[DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Part 1

Just to take a break from working on the details of my non-DF campaign, here's some more DF content!

A cool idea that's been explored before is the Evil PCs campaign, where you play the opposite of heroics and do all the fun naughty stuff. Alternatively, a Suicide Squad-esque DF campaign would be fun too. Stranger still, a party of PCs all with varying tastes in morals would be quite intriguing... a "Avengers assemble!" scale of impending doom where the heroes of Good and the villains of Evil must band together to even stand a chance against the threat of The Unthinkable Eldritch Horrors.

The iconic Evil Wizard is the Lich. What I've got here is a worked example of what a Lich PC (or NPC too, he'd make a very fun villain) might look like for a DF game. I've included some really cool Evil Wizard stuff too; unlike the Evil Cleric and Unholy Warrior whose powers are granted by the Bad God, the Evil Wizards abilities are fueled by pure Evil, assumed to be a tangible force of nature itself which I think is appropriate to the genre.

Oswald the Violet

Primary Attributes: ST 10 [0]; DX 12 [40]; IQ 16 [120]; HT 11 [10].

Secondary Characteristics:
Damage 1d-2/1d
BL 20 lbs.
HP 10 [0]
Will 16 [0]
Per 15 [-5]
FP N/A [0]
Basic Speed 6.00 [5]
Basic Move 7 [5]

Advantages:
Doesn’t Breathe [20]
Doesn’t Eat or Drink [10]
Doesn’t Sleep [20]
Immunity to Metabolic Hazards [30]
Injury Tolerance (No Blood; No Brain; No Eyes; No Vitals; Unliving) [40]
Intuitive Cantrip (Aid) [1]
Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) 24 [24]
Magery 6 (Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) Only, -80%) [17]
Protected Power (Magic) [5]
Psychic Guidance (Lightning) [1]
Signature Gear (Crystal Ball, 2”) [1]

Disadvantages:
Appearance (Monstrous; Universal, +25%) [-25]
Fragile (Brittle) [-15]
No Sense of Smell/Taste [-5]
Sense of Duty (Adventuring companions) [-5]
Skinny [-5]
Social Stigma (Dead) [-20]
Unhealing (Partial; Magical healing only) [-20]
Vulnerability (Crushing x2) [-30]
Wealth (Dead Broke) [-25]
Weirdness Magnet [-15]

Quirks:
Attentive [-1]
Broad-Minded [-1]
Cannot float [-1]
Eccentric [-1]
Insensitive [-1]
Proud [-1]

Features: Affected by Pentagram and True Faith. Detects as Evil. May heal via spells or by being drenched in healing potion. Unaging.

Languages:
Common (Native) [0]
Elvish: Spoken (None)/Written (Native) [3]
Dwarvish: Spoken (None)/Written (Native) [3]
Goblinish: Spoken (Native)/Written (None) [3]

Skills:
Alchemy-15 [4]
Architecture-15 [1]
Cartography-15 [1]
Diplomacy-15 [2]
First Aid-16 [1]
Hazardous Materials (Magical)-15 [1]
Hidden Lore (Magical Writings)-15 [1]
Leadership-15 [1]
Occultism-15 [1]
Research-15 [1]
Savior-Faire (High Society)-16 [1]
Scrounging-15 [1]
Speed-Reading-15 [1]
Stealth-12 [2]
Strategy-15 [2]
Tactics-15 [2]
Teaching-15 [1]
Thaumatology-19 [1]
Writing-15 [1]
 
Spells:
Air Vision-20 [1]
Analyze Magic-20 [1]
Apportation-20 [1]
Aura-20 [1]
Continual Light-20 [1]
Counterspell-20 [1]
Create Air-20 [1]
Deflect Missile-20 [1]
Detect Magic-20 [1]
Dispel Magic-20 [1]
Divination (Crystal-Gazing)-20 [1]
Earth Vision-20 [1]
History-20 [1]
Identify Spell-20 [1]
Iron Arm-20 [1]
Itch-20 [1]
Lend Energy-20 [1]
Light-20 [1]
Lightning-20 [1]
Lockmaster-20 [1]
Mage Sight-20 [1]
Missile Shield-20 [1]
Mystic Mist-20 [1]
Pain-20 [1]
Purify Air-20 [1]
Recover Energy-20 [1]
Resist Pain-20 [1]
See Secrets-20 [1]
Seeker-20 [1]
Seek Earth-20 [1]
Seek Magic-20 [1]
Shape Air-20 [1]
Shape Earth-20 [1]
Share Energy-20 [1]
Shield-20 [1]
Spasm-20 [1]
Steal Energy-20 [1]
Steal Vitality-20 [1]
Stench-20 [1]
Trace-20 [1]
Umbrella-20 [1]
Walk on Air-20 [1]
 
Equipment:
• Crystal Ball, 2” [Robe] $20, 0.3 lb.
• Worn Short Boots [Feet] DR 1*. $0, 3 lbs.
• Tattered Violet Robe [Torso, Arms, Legs] $0, 1.2 lbs.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Part 2

Designer’s Notes

Oswald totally wanders off-template, but that is okay, as I deemed it necessary to build to concept. He is based off the Wizard template with a modified Lich racial template applied. The original Lich template can be found in issue 3/72 of Pyramid, from the article From the Bottom Up. Any conflicts with campaign details (language names, item availability and pricing, etc.) can be altered, as necessary.

The most interesting bit here is what I call Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic). It has all the usual limitations built into the perk, but it is not limited to being used with a single magical style. As a Limitation “One Style Only” is likely roughly equivalent to “One College Only”, a -40% Limitation. With that in mind it is simple enough to simply swap that out for any combination of Limitations that add up to -40%. I have opted for:

- Nuisance Effect, -5%: When the user draws upon the reserve to cast spells, they emit an eerie light from their body. The glowing lasts for the duration of the casting time of the spell. Others will get +5 to rolls made to notice you in the dark!
- Nuisance Effect, -20%: -3 to reactions. The eerie light is readily identifiable by anyone as capital E Evil, regardless of whether they have a ability or spell to detect Evil.
- Required Disadvantage, -15%: Weirdness Magnet. Ominous omens (e.g. murders of crows often flying overhead) and shady entities (e.g. hags wanting you to stop and chat to swap alchemical recipes) are drawn to your wickedness.

EDIT: I've since worked out that the "Cannot Share or Transfer Energy" inherent to Limited Energy Reserve is roughly equivalent to "Abilities Only" for -10%. We add up -40% (from above), -10%, and a -20% for Slow Recharge of 1 point/hour to get -70% total applied to a level of Energy Reserve, giving us that [1] per level.

Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) can be acquired at character creation with spent points, or during play by performing ritualistic acts of Evil conducted using ritual trappings with a total value of $500 or more (fancy candles, the best chalk, a virgin sacrifice… etc.). New trappings must be purchased for each ritual conducted. Upon conducting the ritual that character’s player may then spend a single Character Point to give that character an additional level of Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic). Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) may be purchased ignoring the usual limit of 1 magical Perk per 20 points invested in spells. Characters with at least one level of this trait will be detectable as Evil by other characters with the means to do so.
 
Part of the reason why I wanted Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) was that I needed a cheap alternative to the more expensive regular Energy Reserve. Why I needed a cheaper alternative? Liches as a PC race as written have ordinary FP, meaning after any fatiguing activity the lich might need to stop and rest as if to catch his breath! I find this comical and maybe that was the author’s intent. I, however, do not envision liches like that. Tirelessness in my opinion is a feature of being undead, especially for skeletal undead (some vampires might be the exception). Undead without FP cannot cast spells unless they have an Energy Reserve… at 3 points per point of reserve though, it seemed prohibitively expensive for a wizard at char gen who starts with FP N/A. I liked Limited Energy Reserve but being limited to a single magical style was not cutting it. So, as made evident by the above, I went under the hood and made some arguably balanced changes to it. Since I cooked this up, I suppose I would have to persuade the GM to let me get away with this munchkinism. IMHO (although likely biased) this Perk seems balanced enough on paper. I would be inclined to even argue that even though this adds up to -40%, the Limitations are more detrimental than only being limited to using the reserve to only cast spells of a single magical style.

If Magery is to be acquired in play with this -80% Limitation, it should probably have some cost to acquire it beyond Character Points if it is improved during play. I think the model I have provided for LER (BM) is good, so the process for getting more levels of this kind of Magery will be the same as that except it will be $1000 or more of ritual trappings used per level of Magery the character wants. Also like LER (BM), as a feature of having at least Magery 1 with this Limitation the character will be detectable as Evil by those with the means to do so.

Please see this post for the under the hood details for why that -80% on Magery really is -80%.

Why the monetary cost for acquiring Magery (Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) Only) and LER (BM) in play? It is not required by RAW, but the third DF supplement, The Next Level, suggests that traits that can be acquired in play may having training expenses, with a list of suggested prices according to the type of point expenditure. Those numbers do not line up with 1 point = $500, but I used that conversion rate rather than what The Next Level suggests instead. The GM might be free to price it as they see fit for their own taste in game balance but this is just what I am suggesting might be balanced enough.

An ordinary, unenchanted crystal ball (2”) costs $1000 as written. In comparison a hand mirror costs only $15 in DF; for other kinds of divination, Ouija board costs just $40 (GURPS Horror, but the cost seems on par with other offerings), and a Tarot deck costs $50 (From the DF Treasure Tables supplement. I am assuming this overrides the GURPS Magic cost for the item at $1000). To me it seems as if the crystal ball is arbitrarily more expensive. A Google search shows me that a crystal ball of that size can be as cheap as $20. If other divination items cost so very cheap in DF, it is safe to assume that production of the items is on par with modern TLs (likely sold in bulk bargain bins at Ye Olde Magic Shoppe). Since there is already a precedent in DF to have divination items at low costs, I am going to say that it is only fair that crystal balls be cheap too. $15 for a hand mirror that doesn't need enchantment and lets you use Crystal-Gazing at no penalty(if you want more elaboration on this, see later posts on the matter) dictates that we ought to have a $20 2" crystal ball that requires no enchantment as well.

