[DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

In GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, nature's strength and sanctity are pretty straightforward: the nature's strength rules come with very clear examples of various penalties, while areas of high/low sanctity presumably correspond to good/evil temples (at least ones above some threshold of importance). But it's much less clear how one should go about placing areas of high or low mana, much less very high or no mana, even though some parts of the game clearly require such areas in order to make sense: liches can only be killed permanently in no-mana areas, and the faerie folk's Dependency on mana is a free 25 points of no-mana zones aren't encountered occasionally.

If we look to DFRPG for guidance, Spells indicates that areas of high/low mana are actually supposed to be more common than areas of high/low sanctity—but "random", which could explain that while clerics often operate in cities (with historic temples), wizards tend to end up making their bases in random spots of wilderness. But the answers in Spells still aren't wholly satisfactory, because it indicates areas of no mana should be plot-device level rare—which causes real problems for explaining how PCs are ever supposed to (permanently) defeat a lich.

So I'm left feeling I don't have a wholly satisfactory approach here. What have people on the forums done in their own campaigns?

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

Drain Mana is available to PI 6 clerics (who don't have Magery to lose), Suspend Mana is at PI 5, and scrolls are available to lich hunters.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

Years before DF, I was part of a fantasy campaign where the mana levels increased the further one went underground, allowing levels to the dungeon of increasing supernatural/magical threat.

The first levels were pretty normal, but the midpoint had magic wielders becoming prominent. The bottom level, of course, being so ridiculously magical that magic was almost as dangerous to the user as the target, making the fighters more important.

It worked out pretty well. Tactics that worked at the beginning were useless later on, which prevented complacency. We had to keep alert.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

Roll 3d6 for each area that comes up and hasn't been resolved yet. High number indicates high mana, low number indicates low mana, 18 means very high mana and 3 means no mana.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

Are liches random encounters in DFRPG? Typically, one would expect a lich to have a role as a lasting, serious antagonist - you don't run into and kill a lich on the way to grab some treasure, you have a longterm quest to take him out. And, of course, the way you do so is by either capturing him somehow and dragging him to the plot-device NMZ, or encountering him near the plot-device NMZ (maybe he has some nefarious plan associated with it) and maneuver him into it before killing him. That, or you just move on to a different area and ignore the lich, like a proper murder-hobo (heroism is overrated).

Of course, if one can create temporary NMZ's (with an appropriate spell, power, scroll, artifact, etc), then you just need one of those (although acquiring such may well be a quest unto itself).

I like this idea, although it may make NMZ's a bit too rare for Dependencies to come into play. Most places should probably be normal mana, of course. So, a rough draft might look like this:Alternatively, you could roll 1d20, and use the following, which I think I like the distribution of a bit more:

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

This is a good point. Leaving these spells out of DFRPG may have been a pretty major error, at least as far as lich-slaying goes.

I like the idea of doing something along these lines, though if you do it for every patch of wilderness it might actually lead to too many very high and no mana zones. It might work for dungeons, where it's plausible both that (1) the dungeon might have been deliberately constructed somewhere with variant mana levels and (2) weird stuff might have happened in the dungeon's history to change the mana levels. For placing high/low mana levels over a wider area, I might do something like, "okay, for each temple important enough to have high/low sanctity, I'll place 1d random high/low mana areas, most likely in the surrounding countryside but in rare cases in the same settlement as the temple."

Pagoda of Worlds does use liches as random encounters. Even setting that aside, capturing and transporting a powerful spellcaster to a no-mana area seems like ultra-hard mode even by the standards of RPG Big Bads. You can of course just have the lich voluntarily go near the NMZ for whatever reason but unless your story behind that is really good players may roll their eyes at the villain's stupidity.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

What happens to a DFRPG lich when reduced to -10xHP? Unless they come back extremely quickly (or literally cannot be stopped without an NMZ), I don't think you'd actually need to outright destroy one to get past it - destroy its body, move on before it grows another one. If the GM decides it holds a grudge against you and decides to come after you... well, that's an arc villain. If they have something more akin to Unkillable 2 than Unkillable 3, of course, you've just got to "kill" them, then carry their remains to an NMZ (hacking at them every so often to prevent regeneration) and unceremoniously dump them there. And yeah, a lich would need a really good reason to be near an NMZ, but that should be doable (maybe the MacGuffin it's searching for is in the area, or even within the NMZ and the lich wants to be close by as soon as its servants retrieve it).

