Character Advancement
 

I'm thinking of coming back to the game after a 25 year hiatus, and trying to sell a new GURPS campaign to my group. The stumbling block is that while the character creation is amazing, the reason our group stopped playing GURPS was the character advancement, or the lack thereof.

The issue was/is that, with the exception of skills, once one creates a character there is no real advancement to look forward to. Unlike games such as D&D, GURPS characters can play an entire campaign and maybe get to increase a few skills and buy some marginally better equipment. That's not very rewarding for 20 sessions of gaming.

The problem lies in that most of the coolest stuff are things like Advantages, most of which one can't get after creation and stat increases are prohibitively expensive. By contrast in games like D&D, all the coolest stuff is to be earned during play and leveling. In other words after 20 sessions a GURPS character is basically the same. 20 sessions of D&D and one has earned many more abilities, HP, and is exponentially more badass.

While I'm sure some reading this may want to snap off a "git guud scrub" or a "if you don't like GURPS gtfo", I was hoping someone may have a homebrew solution, or any other advice I can use to get my group excited about GURPS again?

Re: Character Advancement
 

Stat increases are no longer prohibitively expensive. In GURPS fourth edition, which appeared in 2004 while you were away, buying up stats in play costs the same as at character generation. Quite a few people dropped the "double cost in play" rule in 3e days, and it was abandoned at 4e.

Skill costs also changed at 4e. It's cheaper to buy DX-based skills up to high levels, although IQ-based skills got somewhat more expensive.

The rules for acquiring advantages in play were also overhauled. The changes defy brief summary, but you can do more. Many GMs also allow characters to acquire "non-learnable" advantages under some circumstances. For example, in one campaign I play, that whole party was exposed to an enormously powerful magical field for an hour or so, and several of them developed new magic-based advantages.

Re: Character Advancement
 

To buy any trait you just need the points and a reasonable explanation of how you got it. And as mentioned there's no longer a 2x cost modifier to buy up stats.

Re: Character Advancement
 

In addition tl the incremental buying as you go advancement of a few points per session, it's common in my gaming group for the GM to award a bigger block of points or specific Advantages at the end of a story arc.

Re: Character Advancement
 

Give you players more points, and be liberal in allowing them to increase attributes and advantages. I give out 5 points per session in my Dungeon Fantasy games (DFRPG to be precise), and the characters have purchased advantages such as Extra Attack, which increases theirs combat strength by a lot.

Re: Character Advancement
 

In the modern edition there are no rules against gaining anything you want in play, although many advantages (the kind that usually are only found as species traits) might need some rather unusual explanation. And there are no point cost differentials regardless of when you get things.

You still may not be able to buy much in 20 sessions (certainly compared to the D&D growth curve) if you follow the Basic Set recommendation of averaging 2-3 points per session, but you're expressly allowed to disregard that. You might want to deal out 10 or more points per session!

Re: Character Advancement
 

I think you should talk with your friends and learn about character expectations.

Also, you could offer them a starting budget of 125, and plan things in such a way everybody has the chance of acquiring another 125 CP in 20 sessions; then they will have ~250 CP characters, which IMO builds the basic “DFRPG heroic characters”.

Up to ~30 points every 5 sessions, sounds about right to fulfill the objective and also buy-off some disadvantages.

Re: Character Advancement
 

You might point out to your friends that those "advancements" they look forward to accumulate quickly enough to make the game almost unplayable beyond 8th or 9th level. A GURPS campaign will not suffer the power creep or rulebook calculus that builds in level-based systems.

Re: Character Advancement
 

It's perfectly acceptable, if you want the effect it gives, to start characters with fairly low point values, say 50-100 for classic D&D-like fantasy game. Then hand out generous numbers of points per session (5-10 or even more), and allow players to buy stuff that in a strictly 'mundane' game might not be allowed as in-play purchases.

If you want a really D&D-like experience, put together 25-point packages and allow players to add one to their characters every 3-4 sessions (like levelling up in D&D).

If you want the whole D&D thing, with dungeons and all, I recommend buying either the Dungeon Fantasy series of supplements (the first couple, plus any others that cover something you're interesting in), or the complete in itself Dungeon Fantasy Role-Playing Game, which is GURPS 4e cut down for dungeon fantasy without all the bits that you don't need for that.

That depends on how long it runs...

I've been handing out points on a diminishing scale for some years now (3/session under 400 points, 2/session <800, 1/session at 800+), and have a couple of 1200-point PCs. Even disallowing explicitly cinematic advantages, they are monsters in their way.

Re: Character Advancement
 

I think that my players in the previous GURPS campaign might disagree with the "No character advancement".

The campaign was a fantasy "From starting bumbling heroes to minor gods"

They started at 100 points and ended up above 5000 points during the campaign consisting of 411 sessions and about 3300 hours of play time.

I gave out a base of 1 point/play hour and an additional bonus for completing campaign and character objectives. The bonuses amounted to about +50% to the total in the long run.