I think it might be useful to cover the notable exclusions from the skills for the Wizard template. Hidden Lore specialties seem like they would be either essential or quite niche-case in usefulness. Essential if the GM decides to inform the player in Session Zero that specialties would be relevant in the campaign. Otherwise, the character ought to default to using Magic Items/Magical Writings specialties for being the most generically useful. Of the two of those, I would prioritize Magical Writings. I cannot imagine a GM throwing a lot of “legendary” magical items at PCs, but reading ancient magical tomes seems like standard fare for Wizards. Its usefulness is still likely niche-case though and it probably is not worth investing more than a single point in.
 
I have left off any melee skills. Maybe that is foolish, or maybe it is a wiser investment to put those points into more spells? Fragile (Brittle) and Vulnerability (Crushing x2) makes melee combat more dangerous to risk getting into and incentivizes simply staying out of it. Wizards are not front-line fighters, and this only compounds the issue. Wizards in DF do not function as well as damage dealers as they perform as magical swiss army knives. A blocking spell for melee attacks, spells to protect against missile fire, and a ranged missile spell should hopefully suffice for combat. I specifically envision Oswald staying out of the heat of combat, utilizing his magic from the sidelines and barking out tactical advise using his suite of commandeering skills. Run like a chicken when the gobbos come chasing with their clubs.

Intuitive Cantrip (Aid) might seem against the spirit of DF for a Wizard to have. Technically it is a Perk with a “spell-like effect”, not a spell. It is, however, associated with the Healing college. The semantics could be argued but the effect of the Perk seems very inoffensive and roughly inline with what DF expects of Wizards in terms of healing.

As I have been writing my design notes, one important question has come up. If RAW DF Wizard PCs cannot learn enchantment spells (which includes the Lich spell), how does a Lich PC exist to begin with? From the Bottom Up neglects to mention anything regarding this as far as I know. Shouldn’t the Lich’s character sheet reflect point investments reflecting having what was needed to attain lichdom? Seems unfair to make the player spend points on their character that serve no purpose past character creation though. I would not even think an Unusual Background should be required. However, the absence of it on the sheet ought to be explained in the background of the character. I am in favor of saying Oswald had the recipe for the elixir of lichdom, the Lich spell, and its prerequisites wiped from his memory. Oswald would rather not face competition from new liches, and rather than leave the secrets vulnerable to being pried from his mind with magic or interrogation, he used a Scroll of Great Wish to erase them from his memory permanently.

The equipment loadout is practically non-existent, but the neat gimmicks of being undead largely renders a lot of it moot; no need for rations for food or camping gear to protect from the worst of the elements. *shrugs*

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

All Dungeon Fantasy archetypes have combat skills, including Wizards and Scholars - I think the lowest melee weapon skill for any Template is around 14? Obviously your PC, your choice but thematically any "official" DF Lich PC Template would have Staff or something similar.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Oh, I figured this would be the most offensive thing to those who'd prefer more optimized characters, hence the bit I wrote in my Designer's Notes. I'm less interested in min-maxing and more interested in creating specialized, colorful characters that create intriguing roleplaying opportunities.

He's loosely inspired by saturday morning cartoon villains that peer into a screen, reflecting pool, or crystal ball to gaze upon the heroes and cackle as they monologue the fiendish scheme of the week... and just as the heroes thwart his plans, he gives a quick shrill screaming speech about if only they hadn't meddled with his plans he would've gotten away with it this time. Then picks up the hems of his robes and makes his timely escape! Or something like that. Oswald would rather not get his hands dirty and have his companions (or perhaps minions) do all the backbreaking work.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

The high cost of an unenchanted crystal ball in-setting might be due to the fact that glass was harder to make, and thus more expensive, in medieval Europe.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Well made crystal glass vials go for just a mere $5 according to the DF's Adventurers book. A quality glass bottle at that cheap of price seems to suggest that DF's "implied vaguely defined kitchen-sink fantasy setting" is capable of producing such glass items very, very cheaply. The aforementioned hand mirror seems absurdly cheap for a faux-medieval setting, and by RAW it allows Crystal-Gazing at no penalty to skill without need of enchantment. So I interpreted what appears to be in need of errata as an oversight of the authors. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

If I was the GM I'd say "By the Realm of the Dead and all the Hells, no!"

That buying Energy Reserve needs to be justified in-game is not a limitation on the power at all, much less a -67% one. If the ritual is for recharge then I'd buy it.

The limitations on Magery are also suspect. 1) Splashy for 5% is OK. 2) Between Horrific and SS Dead hardly anyone will care that its magic is also obviously Evil. Besides, a reputation hit doesn't affect the use of the power and, rather than scale with it, should be a separate Unnatural Features disadvantage. 3) The character always has Weirdness Magnet so requiring it in no way limits the power. This just makes a [-15] disadvantage into a [-25] one without in any way changing the effects.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

You're not exactly just buying it. You pay for an amount of ritual trappings... then you must perform the ritualistic act of Evil. No skill roll required for the preparations, but it does need to be convincing enough to sway the forces of Evil to imbue you with its darkness. With the example items given, Oswald would need to organize a time and place in which he would be able to perform such a ritual. Draw magical circle with the expensive chalk, light the fancy candles, and make sure that virgin sacrifice isn't going anywhere. Maybe Oswald recites some convincingly Evil chanting, then drives a sharp object into the victim to kill them. The other characters more likely then not will also have to take the time to aid in this endeavor, unless Oswald pays hirelings to do his bidding. That's a lot of work.

Limited Energy Reserve, not my variant listed here, is from the Magical Styles book. I simply swapped the "One Style Only" part that's baked into the trait and swapped it with a equivalent amount of Limitations. That still leaves all the other limiting factors already baked into Limited Energy Reserve, so it's fine in that regard. If he somehow disguised himself (and perhaps also with something to hide his aura) so he could sneak into Town, he'd likely not want to risk exposing himself by publicly casting magic. Regular Wizards have the privilege of utilizing their magic in wholesome society as they please, but a Evil Wizard (lich or not) has to be secretive.

Weirdness Magnet is warranted because without it you invalidate the LER (BM). If you buy it off, or it is otherwise removed for in game reasons, you no longer get the privilege of using your edgy ER. Maybe Oswald pisses off the wrong deity and they (literally?) smack the magnetic-ness straight outta him, or mess with his inherent aura that causes the omens around him and shady people to now ignore him rather than be drawn to him.

The limitation on Magery is to limit its usage to only the LER (BM). So no spending any FP (not that that matters), no burning HP, no Power Item energy, no gifted energy, etc. He has to power his magic purely with evil energy.

Some of what you say either doesn't make sense or is difficult to parse, so I hope my responses are properly informed. I would've included these details in the Designer's Notes but they had to be cut because SJG forum's post size limit. I figured it was obvious stuff but apparently not.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

It might help if I lay things out in a simpler way besides fat blocks of wordy text.

Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) consists of the following:

• The Limited Energy Reserve magic perk, from GURPS Thaumatology: Magical Styles, pg. 27
• The inherent "One Style Only" aspect of the Perk was substituted by a combined amount of -40% in Limitations, as previously detailed in this thread
• The remaining inherent limiting factors of the original Perk amount to: being unable to share or transfer this energy. Which makes it worthless for powering magical items, ceromonial magic, or otherwise gifting the energy

Hopefully this is more transparent and less opaque with the details. The trait was already inherently balanced in regards to point balance but I used my judgement to say that if you want to buy it in play, you need to cough up your time, money, and sacrifice your morals to get it. Still totally fine to buy it in char gen with just points. Same deal for the Magery.

I think I explained why the -80% on Magery makes sense pretty well already, but I'll restate it just in case. He literally can only use his LER (BM) to power his spells, nothing else. A regular Wizard has his FP to spend, HP to burn, his Power Item to use, any gifted energy... Oswald isn't working with any of that. -80% seems perfectly reasonable.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Thankfully no one has scrutinized the prerequisite chains of my spell selection yet, so for the sake of continued transparency Kromm's Wizardry Refined Pyramid article from issue 3/60 was utilized for this character. For those not savvy to the details of the article, it basically goes into better detail as to how Wizards ought to be balanced in DF mostly by restructuring spell prerequisite chains and effectively errata'ing some spell effects that would be particularly offensive in DF.

One hard lesson with posting content to the forum is that I need to be very, very meticulous with my notetaking. No detail is too obvious or trivial to omit. I just don't want my experience on the forum to be a exercise in writing highly comprehensive legalese though... but that's part of the nature of GURPS I suppose. Too bad! I can't expect people to just read my mind, but I don't want to talk down to people as if they don't know any better, or come off as a know-it-all jerk. Some deep meta commentary there.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

"Crystal ball" didn't mean crystal glass (at least, not always), it meant literal clear quartz crystal (also known as rock crystal). That may be the type DF was thinking of. (The large ones used by stage fortune-tellers or sold to tourists usually are glass, but they're said to be "not as good".) Small pieces of rock crystal are cheap as chips, but I get the impression that the price goes up steeply for larger pieces if you need them to still be free from significant flaws - the largest truly flawless crystal ball in the world is only 32cm across.

Prices appear to have less to do with any predictable "market value" and more to do with what's available and how much cheek the seller has, which would probably be true in DF's world too. A quick search turned up 4cm rock crystal spheres for £35 each (fairly clear, though not flawless), a badly flawed 6cm sphere (more like fairly clear ice than glass) for £155, 3cm faceted spheres (slightly less flawed) for £8, 3cm faceted eggs (very clear) for £68 for a pack of 32 as a "one-time clearance offer", a 3cm sphere described as "B grade. Good value but not 'clear'" for £10, and a 15cm crystal skull for £496!
So GURPS$2000 makes sense if it actually means a big crystal ball of the kind fortune-tellers are usually shown with, and (unlike most fortune-tellers') made of real crystal. Such a thing would be very rare - historically, big ones like that were often among the treasures of royalty. Interesting subject.

