Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

I personally like the Fantastic Dungeon Grappling a bit more for its simplicity, but there are some points which I'm wondering are because of space requirements/simplicity or balance.

Constriction Attack inflicts double CP in Technical Grappling. This seems gone in Fantastic Grappling.

The Binding advantage is also not mentioned. Should we assume it just inflicts CP as normal? What about stuff like spider-web or anything with layering? Should we just assume there is no upper CP limit for it? Also, Engulfing doubled CP inflicted, do you still think this should be a thing? Same with Binding having DR/Control Resistance equal to level/3.

I don't see any mention of how much CR inflicted by grappling with weapons either, or the max CR. Technical Grappling had a bunch of rules about leverage?

Anything else which didn't really get transferred?

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

Simplicity and conformity with the rules and assumptions for a product that supports the Dungeon Fantasy RPG. "Balance" is tricky no matter what.

We tried to distill it down to its essence, remove the special-case rules that made it more complex than needed.

If one hearkens back to the Basic Set, Constriction Attack is just "you can roll a QC and damage your opponent each turn after a grapple."

The quick-version of Strangle in FDG returns to this concept, and Constriction attack in FDG just says "yah, you can do this by crushing the BODY, not just the NECK." It's simpler, requires no special cases, and closer to both the Basic Set and the (more pertinent) rules for Suffocation on Exploits p. 70.

one of the reasons for the extra CP in the original TG was the requirement to (almost) always spend CP for damage. You'll notice that's not always enforced in FDG, though it's always optional. While it worked as a mechanic, narratively it was always jarring.

Not precisely true. It is mentioned on p. 8 in "It's a Trap!"

The strength of a binding is set by the power/ability design. Much like any other grappling attack, it has a maximum grapple power equal to 2x it's Control Maximum. For a spell or power that just grabs you and never rolls to defend itself, I'd just let CP accumulate to that maximum value and then that's it.

I don't think so. If you wanted to make an engulfing attack harder to break out of, assign Control Resistance as recommended in "It's a Trap!"

Technical Grappling more or less tried to provide special consideration for everything, because I was a novice writer. "A bunch of rules..." for everything is less helpful than good guidance and fewer special cases...or that's what years of playing with the rules in actual games taught me.

Control Resistance is not a feature of most weapons. Special items like handcuffs, sure (see It's a Trap again). The maximum CR will depend on the device. Cuffs sufficient to entrap a ST 50 giant will probably have CR of 25 or even more.

Grappling with weapons is now a bit of a switch. Some weapons (most weapons, since you can "grapple" with a sword or shield using the Weapon/Shield Bind concept, it's just your foe can escape from that kind of grapple simply by backing up) enable you to grapple with them, from a distance. CP rolled is set by your thrust damage, and Judo or Melee Weapon gives boosts for skill. It would be entirely plausible for a GM to say "Hmm...a garotte is a purpose-built grappling weapon, so we're going to base it on the Wrestling progression instead of Judo."

Returning to the beginning: Keeping it simple was the goal. The Chaotic GM has a great piece on how you can do just about every Technique in TG with FDG for those who want more detail.

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

This makes the Constriction advantage rather underwhelming though? You're paying a lot of points for the ability to choke a fairly limited group of targets without targeting the neck.

So, if I grapple with the hook of a Halberd (which I assume the opponent can't just back out of, since its a hook?) do I roll damage based on my regular wrestling bonus + base thrust, or do I roll the halberds more impressive damage?

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

I've recently started using Binding in my games and it has been working very nicely by inflicting CP based on thrust damage of its ST. There were also some talks a while back about an Innate Attack doing CP damage and what would be a good price for it (IIRC something like 10/level was being tossed around), but after going with Binding like this I don't think it's necessary for such an Innate Attack to exist.

I wouldn't use Engulfing at all with FDG, it doesn't fit the paradigm. Buy more levels of Binding and/or assign more Control Resistance. Speaking of which, I must confess I completely forgot about Control Resistance when I designed some weapons inflicting CP a while back (tanglers and similar). But it worked well without it as I simply assigned what seemed like enough control damage. That being said, it would be a good idea to figure out pricing for assigning Control Resistance to Binding, and it would also be a good idea to unify breaking a binding via grappling and breaking by damaging it. The latter hasn't come up in my campaigns yet so I haven't given it any thought. I'm just not sure that Binding should have Control Resistance equal to 1/3 ST by default.

One further datapoint - I've treated repeated Binding attacks against the same target as adding CP equal to just the number of control dice the attack normally does, as an analogue to further application of RAW Binding adding just +1 ST.

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

You roll thrust appropriate for your ST + Lifting ST based on the Judo or Melee Weapon progression as per page 3 of FDG. The non-control damage of weapons is not used for anything.

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

In the DFRPG, Constriction Attack (Monsters, p. 10) effects coincide almost entirely with the Strangle reference from FDG. If there's a problem with cost, that's a bit tangential for this game as it's a Monster trait not found in the Adventurers book.


As Exxar said: Neither one. You roll thrust based on your (Lifting) ST, modified for skill as per Melee Weapon.

