet from yours?

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

That's a fair point, but the fact is that you can grapple someone without falling to the ground with him. People really do grapple while standing. This wouldn't be possible if Shostak restricted his rules to HTH.

So, take your pick:

(1) Due to the spacing rules of TFT, you are some distance away from one another when grappling, rather than sharing a hex or
(2) No one can grapple unless they and their victim are both prone.

Shostak's decided that (1) works for him. It doesn't seem stupid to me. The actual placement of pieces on a map shouldn't be taken too literally in any case and if you and I are in adjacent hexes, that doesn't mean that our center of masses are literally 4' apart. (Otherwise, not sure a halfling with a dagger is much of a threat at all. Let him swing and poke! His arms can't reach.)

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

Yes.

Here's some video to help you visualize.

And here's another.

And another.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

I tightened up the wording a bit to simplify things.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

The standing grapples have two figures standing in one hex with long weapons.


That's fine, but GURPS is over that way.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

Henry, it is just common sense (confirmed by direct experience) if one can reach out and punch someone in an adjacent hex, they can grab their arm, shirt, cape, bear, etc.

At times in the videos, the figures do get close, though often not necessarily in the same hex—especially so in the hockey fights. TFT RAW simply doesn’t allow for this. Hence my overhaul of HTH rules.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

It's the houserules section, Henry, not the game system purity forum.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

Sounds good. I'd say being Pinned removes your option to take any action other than trying to break the pin. The pinning character has limited options, such as maintaining the Pin (maybe automatically adding one die to the attempt to break the Pin) or damaging the Pinned foe, by throttling, dislocating limbs, tearing muscle, etc. I'd say they could automatically inflict hth damage each turn during a Pin. I think maybe tying up the Pinned victim might require a roll within the Pin, with the victim breaking free if you fail.

I can imagine this working well for giant spiders tying characters up in webs. 😁

I agree that size should be a factor too.

Cheers,

Sarah

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

The problem of the victim of the pin being "held helpless" for two turns minimum (permanently if the pinner is stronger than the victim) still needs to be dealt with. That is just too powerful of an effect.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

What happens if the pinnie can cast say Sleep just by saying it?

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

Tricky. RAW doesn't say he can't cast a spell that requires no gestures and doesn't give a DX penalty (because, evidently, actions weren't foreseen). On the other hand, it refers to him as "helpless".

You could allow the spell to be cast, with or without a DX penalty.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

If the pinner is wearing iron or steel armor, does it give the pinned wizard a DX adjustment?

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

ITL 136 implies that thrown spells can be cast on figures in the wizard's hex, but doesn't give the procedure.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

We’re forgetting something. What HTH option would one use to cast a spell in HTH?

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

See Adv Melee (1980), page 4.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

That's a good point, though as Henry points out, there was an option in Advanced Combat. TFT Legacy isn't Advanced Combat, but a number of folks have discussed casting in HTH in previous threads.

See Henry's old thread about spells in HTH. (For bonus points, see if you can guess the name of the wizard who found herself in HTH.)

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

Two new options for figures in HTH that might be fun to have...

GAG OPPONENT - instead of attempting to stab, punch, pin, etc. Attempt to clamp a hand over the opponent's mouth. If successful, the opponent cannot voice a spell, cry for help, or shout any information to their friends.

BITE - to be used vs GAG. The mouth is freed for use next turn unless the opponent makes a saving roll vs IQ (or ST??). Bonus to saving roll if gloved. Cannot be used against gauntlets such as normally worn with plate armor.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

The most important thing to do after applying a pin is to Drain Strength into unconsciousness.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

Oh, I'm sure we all regarded that tactic as common knowledge. What else, after all, is a pin good for? What greater good could be gained than replenishing the all-important goblin witch?

The tricky bit, of course, is to bring the opponent down to a multiple of 5 ST before pinning.
So, if he has 5, 10 or 15 ST when pinned, you can drain him to unconsciousness. Otherwise not.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

Aid then drain.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

Well, there's the two turns pinning grants you. I hope you (1) don't miss either DX roll and (2) actually know what the victim's current ST is. It would also be good if you don't end up using more ST on Aid than Drain ST produces.

I'm not sure this is the most important tactic for dealing with a pinned opponent. Why not an IQ 11 Sleep spell instead of Aid plus Drain ST? Or, I don't know, some non-magical tactic? Call for his surrender perhaps? Have the wizard beat him to unconsciousness with her staff?

Too pedestrian?

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

Occult zap is a better choice for pinnies (Once you've drained all you can) so you never accidentally hit your pinner.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

I assumed, since you were using Drain ST, that you weren't aiming to kill the opponent.

As far as occult strike goes, it's an attack, not a thrown spell, so you run the same (very small, per RAW) odds of hitting your ally with it as with any other attack, far as I can tell[1]. Of course, Staff III provides a boost to DX for the attack, but if you play according to RAW, you already have a +4 DX to hit a target in HTH[2] and the same bonus to miss your ally.

A pinned target could be an automatic hit or at least a significant bonus to hit.

[1] Please let me know if I've missed something here.

[2] I've houseruled away the +4 DX bonus to hit someone in HTH, because it makes accidentally hitting an ally too improbable for my liking. A DX 10 attacker has a 9% chance of missing the baddie, followed by a 9% chance of hitting the ally, so less than a 1% chance of accidentally injuring his buddy. Without the +4 bonus, the odds of hitting an ally goes up to 25%.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

Special Spells (including Staff) are noted as being all or nothing at ITL 140. They have no roll to miss.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

But the Occult Strike is not a spell at all. The Staff spell creates a staff which is "an occult weapon". Using it as such is making an attack, not casting a spell.

I disagree with this interpretation of the rules. The spell is made to create a staff. The attack that one can make with the staff isn't a spell at all (with no gestures or incantations, for instance -- I don't regard pointing a weapon as a magical gesture).

I'm pretty sure we've discussed this before, so if my argument didn't convince you then, I reckon it won't convince you now. Anyway, we've rather strayed from issues regarding pinning. I suppose we should drop this derail.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Exactly what I was going to say

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

The wizard's staff is an enchanted item. You pay 1 fatigue per use.

Re: Pinning down a fix
 

And a sword enchanted for +1 damage is an enchanted item. But you're still not casting a spell when you attack with it.