You can read the basic rundown of the progress and such in: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=169711

Re: Character Advancement
 

If the problem is that their characters don't grow fast enough you can (a) simply assign whatever traits are suitable and justifiable based on the character's experiences during play or (b) give them whatever amount of points y'all find generates the expected growth speed. If (b), and the group is expecting something like D&D's growth speed, I'd suggest starting out by multiplying the default point awards by 5 and then adjusting from there to suit your group's taste.

Re: Character Advancement
 

GURPS advancement is slow. It doesn't feature rapid rises to power like D&D. Instead it creates a more realistic growth for a person. When I say "Realistic" I don't mean to say that your desire for faster character growth is bad or wrong, just that exceeding that recommended CP per game will increasingly make character development make less sense. Regardless of how much CP you hand out, most advantages are a reflection of aptitude rather than advancement and really shouldn't be "learned".

If your players want big increases, a good solution might be to just hand them cool powers. Give them equipment that makes them powerful or let them get strange abilities through wishes or cosmic empowerment.

Re: Character Advancement
 

Maybe this is true to reality. Maybe. But it's not true to lots of gaming worlds and a number of fictional ones. And there's absolutely nothing about GURPS that compels you hew to that maybe-realistic theory of growth.

Re: Character Advancement
 

an alternative rule that i've allowed in my game that creates an advancement is that players can reformat points to increase attributes.

So say a character has 10 4 point intelligence skills they can pull 2 points from each of them to make 20 points and add a point of IQ. The points pulled must not lower any skill but then IQ is now one point higher and all skills are recalculated. I do that in essentially all games that starts at a low point level.

Re: Character Advancement
 

Huh. What does a 'not explicitly cinematic' 1200-pt character look like?

Re: Character Advancement
 

They probably can't do anything that would be impossible for a human to do, while being an expert at a wide range of subjects, enough to compete with the best in nearly any field of endeavour.

Re: Character Advancement
 

Depending what kind of setting you have it is your job as GM to determine what kind of advancement your "team" can have with their chosen character concepts and how they will "train" up and "level" up. You can consider "leveling" an idea that a new advantage might be available to a warrior (or access to a new spell tree, etc). Without knowing anything about your campaign setting I can't give specific suggestions.



If it is a dungeon fantasy setting, I suggest looking into the GURPS "GURPS Dungeon Fantasy"* set of products at e23. They have gone to the trouble to package standard classes and give "next level" suggestions for class and race.
Say a warrior might learn High Pain Threshold, or a dwarf might learn some Magic Resistance (Switchable). Also remember that not all awards are "tangible", such as patrons, reputation, Rank (B499)

A "levelup" scenario can often be represented as some sort of advanced training appropriate to your setting between adventures (visit the dojo, combat sim, wizard tower, commune with the otherworldly powers). (See the advice around "Controlling Character Development" p.B499)



Stat increases are expensive?

Note that it is permitted secondary characteristicscan vary by 30% off base (B16). With GM advice an adventurer can buy them in parcels for incremental benefits until complete.

ST - base 10/level
You can start it with
+1 HP 2cp (B16)
+1 Striking ST

IQ - base 20/level
You can start with
CORE IQ: 10/level ( no Will, Per)
then add +1 Will, Per for 5cp each and you can match with "Stock IQ"


the next two are intertwined for Speed/Move
DX: Base 10/level
Start with
+1 Basic Move (B17) [5]
+0.25 Basic Speed
And optionally Higher Manual Dexterity 5/level (B59) (if a PC would benefit)

HT: Base 10/level
Also +1 FP (3/level)



* (I say it this way as I personally prefer the GURPS "GURPS Dungeon Fantasy" product in contrast to the "Dungeon Fantasy (Powered by GURPS)" also available but still refer to the latter for all the work to gather rules together.

Re: Character Advancement
 

While it's been three years, and the OP was the only post the person ever made, I have an extraordinarily hard time wrapping my head around the nonsensical statement of "In other words after 20 sessions a GURPS character is basically the same." We're talking what, 40 points for a mediocre player in a campaign where not a whole lot happens? That's quite a lot of advancement. (Never mind that if the players really, honestly, have to go newbie-to-superhero overnight, for pity's sake, just hand over 5x XP a session or something.) Then again, I also have a heretical take on things:

For many years I was in a combat fantasy LARP, playing a priest-mage (for lack of a simpler term). By 1994, I maxed out all the spells the system would allow me to have and still carry a sword of an effective length. In that season, I was 34 years old and was just about as effective a fighter as my gradually deteriorating knees and wrists would allow me to be. I was, by that time, also a prince at the head of my own nation, and the most prominent ritual magician in the game.

I played for eight more years and about 150 events, never advancing one jot further. Social progress only came with the retirement of other players; of the several of us who were major leaders, all but one of us was in place for several years, and the longest standing one was a Queen for nearly 15 years. Meanwhile, I wasn't getting any younger, and gradually made the move from being a front line-capable fighter to an archer because my joints and hand strength weren't reliable enough any more.