Little crystal balls do seem to have been used quite a lot historically. There are a lot in Scotland (often heirlooms of some aristocratic family or other), and John Dee had one about 5cm across which it's recorded that he did use for scrying among other things.
That would certainly be a lot more affordable and easier to find than the six-inch ones of cartoons and seaside sideshows, and also more convenient for an adventurer to carry about - but, on the other hand, nothing like as good for posing sinisterly with.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

This is where I got the "unenchanted hand mirror for Crystal-Gazing at no penalty" idea from. The Crystal-Gazing enchantment is unambiguous in the fact it can only enchant whatever might be defined as a "crystal ball", which may or may not include faux ones just made out of glass and not genuine clear quartz crystal (GM's discretion here I suppose). The above quote, if interpreted literally, would mean the cheap but somehow good quality hand mirror you can pick up for $15 with no enchantment would let you perform divination at no penalty to skill. It would only be fair then to say, contrary to the Crystal-Gazing enchantment's rules as written, that the 2" ball would let you perform your divination at no penalty with no enchantment as well. This still leaves the price issue though, at $1000, which makes little sense if you could just buy a hand mirror at a far lower price. The $20 seems like just about right. This also makes it no more or less expensive than the other divination spells that require cheap occult divination tools, like the Ouija board or the Tarot deck.

The cheap crystal ball may or may not be realistic for DF's level of realism, but when 250 characters are arguably operating at a cinematic level of realism (I'm looking at you, Heroic Archer trait on the Scout template. Unashamed Peter Jackson's LOTR/The Hobbit-esque action!), a lot of those realistic assumptions could probably be hand waived.

That's sound enough logical reasoning I think. It certainly is a neat discussion point, and was definitely something I wanted to discuss. :)

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Yes, DF does seem to do what it likes with realism! Depends what works best!

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Hmm, yeah. The discrepancies make my brain itchy though. Realized it does say "flawless crystal" in the description for Crystal-Gazing enchantment, so no faux-ball. Bah! I still say for the sake of cohesive mechanics my prior reasoning still stands. I know setting assumptions do matter but my inner game-design cruncher wants the crunch to make sense so the fluff can make sense. What's so special about mirrors that makes them better than a crystal ball? Mirror so good it doesn't need enchantment, ball needs enchantment. Harrumph! It flies in the face of the trope of the crystal ball being the choice item for crystal-gazing... it's what the spell is named after!

*incomprehensible grumbling*

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Just some brainstorming for some alternative fixes to Crystal-Gazing.

1) A simple solution is to simply house-rule that mirrors are not an option for use with Crystal-Gazing.

2) Work out a alternative spell description for the Crystal-Gazing enchantment to accommodate the enchantment of mirrors. This would also necessitate stat'ing up a series of special divination mirrors suited for the enchantment that follow the price scheme for the crystal balls, so as to leave the mundane mirrors (like the hand mirror) as affordable adventuring gear.

3) Write up a separate "Mirror-Gazing" enchantment compatible with the Crystal-Gazing divination spell. Still would need those special-made mirrors statted for the previous option.

Option 1 requires the least amount of homebrewing, and I'd probably prefer that. Me being me though I like the solution I've already arrived at with just dropping the need for enchantment for the no penalty benefit for the 2" crystal ball, and dropping its pricing to roughly be competitive with the hand mirror. It leaves the fluff intact, as mirrors thematically make sense for Crystal-Gazing. It also means I won't have to do the point-shuffle dance to figure out how to reallocate points for Signature Gear.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

An alternative, flavorful option would be to limit divination via mirror to view things from other reflective surfaces (perhaps limited further to mirrors using the same metal - IIRC, typically silver for TL Ye Olden Tymes). Note I don't use (or even have) GURPS Magic, so I'm assuming Crystal-Gazing functions like the Clairsentience Advantage (displacing - or perhaps duplicating - your senses elsewhere), possibly with a time-travel component (for viewing future/past events), and am suggesting using a crystal ball lets you basically place your senses anywhere/anywhen (within the limits of the spell) while using a mirror only lets you view a time and place where a reflective surface is present, and only view it from said reflective surface. If crystal balls work for more senses than just sight, a magic mirror should probably be limited to sight-only.

Cheaper crystal balls also work, of course. And note, given each [1] in Signature Gear gives $500 worth of stuff, you could simply halve the canonical cost of a crystal ball (to $500) rather than dividing by 50 (for $20) and still be able to afford it with a single point.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

GURPS Magic gives us the following for the Crystal-Gazing specialty of Divination:

As well as this for Divination specialties in general:

It's largely loosely defined, and GURPS Magic mostly leaves it at the GM's whim as to how informative or how the players are supposed to be able to interpret what their attempts at divination provides. Crystal-Gazing just gives you a vision displayed in the crystal ball or mirror (it seems that they want it to be inferred that it's a literal man-made mirror needing to be used, not just any reflective surface, but I guess that's another GM discretion thing).

See, I love the concept of Spells-as-Skills, and for the most part GURPS Magic succeeds at that. It's also the default magic system that DF utilizes, which I also really like. However, GURPS Magic contains a lot of legacy material ported over from older editions that in many ways doesn't live up to GURPS's bigger picture of 4E-isms and sensibilities. The Divination spells are pretty much fine as is, but Crystal-Gazing in particular appears to suffer from rules crunch negligence. As written there's no reason why any adventurer in their right mind would want to waste money on a very expensive crystal ball... that needs a enchantment to function with the Crystal-Gazing specialty of Divination, with more dedicated enchantment providing a bonus to skill. DF characters, including Wizards, are thematically within genre real penny pinchers when it comes to their equipment load outs. The smart adventurer (and player) is going to buy that dirt cheap hand mirror and just invest points into their Crystal-Gazing if they want more skill with it.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Here's more of the content cut from the Designer's Notes!

An astute observer might notice that Oswald is lacking the -25 point Dependency on Mana, which is typically used to model the nature of mana dependent creatures or races (like the Faerie Folk) or undead whos immortality hinges on the magic that made them so, like liches.

DF's Power-Ups supplement provides Faerie Folk the Inner Light trait to gradually or entirely buy off their Dependency on Mana. Following that logic, it would be sensible to allow a Lich to have the same with the serial numbers filed off, "Inner Darkness".

It's totally thematically appropriate for Liches to take whatever measures to ensure their continued immortality, and Oswald has done so during his time as a lich.

Some meta-balance commentary...while I acknowledge that No Mana Zones are a totally valid means of hosing Wizards, my inner pouty player says it'd be more responsible of the GM to gatekeep spell selection at char gen and then only permit the more problematic spells (that would warrant the No Mana Zone) as they see fit. I know such zones are there for world building reasons, but its also a meta countermeasure against magic gone wild. Curb the spells, I say, then implement No Mana Zones if at all after that!

Oswald has a good spell selection, some picks more munchkinny than others. Umbrella might help keep any books or scrolls dry while adventuring, and its also the kind of quirky spell I'd see a eccentric lich like Oswald would want to know. I think characterization is important in spell selection as much as practicality. While he has some very good spells, it's definitely not nearly as abusive as it could be right out of the gate... I purposely avoided spells like Great Haste (the kind of spell I'd advise the GM to gatekeep Wizards from having right away).

Even without the Dependency, there does need to be some other alternative to curbing magic... enter Weirdness Magnet. Evil is selfish, and self-serving, and even the Evil Wizards who'd seek to appease the forces of Evil to use its power to their benefit are just tools in the grander schemes of Evil. More Evil Wizards means more Weirdness Magnets, which means more potential for a critical massing of Evil drawn together. If for in game reasons a Evil Wizard loses their Weirdness Magnet, they lose access to that yummy naughty ER that Evil has within them... they're no longer unwitting tools to further amass more Evil.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

I wouldn't allow those.

The "one style only" perk ER is costed assuming you respect the magic perk purchase restrictions !
If you waive this, you no longer qualify for the discounted price, imho.

So, ER(Black Magic, -40%; abilities only, -10%) [1.5/point] instead.

As for Magery, Can’t Use External Energy is -15% per Thaumathology p23, not -80%.
Not being able to burn hp is perhaps worth an additional -5% to -10%.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

From a fluff point, its valid for Evil to care less how skilled you are at magic, it just wants someone who'd be incentivized by deeper energy stores to commit more acts of great evil. LER (BM) is balanced around the substituted -40% that's in it, in place of One Style Only. It might be -40% in limitations, but the implications ripple out in a way that goes beyond just what being limited to a single magical style entails.

There's the fact that Paut is something you can likely buy at any Ye Olde Magic Shoppe in Town, a guaranteed Power Item (Wizards get this right at character creation!) you can have right from the start that you can top off any time you stop at Town... external sources for energy are highly ubiquitous to DF. The rules for Can't Use External Energy accommodate these kinds of considerations when it comes to increasing the value of the modifier. You're argument against the -80% on Magery would make more sense if it took into consideration the genre assumptions of DF.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

I'd also say that the 1 to 20 ratio doesn't make sense, at least in the context of valuing the ER.

Is Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) 24 actually needing to be worth [504]? I highly doubt that.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Really, not having the option of a Power Item really makes that -80% really worth -80%. Wizards have the option of starting the game with a Power Item, and may in play at get a Power Item of greater value that may store an even higher amount of energy. They just have to cough up the cash.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

I have no idea what you are saying here.

I said that instead of pricing your ER at [1] by level, I would estimate a cost of [1.5].
So, Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) 24 [36]

I never suggested [504] ?

Edit : ok, I understand. You are speaking of the limitation on perk number.
I see your point, but I just mean that limitation was likely a further -10% or -20% to the cost of ER, I never suggested anything else.

But I didn't accounted for Paut in a DF setting, so perhaps a little less is justified.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

No paut is a limitation on ER, not on magery.

Your game, your rules, but I cannot see how being denied access to an energy item would be worth -65% of the cost of magery.

Especially since you can leverage this -80% cost of magery to get higher skill level in spells cheaply so you can cast many of them for [0], negating the limitation in the first place ...

I would enforce the thaumatology costing myself, but YMMV.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Also take note of the Power Item, pg. 28 of DF's Adventurers. High cost treasure is really likely in DF (is that not large reason to go dungeon delving?), and all they have to do is take the item to town to upgrade and pay the expenses for imbuing it with the energy.