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

You can also dispose of a lich using non-damage methods; casting entombment seems uniquely appropriate, and flesh to stone will work if the GM is willing to consider a lich a valid target for the spell.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

If you want to get really fancy you can use the -10 (no mana) to +10 (Very high Mana) of continuous mana with normal (0) on 10 (this is where the cumulative percentage is 50.0%) with each number ±2.

Yes this makes 15-18 No mana but the cumulative percentage of getting 15 or higher is 4.5% (100.0-95.4) which is effectively a 1 on a d20 (auto failure under 1 and 20 rule)

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

This also means -2 mana (roll of 11) is as common as Normal (roll of 10), which feels a bit... off. Unless you're saying it's Normal Mana for a roll of 3-10, either +2 or -2 for a roll of 11 (flip a coin), either +4 or -4 for a roll of 12, etc.

If using -10 for No Mana and +10 for Very High Mana, I'd probably be more inclined to have it be Normal for 10 or 11, and +1 per deviation (probably - below 10, + above 11). That appears to only allow for a range of +7, but I'd have 3's, 4's, 17's, and 18's "explode" - a roll of 17 is +6, and you reroll and add the result of that roll to the +6 (alternatively, to make NMZ's and Very High Mana more rare, only have 3's and 18's explode). Note an explosion can either have no effect or make the effect more pronounced, it can't suppress it (so if you roll a 3 - for -7 - and then roll a 15 - for +5 - you actually just stay with -7), and you can't go below -10 or above +10.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

Even that may not be enough. LIches by their very nature (or at least the D&D version) have Unkillable 3 as their souls are actually in a phylactery. If the lich is using the "Blueprint for a Lich" (Dragon #26, June, 1979) playbook than they will have a well preserved dead body within 90 feet of the phylactery as a back up.

Put the current body into a NMZ and the connection between soul and body is severed and the soul just hops from the phylactery to the waiting corpse. Worst yet D&D liches will teleport to their phylactery before getting to the point where they will be unable to do so.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

It is for the version written up in DFRPG; it has unkillable 3 with an achilles heel.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

While I don't have the relevant DFRPG book to check their stats there, I did check the stats for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy liches (from Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1). Those do indeed have Unkillable 3, but no mention of a phylactery, and no traits that improve their healing rate (indeed, they actually don't heal at all while corporeal). So, if you encounter one randomly, you could indeed just beat it down to -10xHP, ideally with Crushing weapons (which deal double damage, and readily shatter limbs... although liches generally don't need those to cast spells). That's by no means easy, particularly considering that, while they don't have much HP (only 10), they've got a lot of spells at high skill levels, a large ER to draw on, and typically have an army of undead supporting them (their description mentions them being able to body hop to said undead if their body is destroyed, but they don't seem to have any trait that would allow this, nor are any rules given for when and how this happens). But considering any lich who's body you do destroy isn't going to be around for a few months (with HT 14, it should take the lich a bit under 120 days to recover the 110 HP of Injury it took to destroy it), unless it's a particularly large dungeon (or the GM opts to turn the lich into an arc villain, as I mentioned upthread), destroying it once is probably enough to avoid ever needing to deal with it again.

Then again, the lich also lacks any traits that would allow it to avoid consciousness checks below HP 0. So, drop it below 0, wait for it to pass out (with HT 14, that would take on average around 11 seconds to happen - but dropping its HP further worsens the roll, so you could drop it to -4xHP and it will likely fail within 2 seconds), and now you've got an unconscious lich on your hands. Normally, said lich would get a chance to awaken each hour, but if you got it below -1xHP (or just beat on it some more once it's unconscious - might as well break off all its arms and legs), it gets a single chance at 12 hours to wake up, or it never will until either some necromancer comes along to fix it up or it gets destroyed. Again, with HT 14 it's got a pretty good chance of waking up, but then you just bash its skull against the ground and it'll pass out for another 12 hours (with another chance to get trapped in a coma) in short order (at least until you manage to damage it enough that it's destroyed). That should make it possible to transport it to the nearest NMZ for disposal. I suspect the authors of DFM1 didn't really intend for this to be a legitimate means of permanently destroying the lich, however (indeed, I think most authors who give a monster Unkillable expect it to keep fighting until it reaches -10xHP, not pass out halfway there).

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

I doubt it is going to be that easy. If the lich suspects it is in danger of passing out it will use any appropriate spells to get out of the situation.