In short, I didn't "advance." Few people, once they'd learned their quota of spells and gotten past newbie stage with a weapon, ever did. Somehow we managed to have fun nonetheless. Who knew?

Re: Character Advancement
 

Rewards for the PC's don't have to just be points, cash or gear. When the party saves a town or two they should develop a Reputation advantage in addition to bonus points. You want to boost the players abilities into more cinematic territory have them meet a teacher who gives them a crash course that qualifies them for Trained by a Master. After a few jobs for a wealthy employer have the relationship evolve into the Patron advantage. Adventures can reward your PC's in any way you can imagine as long as it makes sense in your setting and they story you're telling. Of course the reverse is true as well. Injuries can leave characters maimed if you're using those rules. A colossal foul up in front of witnesses can provide a negative reputation. If your players liked a particular antagonistic NPC who didn't end up an absolutely confirmed kill can become an Enemy popping up again and again. It all depends on what kind of game you want to run.

Re: Character Advancement
 

Says who? It's your game, run it the way you want. Let them buy Advantages, kewl Powers, etc.

Run the game you want to play in.



Doesn't ahve to be. Hand out 25 exp per session if that's what it takes for you Players to feel the advancement.

Run the game you want to play in.

I'm making that my new slogan, "Run the game you want to play in."

Re: Character Advancement
 

I wrote up a similar procedure for GURPS Social Engineering: Back to School. At least one of the players in my current GURPS campaign, Fronteira, has used it.

Re: Character Advancement
 

GURPS Advancement doesn't need to be slow, it can be as fast or as slow as you want it to be. As well as this, you don't need to give out CP for players to feel that they are advancing, fancy tools and equipment can provide that same feeling, although shouldn't be relied on. If players are feeling that they are advancing too slow, then maybe bump up their CP gain per session.

Re: Character Advancement
 

I have a standard rule that makes attribute raises allowable. When you get enough skill points that allows you to raise an attribute without losing levels I allow them to switch out the points.

So lets say you have 10 Dex level skills at the 4 point level you can drop them down to the 2 point level and add a level of Dex. Though I essentially never use different attributes for skills. I also give 2 to 3 points for each game and allow them to add advantages (with GM ok) that fit their circumstances. Also a lot of "magic" types use advantages for the powers if you make scalable powers they can easily grow.

I should warn that it takes about 30 to 50 games before we switch to a different game as the characters get kind of hard to challenge. I tend to run cinematic games in general but the feeling of no advancement is pretty easy to combat but you have to warn them that campaigns will be likely be shorter.

Re: Character Advancement
 

About stats and advantage problem... Had that one. Now I give points that you can only use on advantages and stats. You can grow your psionic powers just because, but not learn physiology.

And for skills you need to get xp by learning. Time skips are very frequent thing in games I run or play. Everyone likes to craft, I suppose. Or make me build churches, for some reason.

And I give xp in things characters used in some interesting way, or to get to some milestone, or just +1 xp to HT or Hard to Kill for not dying. To skills I give points too. But this is what we came up to. Everybody in my group js using this 'advancement system' so I suppose everyone like that

I don't know if it would be helpful to someone, but here it is)

Re: Character Advancement
 

I did a post on this years ago, referring to it as "Ongoing Optimization" and the general consensus was that that is what people tended to do in general.

It should be pointed out that this is not without a cost outside of the point accounting. It will have an impact on the effectiveness of the affected skills when floated to another attribute!

Re: Character Advancement
 

A potential solution I came up with for that is a trait I call Training, specialized to Training (Mental) and Training (Physical). Each cost [15] per level and give bonuses to "Trained Skills" - that is, those skills that you have invested at least [1] into. Training (Mental) applies to all skills that are typically based on IQ, Per, or Will, while Training (Physical) instead applies to those that are typically based on DX (you could optionally roll HT into that as well). This bonus is treated as being learned skill, and thus applies when it's floated to a different attribute (or floated to 10), for determining bonuses for Weapon Master or Trained ST, etc.

The point was more so that you can build a veteran with a wide array of related abilities without the system pushing you toward re-envisioning your character as a DX-monkey or high-IQ genius with only modest skill investment, as the latter is far less expensive (and the drawback of reduced skill when floating to another attribute tends to be more than made up for by having a higher DX+Speed or IQ+Per+Will, as those have their own benefits). But it would also work well for advancing an existing character - every [4] goes toward giving a +1 to a single skill, and once you've boosted three skills this way then once you've built up another [3] you can pull those points back out and combine them with that [3] to get a level of Training which gives a +1 to all the relevant skills.

Re: Character Advancement
 

That makes sense and is not all that far off from the rules Sean 'Kromm' Punch wrote for 'Job Training' on p. 25-26 in GURPS Power-Ups 3: Talents.