I arrived at [504] because requiring 20 points in spells can roughly translate to requiring a [20] Unusual Background per point of magic perks. The rule appears less there for balance and more there to give plausible reason for acquiring perks; more magical education, more plausibility of more magic perks.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

It is closer to a pact limitation, you must have X to buy Y.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Says it right there.

Raising skill to mitigate energy costs is baked into the system. I fail to see a problem in what's a intended feature.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

I guess you can say the energy item is on the same category than a large powerstone, if nowhere near industrial mana.

But note the warning about "too large" a limitation.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Well, DF's Power Item rules will inevitably yield Power Items with large energy reserves eventually. Unless the GM wants to actively bottleneck the flow of cash... which might yield the extreme opposite of Monty Hauling, and that's probably not a good idea.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

On energy costs, there's lots of ways that will eventually cost you a lot of energy to get the results you want out of spells... Low Mana Zone, Area Spell costs... pumping energy into Missile Spells... the energy expenses can add up quickly in a game.

Also, my Designer's Notes highly suggest what amounts to "training expenses and then some" (DF even reccomends this as an option for justifying character advancement with points).

Basically, in play:

For LER (BM), pay a minimum of $500 in ritual trappings and conduct a ritualistic act of Evil. E.g. Buy some nice ceromonial candles, some high art chalk, a virgin sacrifice... then, you need to find a time and place where you're not going to get lynched by wholesome society. Probably enlist the aid of your companions for the endeavor, or pay hirelings to help. Do the deed, pay the character point, and tada! The forces of Evil have deemed you worthy of more energy reserve!

Magery with the associated -80% limitation would require the same scheme but a $1000 minimum of ritual trappings.

GM is certainly welcome to adjust these numbers as they please.

Basically, at the superficial surface level, the point costs may seem sus. Oswald is starting with a level of Magery a regular Wizard could vary well start with at char gen, and the energy he has to work with is a lot less than what a Wizard gets from the start. They have that FP, HP to burn, and their starting Power Item, plus Paut they want with starting cash.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Also, we need to take into consideration Oswald's Dead Broke Wealth level. He's going to need to sweet talk the party's designated Mr. Money Bags if he's even going to have the cash on hand to fund his magical serial killing endeavors, since DF's variation on the Wealth traits dictate your ability to sell off loot. Any loot he's going to try and sell... won't have any value, unless he hands it over to Mr. Money Bags to sell for him.

"I don't know, Oswald... I'm just not sure if I'm comfortable with you murdering innocent villagers for the sake of more power!"

You could argue that players will want what's in the best interests for their fellow player's characters, but anecdotally I've certainly played in games where the party can feud over some petty drama. What greater way to get back at someone then to hold their character advancement hostage?

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

While my Designer's Notes says I wrote much of the character up "months ago", it was really more like shortly after the pandemic started I believe. Oswald became a passion project for me to take my mind off the stress of life and its pressures. He's been in development for quite a while, and I really, really like him. So much so my Divinity: Original Sin II character is based on him, and I've taken up penciling, inking, and coloring a picture of him (my skill seems best for emulating that old-school RPG art feel... which I adore!).

I'm thankful for all the replies thus far, it's really made me think real hard about the under the hood bits of what makes Oswald what he is on paper and who he is as a character. Thank you!

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

So, I get that it's in my best interests to balance the character as appropriate. In a way getting a character into a campaign is like making successful use of your own skill at diplomacy. Compromises must be made sometimes.

I'm not likely to drop the -80% on Magery, and for good reason. Wizards, right out of the gate, get a Power Item that they can upgrade/replace for higher value to accumulate a large reserve of energy... all by doing the primary goal of dungeon crawling, that of bashing monster brains in and taking their cool loot which readily provides Wizards with the means of accumulating the value for a high reserve of energy for their Power Item. All without spending a single character point on something you'd normally would be required to pay for in a actual Energy Reserve. In theory that seems way too good, but it is thematically appropriate to the spirit of DF who has ubiquitous cinematic action through things like Heroic Archer and Weapon Master.

Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) may be more deserving of harsher scrutiny however.

I've already identified "One Style Only" as being roughly equivalent to "One College Only", -40%, and have swapped that out for the total of -40% in Limitations as previously detailed in this thread.

Celjabba astutely pointed out that the 1 magic perk to 20 spells cap could be interpreted to roughly translate to a Pact Limitation, -20%.

With that in mind, "Cannot Share or Transfer Energy" might then work out to about -7%.

-40% + -20% + -7% = -67%. Apply that to a regular level of Energy Reserve and you have it valued at [0.99], or rather [1].

As of currently Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) is lacking that additional -20%. Given it is fluffed as "Evil magical energy", I'll have to brainstorm options that'll add up to that -20%.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Magery 6 for [17] looks like a major point crock to me, as does the Energy Reserve you have here.

I'm not really following your rationalization for the limitations you're using, but in any case, Magery 6 is a +6 to every spell on your list - and your spell list doesn't look as though it's limited in any way - and on page 23 of Thaumatology, as has been pointed out, "Can't Use External Energy" is worth only -15%.

If you don't have normal FP, then I would say you should have to buy a version of Unhealing, totally unrelated to Magery. Use those points to buy your energy reserve. I don't think it's legit that Magery should have specialized limitations based on ... a character's wealth level or how he might spend earned CP in the future, or whatever.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

*deep inhale, then a slow exhale*

Okay, let me rehash the previous discussion points made in this thread already.

-80% on Magery restricts its usage to a very limited in functionality form of energy, Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic). Can't Use External Energy limits you to internal energy, which may include HP burning, or alternative forms of Energy Reserve if he were to purchase that instead of LER (BM) during play. It forbids the usage of Paut (I'm certain Paut predates ER, but a contemporary reimagining of it would obviously include magical ER restoration), etcetera. Oswald doesn't have those options, nor will he have those options to acquire in play with points. He also won't have access to the cinematic Power Item rules for DF either, as already noted.

DF assumes high ubiquity of external energy sources. The Ye Olde Magic Shoppe that's likely in any given Town will carry a supply of Paut and healing potions, considering the source material that inspired the DF line. Since DF acknowledges that there's a high amount NPCs in the vaguely implied kitchen-sink setting that are totally built with the templates, there are other Wizards running around likely with their own Power Items of varying value, many them likely of great value and equally high reserves of energy.

With all of those considerations in mind, as noted under Can't Use External Energy permits the modifier to be adjusted according to how ubiquitous external energy sources are. Nothing is more ubiquitous than being able to literally take any form of high value treasure like a fancy scepter or jewel encrusted medallion to Town to the local temple/guild and paying a very small sum of money to store very possibly a large amount of energy in it.

The spell list was made with Kromm's Wizardry Refined in mind, that rebalances spell prerequisite chains and effectively erratas certain spell effects to be more appropriate for DF. I've also intentionally avoided the most obscenely powerful spell combinations available to Wizards in GURPS Magic. I'm willfully gatekeeping the most broken combos from myself, or at least holding them off till the GM permits them to be learned at a later point in whatever campaign Oswald finds himself in.

I think I summarized things well enough.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

So, by this logic, if you added, for example, the ST-Based enhancement to an Innate Attack, that enhancement should be worth less if your character chooses to have a low ST score? Of if you have a limitation "Requires Special Ingredients", then you should increase the value of that limitation if your character is also Dead Broke?

I don't think it should work this way. But if you can get a GM to go for Magery 6 for [17], then more power to you.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

*yet another deep sigh*

Your logic, like previous posters, directly contradicts the RAW. The modifier, -80%, takes into consideration that it's essentially a much further restricted form of Can't Use External Energy as well as taking into consideration of the assumptions that DF makes.

Dead Broke wasn't taken into consideration for this at all. A lich can't just walk into any Town and buy whatever, he needs some sort of practical or illusionary disguise and possibly something to hide his aura as well. It coincidently also hinders his ability to acquire further levels of Magery and/or LER (BM).

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Your game, your rules. But, to me, it doesn't sound much like the game other people are playing.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Frankly, I'm tired of being unfairly patronized. Please refrain from such comments.

As I've previously detailed in, summarized in brief:

In order to acquire LER (BM) or Magery with the associated Limitation in play, the character must acquire ritual trappings (minimum of $500 for LER (BM) and minimum of $1000 for Magery) and conduct a ritualistic act of significant Evil.

For example of acquiring an additional level of LER (BM), Oswald has somehow obtained some black market unholy ceremonial candles, expensive high art chalk, and bought a virgin sacrifice from some orc slavers that he'll drive a glimmering crimson dagger into. He's organized a time and place to perform the heinous ritual, and has either enlisted the help of his adventuring companions to conduct it or has hired some willing hirelings to assist. He draws the unholy magic circle, lights the ceremonial candles, and has had assistance in tying down the victim within the confines of the circle. He chants some convincing Evil words of power, then drives the blade into the sacrifice killing them. A character point is then spent to raise the level of LER (BM). There's a emphasis on the nuance of the roleplaying on this (it must appease the forces of Evil), and each batch of supplies is unique to each ritualistic act of Evil, so no reusing old ritual trappings. Magery with the associated modifier follows the same scheme.

This essentially is a refluffed interpretation of the training expenses rules detailed in the third DF supplement.

I'll also once again restate that his Magery is capped at a level a regular Wizard can rightfully acquire during character generation before even consulting the Power-Ups supplement, and he also is not working with the same quality or amount of energy a regular Wizard starts with.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Traits are not priced on how difficult it would be to get higher levels. The traits you do have are not priced according to the traits you don't have. For example, you don't get a discount on the DX if there's a racial limit on DX. And I don't think traits should be discounted because you have a higher training expense or whatever than someone else. That sounds like a feature to me.

From Basic 261:

"A 'taboo trait' is an attribute level, advantage, disadvantage, or skill that is off-limits to members of the race. This, too, is worth 0 points. Normally, only mundane traits are labeled 'taboo,' as exotic or supernatural traits require the GM’s permission in any case."

I'm sorry if you feel patronized, so I'll let it go with that.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

I never said it was a Taboo Trait. He simply purchased a level of Magery acceptable for a 250 point Wizard at char gen.

