Martial Arts Questions
 

I'm working on a campaign that is sort of The Running Man + The Hunger Games + Escape from New York, but will focus around the PCs being skilled unarmed/armed warrior and having to fight their way through a gauntlet of gangs and other foes to win their freedom.

In doing so, I'm digging really deeply into Martial Arts as I am going to use the different styles, techniques, and perks to differentiate the characters from one another.

This deep dive has raised a few questions for me that the books don't sufficiently answer, or maybe that I just haven't look hard enough, so I'm asking the community for assistance.

1. Is there a reason why all of the various KICKING Techniques (Axe Kick, Back Kick, Jump Kick, etc.) default to Karate instead of Kicking? It gets REALLY pricey to improve more than one of those techniques, and seems like if you focus on getting better at "kicking", then all of your kicks should improve, not JUST your "front snap" or whatever the KICKING technique covers.

2. Choke Holds. So Tracheal Chokes inflict crushing damage to the neck AND suffocation (FP loss), but what about Blood Chokes? I know they are used predominately to induce FP loss, not Injury, but do they still cause MoV damage? The write-up in Martial Arts isn't super clear...and you can read it like the MoV in the QC causes immediate FP damage, and maintaining the choke causes 1 FP/sec after that, but I'm not sure that is correct.

3. The text for Ear Clap mentions that it is generally more effective if you clap both ears rather than 1, but based on the text, it seems like all that does make the victim Deaf for 2d seconds. I get how debilitating that can be in a multi-threat combat environment, but mechanically it just doesn't seem impactful at all for the IMMEDIATE fight...certainly not worth compromising your ability to Defend (AoA Double) or drastically reducing your accuracy because of Rapid Strike penalties. Am I missing something?

4. The Drop Kick test is a little ambiguous in how it is resolved. It's clear that it requires a Move and Attack and at least 1 yard of movement. It's clear that the damage the Attacker rolls is Slam Cr dmg +2. What's not clear is if the attacker takes damage too like in a Slam (seems odd for that maneuver to cause damage to the attacker). And if a hit results in only one damage roll, does that mean the defender automatically has to roll DX or fall prone? Since 1 is more than double 0, is it an automatic knock down if the defender suffers 1 or more points of damage?

Re: Martial Arts Questions
 

All Techniques with "Kick" in their names did Default top Kicking in 3e. The deliberate change in 4e should indicate that the PTB didn't like how that worked out.

As a general rule you shouldn't be even trying to raise multiple Tecniques. It's not points efficient for any of them after the first. You buy up the core skill instead.

Exceptions to this rule are for cases where a Technique offers a unique capability rather than another option out of many similar ones.

Re: Martial Arts Questions
 

I humbly suggest adding the original version of The Warriors to your inspirational material if you haven't already. It more-or-less follows the exact premise you describe, set in a bleak 1970s NYC chock full of cartoonishly stylized gangs dreamed up by somebody who has never known or researched a gang. (Of course there's a gang that all dresses as mimes! Sure, they get enough respect for an invite to the big summit meeting. What?) Chock full of hand-to-hand combat, and hilarious to boot.

One Technique can't default to another, and generally it's not a great idea to independently improve more than one Technique of the same base Skill. If you want to be good at all of the above things, raise Karate.

Re: Martial Arts Questions
 

In addition to being a tightly plotted movie, it's also has the most psychologically unnerving non-combat use of beer bottles in film history.

The quick and dirty solution might be to allow some of the simpler kicking techniques to default to Brawling skill, which would suit the campaign better than Karate.

Re: Martial Arts Questions
 

Iirc, it's MoV each turn. Air chokes are crushing damage, blood chokes are FP damage (so it's always one or the other).

Re: Martial Arts Questions
 

I've heard a lot of good things about that movie, so I will for sure check it out!

Fred Brackin basically said the same thing above, so this comment is really for both of you.

I totally understand points efficiency, but I am pregenerating a pool of characters for this campaign and I'm aiming more for "variety of combat options" thank ultra points efficiency.

Investing in Techniques will help differentiate the characters from one another and give them some guidelines on what they should be doing in a fight.

I'm also trying to cap base skill at 16 or less to keep the characters in a more realistic range of skill capabilities. Sure, Skill at DX+7 is way more efficient than skill at DX+2 and 20 points of techniques, but that just doesn't work for this campaign. Plus the latter serves the additional purposes of keeping defenses, DA capability, and Rapid Strike accuracy down, which is what I need.

Hopefully that clears up my approach some.

Re: Martial Arts Questions
 

So, why not give each of the pregens Karate 16 and one or two maxed-out Techniques? That way they each have all of the options available, but are prevented from being the same as each other.

Re: Martial Arts Questions
 

I wasn't criticizing you.