Interestingly the Fantasy Lich does not have Unkillable which is...weird.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

Provided it can cast them quickly enough, yes. While I said "wait for it to pass out," what's more likely is that you'd continue to press the attack - not only does this make it difficult for the lich to continue casting spells (at least those with duration over a second, although once you've removed its arms and legs you could probably do Wait: Attack as soon as it starts casting a spell*), but every multiple of HP you drop it makes it more likely that it will pass out. Then again, with Will 18, the lich has a pretty good chance of just ignoring any such distraction (rolling against 15); Stunning will let you bypass that high Will, and it's not too difficult for many DF characters to deal a Major Wound to a lich (5 cr, 6 cut, or 8 burn/imp will do it), but with HT 14 and no hit locations to penalize this, it can't be relied upon either.

Of course, if the lich is losing and retreats... no more lich. Again, the GM could turn it into a vengeful arc villain, but unless the PC's opt to pursue it, a lich that was driven to retreat is going to be best served just cutting its losses and giving the party a wide berth (also, it may well take quite some time for it to heal itself, if it even can given the penalty to Healing spells cast on oneself while injured). Note here we're talking about a random encounter with a lich, where the lack of NMZ's is the most problematic (for a major villain, part of the "destroy the lich" quest is figuring out a way to actually get the lich to an NMZ, or finding some other way of bypassing their Unkillable 3).

*With most (or all) of its spells at Skill 20 or higher, it doesn't need to gesture or speak to cast a spell, just concentrate. I'm not sure someone watching would be able to even realize the lich were casting a spell, at least in time to disrupt it. But if they can, that above Wait should work.

It may be the idea there is immortality in the sense of not dying from old age, rather than being unable to be killed. It's odd if the template doesn't even have Unkillable 1 - I think most GURPS undead either have at least that (you've got to destroy them outright for them to stay dead) or Fragile: Unnatural.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

More Fragile (Unnatural) than Unkillable 1. I'd have to check but I can't think of anything that actually has Unkillable 1. It's usually 2 or 3.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

It might make sense to tie the mana level roll to an existing thing, like the Reaction Table.

For instance:

0 or less: No mana
1 to 3: Very low mana (see Thaumatology)
4 to 6: Low mana
7 to 9: Normal mana with some negative aspected mana (see Thaumatology)
8 to 12: Normal mana
13 to 15: Normal mana with some positively aspected mana
16 to 18: High mana
19 or better: Very high mana

And then a wider region could have a positive or negative reputation for having high or low mana (such as Caithness in Banestorm for low mana and the desert for no mana), and rolling there would add a positive or negative modifier to the roll depending on the reputation.

Note: all mana levels (with the exception of no mana, I guess) can have positive or negative aspected mana too. Didn't add those to other than the normal mana to create differentation.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

The more I think about this, the more it feels like Suspend Mana and Drain Mana are absolutely essential to wizardly magic working as intended. One interesting thing about these spells is that Drain Mana in particular is vastly cheaper than most other methods if you want lasting protection for an area (the one partial exception I see is Pentagram, and because its cost scales with area rather than radius, it's really only cheaper if you're protecting a single hex). In a world where wizardly magic is the only type, I expect small areas that have been subject to Drain Mana would be extremely common and serve a variety of purposes: jail cells, "safe rooms", or simply places where people can talk with a guarantee they won't be scried upon. Dungeon Fantasy complicates things because Drain Mana will only protect you against one of several types of hostile magic, but the spell might at least be popular among clerics who want to maximize their "home field advantage" in their temples, or at least certain sections thereof.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

There is also Wild Mana which depending on the setting either is a form of aspected mana or a level of mana above Very High. - Thaumatology p 59.

From what the DMG1 said D&D worlds are clearly akin to Wild Mana thanks to the connections to the various planes:

"All magic and cleric spells are similar in that the word sounds, when combined into whatever patterns are applicable, are charged with energy from the Positive or Negative Material Plane. (...) The triggering action draws power from some plane of the multiverse" DMG1 pg 40

Then there Pure Mana (also called Raw Magic) where one option is it five times more efficient than normal mana. - Thaumatology p 227

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

I left wild mana out as it's complicated.

Raw Magic is more like itemized energy reserve that can be collected from nature and stored in yourself if you have the requisite advantage, also a bit different.

Then there's also Toxic mana, which I've left out as well from the example.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

Those spells are pretty ugly to cast, though. A critical failure with Suspend Mana loses you one level of Magery for 2d days, and has a change to lose it forever, while a critical failure with the Drain Mana just loses you that level of Magery forever.

Also, I'm not entirely sure if the Suspend Mana and Drain Mana on the DF Cleric's list are supposed to affect mana or sanctity, probably mana. If they have a critical failure with those spells, they're going to lose a level of PI, that's for sure.