These are just "training expenses" as per the optional rules for spending character points for advancement, and were not taken into consideration for the pricing of these traits.

Thank you.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

My inclination would be to simply state the method of becoming a Lich is a bit different for each person, and they need to do the necessary research themselves - they can't just have someone else brew up a "one size fit all" elixir and drink it. The time that went into the research is reflected simply by having the lich template. He could certainly use Teaching to help someone else gain lichdom, of course (having familiarity with the process helps), just as he could use it to teach them Tactics, HazMat, Lightning, or even Black Magic Magery (provided that's a learnable trait).

I'll note that - from what I understand - DF assumes No Mana Zones will be in play (as will places with Low Sanctity, and so forth), just as GURPS Magic did, and the spell lists were made with that in mind. If you don't include NMZ's, you're going to make mages more powerful than intended - not because of poor curation of available spells, but because the mechanics revolving around those spells assume NMZ's will be present as a balancing factor.

While I'm not thrilled with the way this works in DF, a decent solution here is for Mr Money Bags to charge Oswald, say 10% of whatever he gets out of the items. If Oswald finds a bit of treasure that MMB can sell for $1000, getting $900 for it instead of $0 is a win for Oswald (and a win for MMB, given he just made $100 just for serving as the middle man).

Sounds like somebody is in the wrong party.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

@ Varyon:

The hypothetical quote was actually a reference to this (from the first post). :^P

Nice thoughts on the lichdom! I detailed the steps for acquiring additional levels of his type of Magery in play with my worked example of "training expenses".

The NMZ complaint was just a petty quibble I made. :) I totally expect NMZs to be enforced as they should.

I figure Oswald would be needing to negotiate with the party's designated Mr. Money Bags. Conceptually I don't see a Lich (at least one without a established evil lair and treasure hoard with underworld blackmarket contacts) having the ability to sell off loot at any capacity with how Wealth is modeled in DF.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

This is not addressed to anyone in particular but it is a PSA that needs to be communicated.

I think it needs to be made clear that I DO NOT have malicious intent with these implementation of rules and mechanics. Over the period of the past year or so that I've had this character in development, I've been as meticulous as I can be given my level of comprehension of GURPS and DF. I've spent years studying the material, and came to the progress I've made so far because of that. It is totally in bad taste to try and blindside the GM with malicious munchkinism, and I'm fully in favor of having good ethics in character generation.

Oswald amounts to a glass cannon, except that instead of combat prowess and damage potential he flexes his spell selection suite to the best he can manage. He's going to be highly dependent on the primary front liners for what defensive magic can't cover (hopefully someone takes the Sacrificial Parry perk, or is willing to perform a sacrificial dodge if they can tank hits), since he sacrificed melee competence to double down on magical prowess. DF ([stereo]typically) features a significant amount of combat, and I balanced Oswald with this in mind. His Magery is at a level that can be achieved by a regular Wizard at char gen, his access to energy is not of the same quality or likely amount of a regular Wizard, and his spell selection actively avoids the most brutal combination of spells a starting regular Wizard could have. Although his LER (BM) and Magery with the associated modifier are point balanced (I'm currently working on the details of that additional -20% that is supposed to be within LER (BM)), I've used my best judgement to suggest a highly recommended (and I'll absolutely insist on its usage) reflavoring/reworked version of the training expenses rules specifically for these traits. Oswald is a balanced character, but you must take the bigger picture into account.

I wish to not repeatedly have the more or less same arguments against these traits as has happened three times now already. If it is to be further discussed, please do so in a courteous manner. Thank you.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

The character is obviously the result of many thoughts , both by itself and within the game world.
And it is certainly an interesting concept.
I approve on general principles.

It doesn't exactly follow the rules but if it work for your game, all is well. I certainly allowed things at my table many forum members would disagree with.

That said, if it was brought to my table with me as GM :

- the sig gear crystal ball normal price of 1000$ is not a problem. It cannot be abused, it fit the character, and for all we know he got a good deal on it. No problem there.

- the ER is a bit cheap as described but not overly so. 1.5 1.2 or 1 per level ... I could be convinced. Be ready for Weirdness Magnet to be brought up often however, with such a "trigger" in-story !

- the magery pricing, I would refuse, as I explained above. Full stop. I could see -25% given your justification, perhaps -30%. Definitely not -80%.
We shall have to disagree on that, I think.

- the lack of weapon skills is understandable and logical but run against DF expectations.... a dilemma there. Perhaps a winged knive ? Either the spell and a nice blade (a sacrificial knife would be fitting) or an actual enchanted item, but it would be expensive.

- as it is, it makes a good antagonist but lack a motivation to be part of an adventuring party - beyond gathering money and resources to improve itself ... which is justification enough in DF but I feel it lack something to bind someone with those disadvantages to an adventuring group.

Have fun !

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Thanks, I appreciate your reply.

The $20 unenchanted crystal ball that allows Crystal-Gazing at no penalty is at its price to remain competitive with the $15 hand mirror that cannot be enchanted but provides Crystal-Gazing at no penalty according to the RAW. I've previously detailed potential workable alternatives in a previous post (as written, the Crystal-Gazing divination spell as well as the associated enchantment suffer from major rules crunch negligence) but this solution appears to be as good as any other more or less. A perk to cover basic equipment for a skill is a established idea already in GURPS.

The ER, as previously mentioned, is essentially going to be divorced entirely from the magic perk it originated from by replacing the inherent -20% "Pact" limitation baked into it because of the 1 to 20 magic perk to spells cap. I'm in the process of ironing out the precise details of that additional -20%. See a recent prior post for more context.

The -80% fully takes into consideration the RAW assumptions that DF makes, as well as the fact it is a far more limiting form of Cannot Use External Energy. I will make it imperative to communicate with the GM during Session Zero so that our expectations of RAW DF assumptions are on the same page. It has been previously discussed before by multiple people on this forum that within their gaming groups that players and GMs collaborate on world building decisions. This especially makes great sense with DF, with the massive amount of setting and world building assumptions it makes on behalf of the GM to expedite getting the players straight into the thick of dungeon crawling.

I intentionally choose to not entirely front-load all the abilities and skills onto my characters that go off-template and are built to concept, regardless of starting point total. Even 250 point DF characters need future hooks baked into their design to better incentivize further character advancement.

As for motivation, that's entirely campaign dependent IMHO. At the most basic level to be assumed, like any other stereotypical DF character he's in search of the loot and the power. With a more fleshed out campaign premise for context, like what I've detailed at the part of my original post, he could be a part of a mixed morality party that represents the best of the best in the land that has to to work together to stand any chance against the impending doom that is The Unthinkable Eldritch Horrors.

I really appreciate your time and consideration for the discussion at hand. Thank you!

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

As for Disadvantages putting him at odds with the rest of the adventuring party, he has Sense of Duty (Adventuring companions). His more monsterous traits may come in handy... occasionally. RAW says he can very well trigger Fright Checks given the right circumstances, and there's probably going to be the infrequent "Monster Town" where his looks won't look out of place. If someone has the ability to convincingly disguise him, he might be able to venture into more wholesome Towns unnoticed.

EDIT: This of course assumes a mixed morality party, as I've discussed somewhat already. No issue if it's a Suicide Squad-ish game, or it's a full on Evil party game. Individual Evil PCs/Evil Parties/Mixed Morality Parties can be played, the GM just has to be imaginative with the campaign premise. :)

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

I suggest that the next time you get a comment or question that you've already responded to, you just give them a link to the previous post where you responded (or quote the post), possibly with the phrase 'asked and answered.'

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Certainly! That's a good suggestion.

There was some variation with each forumite's responses though that genuinely required individualized attention, as the nature of their arguments against my design choices did differ. Most confusion was clarified by citing the RAW, or through as much civil reasoning and sound logic as I could muster. I'm not trying to be difficult, if anything I'm trying to maintain polite discussion. We're all here to learn from each other.

I guess my frustration arose from what I perceived to be responses that were reactionary and without full consideration of the actual implementation of rules and mechanics under the hood. Some of that was my fault for lack of transparency, and some of that wasn't my fault perhaps because I can't be cognizant of everything all the time necessarily. The good news is that all this feather ruffling has actually produced meaningful insight that I've been able to make use of. I'm not entirely immovable in my stances.

The Power Item rules for DF should not be so easily dismissed though. It's the Wizards hidden gem feature that I'm surprised people haven't taken more notice of. It's at least on par with Weapon Master or Heroic Archer, IMHO. You really need to be aware of the full implications of it. Really puts the quadratic Wizard in quadratic Wizard. Mo' money, mo' power, and isn't the biggest incentive for dungeon delvers that sweet cash?

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Really, I think I need to put it into perspective just how impactful the Power Item, something the Wizard is guaranteed to have at char gen with just some starting cash invested into acquiring it. It's the best investment you'll ever make.

The more cash value of the item, the better. The more you delve, the better the items you can use as a Power Item or gems or whatever to add to the value of the Power Item you already have, and the more cash you have on hand to maintain the energy in it. For a paltry amount of cash, you can refill it.

Delving = More shiny loot and cash = More power = More delving = More shiny loot and cash...

So, perhaps more so than any other delver, Wizards can attain more power by doing what a delver is already supposed to be good at, all without spending a single character point.

Sure, the GM can have it destroyed, lost, or stolen, but the Wizard just snatches up the next most valuable shiny loot and turns it into a Power Item. Okay, so that's not a long lasting solution, why not bottleneck the flow of cash and loot to prevent the inevitably large reserve of energy in a highly valuable Power Item? Great, now you've achieved the extreme opposite of a Monty Haul and not only are you hosing the Wizard you're punishing the whole party along with them.

It's something that reaches critical mass the more you do exactly what you're expected to do in DF, delve dungeons and bash in monster brains for their cool loot, and has no clear preventative solution to it. Sure, it'll start small, but like a Wizard in DnD who embodies that "Quadratic Wizard, Linear Warrior" meme, it'll have a rapid snowball effect that's coming your way no matter what.