You asked if there was a reason and I told you that the PTB probably didin't like the way it worked out in 3e. Then I made a general remark about accepted theory of martial arts builds.

It sounds as if it won't matter how the points add up so buy up as many Techniques as you want..

Re: Martial Arts Questions
 

Additional suggestion: If points are no object, you might consider Martial Arts Style Wildcard Skills. Introduced somewhere in 4e MA (no time to dig up the page reference right now, sorry), these function as all of the Skills and Techniques of a given Style at their full level, allowing your intended 16 cap as well as a range of Techniques also at 16 that can be different for each PC just by varying their Styles.

Re: Martial Arts Questions
 

My apologies if my reply came across as hostile. It wasn't meant to be in the slightest. I was just trying to kill one bird with two stones.

Your insights about how in worked in 3rd edition were enlightening and appreciated.

I suppose what I was seeking in response to #1 was some insight into the design reason for not having the advanced kicking techniques default to kicking instead of Karate. Gold & Apple Inc said that it's a design rule in 4E that techniques cannot default to techniques, which I get, but I am curious WHY, especially since that didn't seem to be the case in 3E.

Re: Martial Arts Questions
 

I'm essentially doing what you suggested in your top reply, but much more complicated because I am apparently a masochist. :-)

I've setup the characters with mixed skills. Some have Karate and Judo. One has Boxing with no grappling skills, but Clinch and Neck Control. One has Brawling and Wrestling. One has just Karate and a plethora of kicking techniques, and so on.

I am shooting for enough granularity where each character can fight effectively, but in a different manner than the others. The Wildcard approach, I fear, is probably too broad and would result in most of the PCs being too "samey".

My plan is to have 10 pregens for the 4 players. They will only pick one of the pregen's to play, but can pick another as a backup in the event that their first choice dies or gets crippled/unable to fight.

So making 10 characters that all fight a little differently is tough, event with all the perks and techniques in Martial Arts.

Re: Martial Arts Questions
 

That's not true. There is at least one example: Finger lock defaults to Arm/Wrist Lock.

The reason kicks were split off from what I understand is one of realism and game balance: In 3e you could up Kicking and up every other kicking technique there was. People a lot more skilled in martial arts than most said, "It shouldn't work like that."

You could use Skill Adaptation to default some kicks to Kicking on a per kick type basis, but the GM would need to sign off on it.

Re: Martial Arts Questions
 

I would be guessing but my guess would be that the issue was probably complexity. 3e Martial Arts was ugly and complicated compared to MA 4e. The 3e book got started as a way to patch a coimabt sytme that didn't realy work that well for people who weren't Knights in heavy armor and carrying shields. The 3e book was necessary at the time but Martial Arts is one of the books that I consider a big improvemnt for 4e.

Keeping track of all the Defaults from Kicking to all the "Kick" Techniques was a part of the complications.

Also, one of the reasons MA works better in 4e might be a unified vision about basic rules principles and the "no Techniques Defaulting to other Techniques" might just be one of those basic principles.

Re: Martial Arts Questions
 

Thanks a ton to everyone who has replied so far.

I think I am pretty well set on an answer to number 1, but I still need help with my other items. Any thoughts/feedback?

2. Choke Holds. So Tracheal Chokes inflict crushing damage to the neck AND suffocation (FP loss), but what about Blood Chokes? I know they are used predominately to induce FP loss, not Injury, but do they still cause MoV damage? The write-up in Martial Arts isn't super clear...and you can read it like the MoV in the QC causes immediate FP damage, and maintaining the choke causes 1 FP/sec after that, but I'm not sure that is correct.

3. The text for Ear Clap mentions that it is generally more effective if you clap both ears rather than 1, but based on the text, it seems like all that does make the victim Deaf for 2d seconds. I get how debilitating that can be in a multi-threat combat environment, but mechanically it just doesn't seem impactful at all for the IMMEDIATE fight...certainly not worth compromising your ability to Defend (AoA Double) or drastically reducing your accuracy because of Rapid Strike penalties. Am I missing something?

4. The Drop Kick test is a little ambiguous in how it is resolved. It's clear that it requires a Move and Attack and at least 1 yard of movement. It's clear that the damage the Attacker rolls is Slam Cr dmg +2. What's not clear is if the attacker takes damage too like in a Slam (seems odd for that maneuver to cause damage to the attacker). And if a hit results in only one damage roll, does that mean the defender automatically has to roll DX or fall prone? Since 1 is more than double 0, is it an automatic knock down if the defender suffers 1 or more points of damage?

Re: Martial Arts Questions
 

(Repeating just in case)

Iirc, it's MoV each turn. Air chokes are crushing damage, blood chokes are FP damage (so it's always one or the other).