But yeah, in a place like Yrth, there's bound to be plenty of no mana places around as the result of mages of the old draining places for their own use (and maybe using a chunk of their power in the process).

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

Not complicated but insane in how much you can do with area spells.

Or it could be that the Yrth wizards created patches of Mana Vortex minerals. Mana Vortex is an interesting (and canonical) quirk as it turns any area it is in into a no mana area.

"Most Mana Vortices are 1 to 3 hexes in radius, but there are rumors of Vortices with radii of up to 300 hexes." (Classic: Magic Items 1 p 64)

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

I would assume Suspend Mana and Drain Mana effect mana even when cast by a cleric. It seems weird for clerics to directly be lowering sanctity, since high sanctity for Good generally means low sanctity for Evil and vice versa.

But good point about the risk of losing a level of Magery/PI. So probably won't be used willy-nilly, but I think in the setting I've been working on I will, at the very least, tend to assume that areas with Very High sanctity have also had their mana drained to protect them against wizardly interference.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

I would assume that mana altering spells are projects for NPCs, like say, enchanting. Which basically they are. So if the master of the dungeon wants a conveniently place no mana zone around their treasure vault or above that crevasse to keep people from levitating to the other side to use the extending bridge controls, they can have it.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

Unless you hold that sanctity is a special form of Aspected Mana (as on Roma Arcana) that makes no sense. The default is mana and sanctity don't interact.

In the Roma Arcana mana actually represents the availability of spirits to perform spells for the mage rather than "energy".

Since in Roma Arcana the major numen ("deities") assign duties to the spirits where belief in them is strong Sanctity increases at the cost of mana. (Fantasy p 201)

This puts Isis, who followers use Magery, in an interesting situation. Normally her temples would increase Sanctity at the cost of mana but that would make put her followers at a major disadvantage compared to other numen (the Western equivalent of kami). Exactly how she squares this circle is left up to the GM.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

The default is that mana and sanctity are are different. That doesn't mean that a sanctity fueled "spell" can't affect mana. There are after all, such things as gods of magic.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

Reread the post I was replying to:

"I would assume Suspend Mana and Drain Mana effect mana even when cast by a cleric. It seems weird for clerics to directly be lowering sanctity, since high sanctity for Good generally means low sanctity for Evil and vice versa."

Why would changing mana have any effect on sanctity unless you are following Roma Archana guidelines?

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

Yeah, that's a statement that the cleric versions of the spell still work on mana rather than being changed to acting to lower sanctity.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

I might add that in Classic a cleric could use Consecrate and Desecrate to directly and quickly change sanctity levels (GURPS Religion p 103)

It would kind of weird for a deity of magic (like Isis) to allow their clerics to cast Suspend Mana or Drain Mana as it is effectively cuts into their worship which if they are under 'get everything' rules hurts them.

Lina inverse said it best; it is effecting 'give me some of your power so I can hurt you'. If you were wondering that was because some idiot of a mage tried to cast Dragon Slave on Ruby Eye Shabranigdo. Problem is Dragon Slave is powered by Ruby Eye Shabranigdo. Needless to say the mage didn't last long.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

She who gives can also take away. Propitiatory worship is a thing.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

The thing is in polytheistic religions spheres tend to have overlap. Ares, Athena, and Aphrodite Areia were all Greek war deities. Aphrodite Areia was only worshiped in Sparta and when it fell she effectively became irrelevant.

So one deity of magic wants to play hardball but other doesn't. The hardball deity allows mana areas to be reduced in power or destroyed but the other deity does the exact opposite.

As I said before if you are going with the deities get everything from their followers concept the hardball deity will be basically cutting off her nose to spite her face.

The more she tries to gain control the less worshipers she has and the less power she has - she is in an effectively death spiral and will be reduced to a deity of divine magic able to only effect sanctity before too much time passes.

If she still refuses to get the memo she will wind up like Aphrodite Areia - no worshipers and therefore irrelevant to the mortal world.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

What would the exact opposite be? Bear in mind that that deity of magic will also boost magic for her followers. Also there's a market for a deity of magic who protects you from hostile magic. In fact that's most of what people pray to a deity of magic for.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

Depends on what happens to the missing mana. "Reduce the level of mana in one area to increase it in another" is totally useful. For example, casting Restore Mana might require casting Drain Mana somewhere else.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

I was thinking of Bazangi a deity in a fellow DM's campaign.