Kromm has stated before (at least I definitely recall this as so) that the true balancing factor in the GURPS Magic system is your access to energy. If I also recall correctly, he's pretty adamant about cash not becoming a solution crock. DF's Power Item rules totally throw all those sensibilities out the window and go full ham with the gonzo, with Wizards coming out top above all other 'caster professional templates in terms of making the most of it with their largely superior spell selection.

Among all other forms of energy that he doesn't get to use since he only gets to utilize his own harshly gimped Energy Reserve, the Power Item is the most exploitative in my eyes.

That was some nice commentary. Well, back to brainstorming that last bit of -20% for the LER (BM) I've been working on.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

My insomnia just might keep me up another night in a row, so I hope I'm making sense. x_x In the mean time, here's more (hopefully coherent) analysis for the implementation of DF's Power Item rules.

Maybe I value it too highly, but the Power Item seems to be of utmost value in the dungeon in circumstances where you'd most benefit from going past what your own stores of energy allows and going to the point you'd need to dip into that Power Item energy for the most bang needed. Like up until what you figure is the "boss fight" you've been functioning on your inherent energy (that you've kept up with periodic resting) but effectively double it or more for the last showdown of the dungeon by using your Power Item that you've cultivated to that value. A Wizard who's smart with his money and fortuitous in his acquiring of good loot could have that impressive Power Item sooner than later. Its not just good for boss fights, but fantastic when you need a lot of energy and you need it NOW. Then once you hit up Town afterwards you pay up what likely amounts to about a weeks worth of lunch money (haha...) to recharge your Power Item for the next delve... repeat roughly optimal Power Item usage again for that dungeon, etc.

It's just so good to have, and so readily available for the regular Wizard. Oswald is missing out on some good stuff... maybe I'm wrongly conflating the value of this with Weapon Master and Heroic Archer but it really feels like a Wizard gets so much value out of DF's Power Item rules, and they don't even have to pay up the points for it all unlike those other cinematic traits. Energy matters a lot for a Wizard.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Well, we sort of reversed engineered the 1 magic perk to 20 points in spells cap into a -20% "Pact" Limitation. Alternatively, I interpreted a magic perk effectively requiring a [20] Unusual Background (more magical education, more plausibility for having picked up the little tricks of the trade).

The problem though is that if that's a Pact Limitation, it doesn't make sense because we're implying that having traits of positive value is reason for another positive value trait to be more limited because of that. Ergo you don't take one trait and apply a Pact requiring a Advantage, because it's not a meaningful Limitation then.

I vaguely recall there being published Unusual Background that have game mechanical benefits attached, but I can't recall the material that was from. Might've been some Christopher Rice work? Hmm. Anyways, 20 points in spells per magic perk is essentially saying that each magic perk is arguably worth 21 points. That's a 2,000% increase in value (!!!).

I thought this was some good analysis to keep in mind. It might mean that the 1 to 20 cap is not meaningful game balance, or is grossly and/or wrongfully overcompensating for the magic perks.

What I'm trying to say is that LER (BM) definitely needs that additional -20%, but not really because of needing to be switched from the -20% for the 1 to 20 cap because that's possibly not sound design to begin with.

Back to considering what that -20% ought to be! I've been flipping through the Powers book and haven't thought up something flavorfully appropriate yet, but I'm sure I will.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

I thought this would be relevant to quote here, as this is more or less a record of my continuing thoughts on Oswald's character design (as well as a sounding board through discussion of course). It's also a lot of what I feel about character design in general.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Well, while I did eyeball "Cannot Share or Transfer Energy" as a -7% (I imagine this would be irksome to those with pentaphilia) for reasons I've detailed previously, it appears to more or less actually resemble "Abilities Only" for -10% as seen on pg. 119 of Powers. So "Cannot Share or Transfer Energy" ought to be -10% instead. Trivial change for LER (BM) but I thought I'd at least take note of it.

For that missing -20% on Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic), I've opted for Slow Recharge, 1 point/hour, also on pg. 119 of Powers. The Recover Energy spell will allow him to recover his LER (BM) at a rate of 1 point every 12 minutes.

So, I decided to take another look at the -80% modifier on Magery.

If we could, hypothetically, require a Unusual Background (Power Item) for access to Power Items? I would eyeball it at [35], more or less smack dab between other cinematic traits Heroic Archer and Weapon Master. We can then flip that to a Disadvantage, No Unusual Background (Power Item) [-35]. Derive a "Pact" (or rather "Required Disadvantage") Limitation from this and we have -35%. "Cannot Use External Energy" starts us at -15%, but I would add the -35% ("Cannot Use External Energy" notes that the value can be adjusted according to the meaningfulness of that kind of external energy access) to that as we've determined the value of lacking Power Item access. So that gives us -50%. If "Cannot Use External Energy" limits you to only ER, FP, and HP and no external sources, restricting it to ER sounds like it would tack on another -20%... but it isn't just ER, it is LER (BM). So -30% seems more like it. So we add that all up... and we arrive at -80%.

So, yes, it seems as if -80% is more or less right on the mark. Neat-o!

EDIT: Looking at the Power Items table, the highest store of energy listed on it is 40 (one might assume it could go higher...). If you were to more or less stat that up as a Energy Reserve with the appropriate Gadget modifiers and a form of Special Recharge, we'd get something like [40]. So my eyeballed -35% was pretty close enough.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Remember that -80% on Magery is, for exemple, "one spell only" !

I still think you overestimate the value of accessing Power items ...
You said it is an UB worth 35 cp, I feel it is more like an Extra Option perk.

Another way to look at it :

"Cannot Use External Energy to cast spells" cannot be more than -60% (total spell incompetence : cannot learn or cast spells at all)

So,
"Cannot Use External Energy if the campaign makes heavy use of external energy sources, and also cannot use fp or hp" is somewhere between -15% and -60%.

And it cannot be -60%, since you can still cast 0-cost spells and use ER.

Assuming as a thought experiment an equal split of those 60% by energy sources, you would have **
15% : can cast 0-cost spells
15% : can cast spells with fp (and hp)
15% : can cast spells with ER
15% : can cast spells with External sources

And you are looking at -30% on Magery for your limitation.

Now, in DF, perhaps you have instead
10% : can cast 0-cost spells
10% : can cast spells with fp and hp
10% : can cast spells with ER
30% : can cast spells with External sources including Power item

And you are looking at -40% on Magery for your limitation.

But not -80%, however you want to cut it.

**:ignoring the "cannot learn aspect" of total incompetence for simplicity.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Remember, GMs typically have positive bias towards the survival of PCs. You could be a more adversarial-style GM and keep orchestrating circumstances where the Power Item gets knocked into a bottomless pit or whatever, but at some point your players are going to grow suspicious of your ethics and call foul. If you're going to permit cinematic rules, like DF's Power Items, you should let the players have fun with it. Alternatively, like I mentioned before, the alternative is to force a party wide extreme opposite of a Monty Haul to keep Power Items from growing too fast. If not for the Power Item rules, the player ought to be paying a handsome lump of points for it with a Energy Reserve with Gadget Limitations and a appropriate Special Recharge Limitation... or perhaps equally valued Unusual Background. Either way, the Power Item rules force the GM to be a jerk to keep it balanced.

Magery is already a highly extreme point crock to begin with. If we priced it as a Talent, that'd have to be 15 points per level of Magery. If we enforce smooth Talent costing (as many think it is more sound game design) as per the Talents book, you have a single level of Magery costing hundreds of points.

In the grand scheme of things, 2 point Magery (... which have aggressively balanced "training expenses" rules being enforced if it is to be improved in play) is not really breaking game balance more than RAW Magery already is.

I will consider the -40% at least, and see about working out a additional -40% to make it -80%. Although I'm inclined to think it still ought to be -80%, but I am not immovable in my stances as I've said before.

Since he exclusively only uses LER (BM) to power his spells, that also means:

• Casting spells while in stealth might as well effectively be off limits. He doesn't just glow, he glows.
• Even if a adventuring companion helps him with a convincing disguise (and perhaps something to hide his aura to evade magical means of detection), he can't risk exposing himself to wholesome society by openly casting magic. Sure, some of the most vital magic happens in the dungeon but one might assume a massive portion of the game still happens outside of those dungeons.
• ... and really any other far reaching, rippling out implications of using Evil magical energy you could infer from this really.

Thanks for chiming in Celjabba. I really appreciate having people to bounce ideas with. :)

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Hmm, about 0 energy cost spells. Sure, there's some of that at play. He only gets a 2 energy discount on spells at this point, and there's still plenty of much more highly impactful spells that don't require just 2 energy and may require much, much more energy if you want them to have the desired effect you want them to. You have to take into account Low Mana Zones (or just straight up No Mana Zones for no spellcasting at all regardless of energy costs), the need for pumping up Missile spells to get the most bang, Area Spell costs adding up...

Sure, he could raise up skills with points to raise skill level... but that's not cost effective. So he wants to raise Magery. However, he has to first jump through many hoops via the "training expenses" that are being enforced. Committing ritualistic acts of significant Evil is not easy, and besides the costs for paying for the minimum $1000 in ritual trappings there might be travel expenses for acquiring the items needed, or needing to pay hirelings willing to assist you...

It helps to look at the bigger picture. I'm not always cognizant of absolutely every fine grain detail but I do try to be mindful of the ramifications of design choices.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Let me rephrase this in a more crunchy way.

It makes it clear that the travel rules are entirely optional, boiling travel down to a "travel montage" essentially. The Wilderness Adventures supplement is even more highly optional.

With this in mind, 50% of your spellcasting opportunities are in Town, and 50% of your other spellcasting opportunities are in the Dungeons. Whenever he casts magic, for the duration of the spell casting time he's emitting a intense "eerie light" that is readily identifiable as Evil without need of any means of detecting it through magical means. This means he is very nearly prohibited from casting magic in Town. Sure, you could rent a room at the local Inn just to cast a single spell, draw the blinds real tight and hang a cloth over the door to keep the light from showing through the cracks in and around the door, with a "Do Not Disturb" sign hanging outside... but this is still all too risky to be counting on consistently or reliably (and this is assuming he even snuck into Town with a convincing enough disguise... "Monster Towns" might definitely be a thing, but likely very infrequent).

Assuming the (optional) travel rules are being used and not hand waived away for a travel montage, he's still going to struggle with putting himself at risk for using magic powered by Evil magical energy in the open. If he's within any meaningful close distance from Town, or any other civilized, wholesome people(s), anyone on watch is going to likely see a flare of eerie light that they'll intuitively be able to know as capital E Evil magic being done. Heck, this might even peak the interest of some wandering monsters. I suppose he could find a discrete cave... or any time he wants to cast magic, I suppose he could dig a deep enough hole in the ground, crawl in, and make sure he has it covered tightly enough. That's a lot.

With these facts in mind, his magic is essentially pretty restricted in when he can and can't use it. I had these thoughts in mind when figuring out the -80%, primarily with the default assumption of 50% Town/50% Dungeons w/ abstracted travel montages as the default given that it is made clear that even just the basic travel rules are optional by default, with more deeply emphasized Wilderness Adventures being even more highly optional.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Note : again, just playing devil advocate, you obviously do as you want in your game !

In DF, I would say it is more 10% in town / 90% in the dungeon (+ wilderness travel if applicable.)
But it obviously varies, my own DFRPG game,it is about 70% in town for now ... but it is not really DFRPG either, and I backported lots of social elements from outside DF.

**
Regarding the various reaction penalties :

Race with bad appearance and social stigma can be denied entrance to a town, or are hunted on sight with enough reaction penalties, so Oswald would hardly be alone in being forced to live (well, unlive) "outside the walls."
See the Box "Almost Monster" in DF-3 pg 11.

Oswald already have a -9 to reaction rolls due to the social stigma and monstrous appearance if he does enter.
Occasional -4 for being detected as Evil and -2 for Weirdness magnet are certainly bad, but coming on top of a -9 ... a third of the town already attack you on sight, and only one person in 20 is reluctantly willing to deal with you, so you should avoid town, Black Magic or not.

Remember that your whole party can suffer from your social stigma in certain situations and you have Sense of Duty (Adventuring companions), so for the common good, you should stay outside town anyway ...

A few point of rules :

**
It may be argued that being "Evil with a capital E" is a social stigma, and you cannot stack 2 social stigma. -4 for dead, or -4 for Evil, choose one.

**
You have universal on your monstrous appearance.
Not even Monster towns will welcome you !

**
The point break due to Temporary Disadvantage cannot exceed 80% of
the value of the original disadvantage. (Basic p 115)

So, the "-20%, Eerie light, -4 to reaction roll" cannot save you more than -16 cp on a given advantage.
Not a problem for your ER (yet) but it will kick in at 27 ER !
Be mindful of this if you apply your Black Magic -20% to other advantages (such as magery ...)

**
One could argue that your various Black Magic Reaction penalties limitations are not Pact or temporary disadvantages, but aftermath limitations (from PU8) : They don't hinder the advantage, but after using it, you suffer from a disadvantages for a while (here, a reaction penalty).
As such, they should be at half cost : ie -10% for a -4 to reaction roll instead of -20%.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Regarding power items : their overall importance is also a function of how often you "touch base".

If your mage only cast half a dozen spells between visit to the town, the Power Item is a huge asset.
If your mage cast a thousand spells between visit to the town, the Power Item is a useful tool, no more.

Likewise,
if you play a fast paced delve with little time for breaks (in game)
vs
allowing the characters time to have power nap between rooms.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Hmm, well, I figured the ratios would vary from game to game but I figured for the sake of hypotheticals I'd assume an even split for a future game I'm not playing in yet.

The reaction penalties are largely worked around assuming the Thief (or whoever invests in Disguise) helps you sneak in... I'm sure the GM would want to be sure to make this not always be a effective solution. This is a legitimate tactic.

If there's a intelligent, universally horrific looking monster walking about, one might assume there are in fact other intelligent, universally horrific looking monsters within the game world. Naturally, perhaps they form small communities in which they're not subjected to prejudice. If everyone is a horrific monster, no one is a horrific monster. Hence "very infrequent".

The reaction penalty for wielding Black Magical energy is distinct from the social stigma of being undead. If he suddenly stopped being undead (perhaps like The Lich as shown in the video I pulled my quote from in my sig), he's still going to be wielding Black Magical energy. That suddenly stopping being undead, or losing his Lich template in play, would give reason to regain FP access again and a reason to ensure that's not option reflected in the -80%.

Oswald, in particular, has energy that restores at 1 point an hour. Recover Energy quickens this to 1 point to 12 minutes. One might assume a Power Item would be highly valuable now.

There's those other small quibbles, but I've spent what seems like already a year and then some rigorously developing and balancing this character during my all too much free time during the pandemic. I know that's not an excuse to not further more strictly balance the character but I feel that enough is enough more or less at this point, and from what you're saying it seems to be the case.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

This is going into the esoteric nature of morality, so bear with me.

By default, in general GURPS assumes being Evil to be no more consequential than Good. A Kromm quote verifies this to be definitely the case for DF.

Under these assumptions, sure, Evil is not a meaningful limiting factor for abilities built on points.

Lets be quite frank though. If you made such a statement in reality about morality (as GURPS as a whole assumes and DF especially emphasizes), you would be considered to be someone who is quite possibly a sociopath.

This also has huge implications for the default morality assumptions that DF makes on your behalf. If true Evil is no more consequential than Good, then why not just toss aside all meaningful morals and be a totally deplorable murder hobo?

For Magery, I make the case that it is in fact a meaningful limiting factor because for the average DF game it legitimately restricts when and where you are capable of casting magic.

Oswald is not a complete sociopath. Among many other pop culture inspirations, he takes after Liliana Vess of the MTG Multiverse. I was especially inspired by this video. I especially want Oswald, in his character development over the course of the campaign, to ponder upon the lasting consequences of his past choices.

"...but in the end, it doesn't even matter." - lyrics from the music of the video

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

This actually needs rebalancing. "The eerie light is readily identifiable by anyone as capital E Evil, regardless of whether they have a spell or ability to detect Evil" should be it's own Nuisance Effect -5%. Doing some research into example Nuisance Effects and this seems to be on par with a -5% Nuisance Effect.

Knowing that the reaction modifier should consequently be brought down from -4 to -3.

So:

- Nuisance Effect, -20%: -3 to reactions. The eerie light is identifiable by anyone as capital E Evil, regardless of whether they have a ability or spell to detect Evil.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

I've been thinking about how to value the "limited spellcasting" aspect because of his magic being evil.

With basic default assumptions of 50% Town/50% Dungeons w/ "Travel Montages", roughly 50% of his spellcasting opportunities are very nearly prohibited. We can interpret this as a -50% modifier. We could interpret the clever loopholes (Rooms at an Inn with everything sealed tight, dug up holes to hide in and cover up... etc.) as taking off 10% from that perhaps. So -40%.

If we take Celjabba's rough math, we have a -80% modifier now.

This is my best attempt at quantifying the social ramifications of using Black Magical energy with Magery.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

There is a mistake there.

A general rules for limitations is that "available 50% of the time" is a -20% limitation, not -50%.

See Accessibility in Basic p110 and Power-up 8 p4

A -40% limitation is for an ability available less than 5% of the time, a -50% for 1/10000 situations.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Hmm, good catch. It's hard trying to keep all these details in mind, that's why I've got the forums to tell me what I'm missing. Researching the material is hard. :^)

I just want to make sure I've got it at -80%, and no more than that. I wouldn't want to put what might effectively be -100% or more in Limitations. Wouldn't be good to overcompensate.

With that in mind, if we go by your numbers, it's totaled out at -60% at least. The -20% neatly matches up with the Evil modifier in Powers (just noticed that!) even though it's much more like a Accessibility modifier as you said.

I'll think about that other -20%...

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

I think taking off +10% for "Clever loopholes" is more or less counterbalanced by "Flirting with death by lynch mob" -10%, for a net wash, so what amounts to a -20% modifier does sound right.

I think I might want to re-scrutinize the numbers I was working off of before when I calculated the -80%. I think there's a case to be made for denying access to the cinematic Power Item rules. If not for them, characters would need to pay points to require and replace a Energy Reserve with the appropriate Gadget limitations and a form of Special Recharge... that's quite harsh though, so a equivalent Unusual Background (set to a equivalent value to the highest Energy Reserve built with the previously mentioned Limitations, although you might assume the Power Items would obviously go beyond only storing 40 energy...) would probably suffice for most GMs. By flipping that to a Disadvantage, No Unusual Background (Power Items) [-40], we can figure what amounts to a -40%.

What we have is arguably -40% + -40% + -20% = -100% in Limitations, but that only still brings us to [2] per level of Magery. And since in the grand scheme of things (applying Talent costing brings that 10 point Magery to 15 points, and smooth Talent costing as per the Talents book makes that hundreds) it is quite fair. That extra -20% over -80% and the aggressively balanced "training expenses" rules being enforced make this very balanced.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

This very much reflects my own personal tastes I suppose, but the Power Item rules very much explicitly express "Money equals Power". That's a very treacherous path to be taking with game rules... but they're a part of the default rules for DF, so it is what it is.

My mind naturally wants to take this to its natural conclusion. Evil Wizards would've wanted to get ahold of whatever magitech the Wizard's Guild is using to empower Power Items at the price of some cheap movie theater popcorn per point of energy.

Perhaps the Evil Wizards, some long time ago, took and ran with the secrets to this magitech and developed a wicked item of power. I envision a top-heavy staff, it's wood blackened with the taint of Evil, a sinister metal chamber at the top of it with indestructible glass panels letting the user see inside. The wielder may open the chamber to insert an amount of coin and valuable gems. As the wielder casts their magic, they may draw upon the energy from this staff. As energy is required, the coins and gems inside the chamber whirl about, converting into black magical energy to power the Evil Wizard's spells.

Such an item should probably cost as least as much as twice of what a 40 energy Power Item would cost, and it's a item exclusively usable only by a Wizard who is a Evil Wizard because they (at minimum) invested points into Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) and/or the Magery with the appropriate modifier.