The deities there were all saving their power for a major threat except Bazangi who grants boons on a whim. Problem is not only is he out of his head crazy but he had a weird scene of humor. He was the sort of deity that if you wished for a magic weapon you wound up with a +2 Rubber chicken that functioned as a mace in terms of damage. If he was in a really silly mood he's go "Well I'm out of chicken, so here have an eraser that does a lot of damage when thrown at a target" :-)

The thing is even though Bazangi was Planter's Special levels of crazy he was the most worshiped deity because he was granting boons - even if they looked silly. But since deities got their power from worshipers they realized not listening to worshipers as they had been not only didn't they have need power to fight the coming danger but they had a new head deity: Bazangi. Oops.

Depending on the setting "harmful" can be a relative term. For example, in warcraft healing spells hurt undead. Spells that promote peace would be harmful to a deity of war and so on.

Also unless the deity is given out Power Investiture with large areas like free candle samples "boost magic for her followers" doesn't work because since the mana level is trashed their magic is shot as well.

Remember unlike Mana the default for Sanctity is akin to a zero-sum game; for the Sanctity of one deity to rise their opposite/rival has to fall so trying to go the Sanctity route.

You could have what happened between D&D 3.5 and 4.0 where the goddess of magic, Mystra, was killed. Magic when wild and many of the old rules went out the window. Things were such a mess that her pantheon in desperation found a way to recreate her though there are still elements of the Spellplague to clean up.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

Uhn--what? I'm not thinking in terms of draining the mana from huge tracts of land. Clerics wouldn't be able to do that anyway.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

I get the game balance reason for not having a dangerous spell risk consequences that do not apply to the caster, but I'm struggling to come up with a narrative rationale. Divine powers are granting (or declining to grant) that prayer for their own reason(s). What reason would a god capable of granting the ability to remove mana have for worsening his priests connection to him over a failed casting of this spell (or really any spell generally, that sort of danger is better represented by Pact or Disciplines of Faith IMO)?

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

While I'm not a fan of extreme consequences for Critical Failures (and losing levels of an Advantage would certainly qualify), you could say the cleric ended up angering his/her deity with the casting attempt, leading to revocation of some of the granted power. Alternatively, if the cleric's personal power plays a role in the connection to the deity (otherwise, why wouldn't a deity just empower their champion to PI 10 or whatever the limit is from the beginning?), you could say that the failure damaged the character's connection to the deity (or damaged the character's ability to handle diving magic flowing through him/her*), so until this can be built back up, the cleric is going to be weaker when it comes to spells.

*It's based on Pathfinder (and thus Dungeons and Dragons), and so has daily limits to spellcasting, but I like the way the webcomic Marble Gate Dungeon handles it. To quote the author from the comment section on the page the limit was first mentioned in the comic: "Casting divine magic is painful, because you're channeling a god or higher being through your fragile mortal body. As you do it more, and your connection to said god deepens, it becomes easier to do more and is less painful, but you still have limits. Once you go over your limit, your body starts to fall apart and you'll almost certainly die. Dying this way is horrifically painful, and is completely forbidden in the Church of the Highfather." When the main character, Coleeen, first acquired this ability, she'd get pretty close to her limit with just a single spell, but over time she built up a tolerance and can cast her main spells a few times per day (the cantrip she uses to turn her holy symbol into a light source she appears to be able to use without much limit).

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

Actually in the Roma Arcana setting Clerics do have that ability because the relationship between mana and sanctity. I worked out a way to build Objects of Power (Classic: Religion) in 4e (as gadgets):

*Object of Power (Minor) [600]: Sanctity Enhancer 2 [100] + Wild Sanctity Generator [100] (+200%: Area Effect 4 hexes +200%)
*Object of Power (Major) [800]: Sanctity Enhancer 2 [100] + Wild Sanctity Generator [100] (+300%: lingering Sanctity effect +100%; Area Effect 4 hexes +200%)

Sanctity Enhancer and Wild Sanctity Generator are nothing more than Mana Enhancer and Wild Mana Generator with the (Sanctity Replaces Mana, ±0%) modifier.

It would be child's play for a deity to add Mana Damper to the above package.

Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy
 

Interesting change from AD&D1 which is what I played back in the day. Back then deities provided a channel through which Clerics accessed the planes and that was where they got their power - not the deities:

"All magic and cleric spells are similar in that the word sounds, when combined into whatever patterns are applicable, are charged with energy from the Positive or Negative Material Plane. (...) The triggering action draws power from some plane of the multiverse" DMG1 pg 40.

Note this expressly states that energy for cleric spell comes from the Positive or Negative Material Plane and yes it didn't make much sense back then either.