It'd probably be a very near the end of campaign item, probably to be found at the bottom of a lengthy dungeon meant to test the true mettle of Evil Wizards and their adventuring companions. Of course, Oswald doesn't have access to external energy sources but I imagine the GM would be fair enough to allow the "no Power Items" aspect to be bought off over the course of the campaign.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Just an alternative number crunching for the modifier for Magery.

"Can't Use External Energy", for -15%, limits you to internal energy, or ER, FP, and HP. If we cut out FP (What better way to hose a Lich than to take away their lichdom?) and HP, that's 2/3 more limiting. We can reinterpret this as a 70% increase to -15%, or what is now a -25% modifier.

What about taking into account the ubiquity of external energy sources?

Every Wizard has the option to begin the game with their own personal Power Item, that much is known already. They can be recharged at Town for small change, or replaced with a improved Power Item at Town, or a existing Power Item can be improved with additional items to add value for a greater store of energy.

If Paut is something that can be purchased during char gen to put on your equipment loadout as well, it could be assumed that it ought to be purchasable at any Ye Olde Magic Shoppe in any Town. Healing Potions indirectly function as a external energy source, as HP can be burned to power spells. Like Paut, you can pick it up to add to your equipment loadout during char gen, and considering the genre it could be safely assumed to be as equally ubiquitous as well and purchasable at any Ye Olde Magic Shoppe... or even more likely to be bought at what amounts to a "fantasy general merchandise store" that's pretty ubiquitous within fantasy gaming. Adventurers makes a point of mentioning the availability of items, e.g. as noted under Basics, Special Orders, and Magic Items, etc.. Concoctions notes that "Dungeon fantasy wouldn’t be complete without delvers swilling healing and strength potions...", so it can be inferred that consumables like Healing Potions and Paut are very ubiquitous, and given the typical party size of 3-5 adventurers stores will likely stock them accordingly.

I think it is safe to assume high ubiquity of external energy sources, and the DF material certainly suggests that. We can figure this to probably be valued at increasing the -25% by another -40%. I figure the -40% as per pricing for a Accessibility modifier... it could be safely assumed with default DF assumptions that 95% of the time Town is stocked with consumables appropriate for the typical adventuring party, and that Town has a Druid's Circle/Temple/Wizard's Guild to empower your Power Item. -40% seems right.

Then there's taking into account the social ramifications of wielding black magical energy with Magery. Contrary to what appears to be a morality system that incentives murder-hoboery, I'm going to insist that Evil has meaningful consequences. Realistically you can't just cast Evil magic any where at any time... assuming a healthy default of 50% Town roleplaying and 50% Dungeon roleplaying with the minimum "Travel Montages" (and even if we assume at least the basic travel rules, I do not think it moves the needle too far in terms of risk vs. reward), we already arrived at what amounts to a -20% modifier. "Clever loopholes to avoid social fallout" is balanced by "Flirting with death by lynch mob" for a net wash, so that's still -20%.

So -25% + -40% + -20% = -85%. I think this is a much better reasoned net modifier for Magery.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

It just occurred to me the question of "Doesn't the auto-detection of the "eerie light" as Evil nullify meaningfulness of the reaction modifier?" might come up. No, it wouldn't actually. If he encounters other Evil entities, they'll still react at -3 to the eerie light even though they don't care that it's Evil. Evil has standards... and any Evil Wizard who's acquired black magical energy will have sacrificed not just virgins but also sacrificed babies, skinned puppies alive, sipped the tears of an orphan whose parents were killed by said Evil Wizard, etc.

I'm really beginning to realize I'll need to be equipped to debunk as many accusations of bad taste in design as possible. Every time a GM raises a point that highlights something "problematic", the sensible thing for the player to do is to immediately offer the most effective solution to be implemented. I've done so repeatedly in this thread already, and when it comes to bringing Oswald to the table I'll continue doing so.

EDIT: Also, someone was thoughtful enough to mention (on the Discord) "redlining" to spend "FP" when you don't have any, as undead or machines might be capable of doing. I definitely want that to NOT be an option, and for that to be reflected in the -80%.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Celjabba, and Christopher Rice (on Discord) have stated previously that allowing Disguise (not always convenient, as a good GM would make sure it's not always a effective or even available solution) to work around a lot of his negative reaction modifiers is inappropriate. The obvious and frankly easy solution is to treat this, for the duration of the time that his disguise remains effective, as a different form of Disadvantage, a very extreme Secret, for +0%.

I know the easy thing to do is to have very reactionary responses without looking at the bigger picture (as evident with previous replies), but you have to be rational about these things. I know Evil/Anti-Hero characters have a long history of being seen as "too problematic to ever play as or even run a campaign with", but a insightful, creative outside the box thinker can easily turn these impossibilities into possibilities. I think the people who play TTRPGs need to be open to unconventional wisdom, otherwise the ideas for campaign premises will dry up real quick.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

I would treat Disguise as a Mitigator on appearance issues. Has to be applied once per day, requires skill roll... probably -70%.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Wouldn't this actually imply the RAW negative Appearance traits need to actually be repriced to accommodate such work arounds? This appears to be the very apparent case, rather than what you suggest.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Disguise isn't a skill he has, I keep bringing it up because I want to help facilitate a game where the Thief is a effectual character archetype. Oswald can anticipate and deal with magical traps, but the Thief will be more valuable with mundane traps. The Thief's repertoire of uncouth skills will positively synergize with Oswald, providing plenty of hooks for meaningful roleplay opportunities that will allow them to perpetually play off of each other.

The Thief is well known as being pretty poo-poo choice to play in DF, but I want to help someone who's disappointed by this by supplying them more meaningful roleplay opportunities. Plenty of people recognize that a good player bakes roleplaying hooks for other characters to work off of.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

I think Tymathee's in the right about the cost of Appearance. You could attempt to improve any character's Appearance with Disguise (or the similar Makeup skill, which defaults to Disguise-2 and even says in so many words that one use of it is to improve appearance). Oswald the Violet's skull-face is probably not particularly harder to conceal than any other kind of Monstrous Appearance (i.e., "give up and put a really big hat over it" :-D). So I'd have assumed this is included in the listed price of Appearance and you don't have to buy it as a Mitigator.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

For the record, I don't think I said so, suggested a mitigator or spoke against disguise, and I am fine with Oswald attempting to sneak in disguised !
If I accidentally implied otherwise, it wasn't intended.
As you said, make-up and disguise cannot be an easy, foolproof, permanent solution, but that certainly doesn't mean it cannot ever work.

I did question the wisdom of a character with -5 from monstrous(universal) added to a -4 social stigma and further circumstantial -7 reaction penalties on top of that base -9 but I am fine with attempting to disguise some of it away.

When wrapping the character mummy like, putting a mask on his face and calling him a leper actually improve his reaction rolls by +4 or +5 (+6 with fine robes and an ornate silver mask), it may suggest the disadvantages are a bit excessive, however. And possibly redundant.

I would personally forbid the combination on a player character, but if allowed, I am perfectly ok with any attempted disguising or other sneaking around.

Do note that with Weirdness Magnet, a successful disguise attempt may still lead to 'interesting' situations from time to time :)

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

My modified Lich template is pretty faithful to GURPS lich templates (From the Bottom Up, a Pyramid article for DF for playing as monsters) as well as templates for skeletal undead. The only major exception is no Dependency on Mana, which could be justified as a "Inner Darkness" trait, which is "Inner Light" with the serial numbers filed off that Faerie-Folk may acquire to buy off their own Dependency on Mana.

On those same undead templates will often have both a negative appearance (Monstrous or Horrific) and Social Stigma (Undead).

A Kromm quote confirms the validity of having a social stigma basically be a force multiplier for how people react to your appearance.

You could forbid it, but doing so isn't very RAW (nothing wrong with that, as I've taken logical liberties with some design aspects myself, but just saying).

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

We should take a lot of these assumptions being made and come to the natural conclusion that negative reaction modifiers are not meaningful disadvantages or limiting factors for traits or abilities because of circumstantial positive reaction modifiers.

However, that's veering towards the mentality of a rather adversarial-style GM'ing trying to invalidate the debilitating traits of PCs because of their own personal preferences.

I totally expect there to be the meaningful consequences that these traits would entail, HOWEVER I also expect that there be logical, rational workarounds to be employed but not forever exploited. That path yields a bad taste in the mouth of terrible munchkinry.

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

Your version have

Disadvantages:
Appearance (Monstrous; Universal, +25%) [-25]
Social Stigma (Dead) [-20]

which perfectly match the skeleton template in Zombies (p69)

but not the lich in Pyramid 72 which only have Social Stigma (Monster) [-15]; and refer to the necromancer template : Appearance (Unattractive, Ugly, or Hideous)

Zombies do mention that those templates are
"if the GM allows them for PCs" (emphasis mine)
and Characters p 21
suggest that
"Horrific: ... The GM may decide that this trait is supernatural and unavailable to normal characters.
Monstrous: ... Again, this trait might not be appropriate for normal characters. "

so a GM saying no is not only rule zero but RAW as well.

I am well aware of the Kromm quote, and agree with it, I just don't want those level of negative modifiers for player characters in my games. Obviously, every GM do as they want.

I don't object because of possible workarounds, those are fine, I object because I don't wish for player characters with such penalties.
And yes, it is a personal preference.
My game, my rules.
Your game, your rules.

I will stop from commenting on this thread, we are obviously not going to agree, and that's fine !
I said it before, while I would not accept it in my games as written, I do like the character concept, and I truly hope you will have fun playing it !

Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet
 

The template was suited to fit the concept, as FP doesn't make sense for a skeletal undead unless you want comical-realism, and the social stigma only makes sense because realistically there are social ramifications for being undead.

Playing this character makes the assumption that the campaign is appropriately suited for such a character. I'm not making a wrongful point by stating this, it's just common sense.

A lot of these objections are highly subjective and soley based on the opinion of a single GM and likely not reflective of the experience that I'll have at any table that Oswald would be played at, so I'm not concerned by your clearly adversarial-style GM'ing. The arguably malicious bait'n'switch tactics (as you mentioned on Discord) you invoke are a huge red flag to a lot of people.