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

For what it's worth, we had a similar type of discussion way back when for the same topic in TG, which resulted in the "Funky Powers" box in that book. Innate Attack and a telekinetic grapple were basically incompatible with each other, and using the TK grapple produced better results.

Interesting note: "engulfing goo" is mentioned under Constriction Attack. So if you want something Engulfing, just say it qualifies for Constriction Attack (Monsters p. 10) and call it a day, perhaps.

This is likely true; the effect of Control Resistance is similar to that of an always-successful re-grapple, with as many attacks as needed, etc. Getting an extra few points of CR is a big deal. A point of CR is likely worth more than twice as much as a Control Point, as it's always there and can't be removed.

That's a nice simple way of doing it. Another would likely be "reroll damage, keep it if higher."

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

I've used both in campaigns and I think it was in my AEON supers game where we (Doug and I) started stripping down TG to be simpler for the other players. I know we were using some ideas Peter Dell'Orto had and eventually Doug wrote up Dungeon Grappling. FDG didn't come around until the next campaign where we used it instead of the base rules from then on.

I've probably used it more than any GM that isn't Doug at this point as I've run hundreds of sessions and it was adopted for use before it was released to the public. It's a good system and it mirrors how grappling really works (and you don't have to worry about things like "Grip ST") and it's simple. You don't always get those two in the same package, much less well-built to boot.

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

Don't have the DFRPG main books, only the GURPS ones. I mostly bought the Fantastic Dungeon Grappling book because it was a simplified version of the Technical Grappling one.

Anyway, does strangling take an action, or it is a free action anyone can do it when they grapple the right location? It is a bit unclear to me based on what FDG says.

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

Sensible! But the book is written in the context of larger-than-life fantasy exploits based on a specific ruleset, in this case the Dungeon Fantasy RPG.

It's an attack that takes your entire turn, definitely not a free action. I'd rule you can't do it twice (Rapid Strike to strangle twice, for example).

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

Do you have a list of differences between the rules for GURPS and the DFRPG in regards to grappling somewhere? They're very similar, but it's when things are very similar that I start overlooking differences, because I assumed I knew how things work.

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

I don't. I don't have a license to write for regular GURPS, just Powered by GURPS, so I haven't really focused on anything mainstream GURPS since 2012 or so.

It'd be an interesting examination, but not one I have time for at the moment!

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

I think I missed the fact that you don't have to spend CP for strangling unlike "Injure the Foe". That does make strangling significantly better, and the ability to do so without getting hold of the neck (-5 to target) is actually worth something.

Probably enemies with carapace or solid armor would reduce this damage though, so it compares unfavorably to the neck for armored opponents.

Anyway, how does grappling with the torso work with stuff like "Number of Limbs"? If a snake-person grapples with both arms and tail, is that 3 limbs? If I wanted a snake tail to count for more would I buy that as some sort of limited version of Extra Arm?

How about leg grapples? Let's say we have a giant spider that wants to pin an opponent. It has 8 legs and a mouth, but no fine manipulators/arms.

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

Btw. when using the optional "Knowing Your Own Strength", what thresholds would you suggest for Lifting ST when using Grab and Go etc.? KYOS-Lifting ST scales up dramatically faster, so a straight multiple seems overkill. Each 10x ST multiplies Lift by 10 after all...

+3 ST is already 100% increase in lifting ST.

I guess the easy, if a bit 'game-y', solution is to just double the relative levels of ST for everything (since KYOS Lifting ST costs 7/level under KYOS instead of 3/level).

Though if so I still feel like something like Grab & Go would be better based on basic lift. Maybe instead of doing percentages we could just say +3 ST (rounded to +4 if doubling relative levels...) lets you make a full move. -2 ST means you can only take a step.

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

I wouldn't treat this any different than injuring the foe - so DR would only protect if you were Homogeneous. Don't see the need for any extra complexity or detail here.

I could see treating a Constriction Attack as two limbs even. Especially if you're coming from the GURPS angle where Constriction Attack loses some of its worth because anyone can spend CP for damage and Constriction Attack only lets you strangle without grabbing the neck.

Animals that grapple get afforded a two-handed grapple despite not having arms. So honestly unless a limb were designed for grappling I wouldn't afford any bonus from it. And spider legs don't sound that way.

I think I'd really lean into KYOS' "twice as strong" comparisons, so a grab and go would let you move for your full move if your ST were by 3 or more greater, half move for 0-2, and a step if your victim had up to 3 more ST than you.

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

I figured part of why you gave that double-CP benefit to Constriction Attack was that Martial Arts kinda gave partial Constriction Attack privileges to muggles on MA117 under Bear Hugs. Instead of "strangles vs torsos, period" it's just "your torso strangles that anyone can try now work against your own SM instead of just lesser SM... and there's no -5 penalty like doing a one-handed strangle even when you're required to use two arms or two legs.

but I guess MA116 offset that by giving it some new boosts like unpenalized hands-free grappling techniques using torso, which Basic Set didn't exactly say... though MA did also require Double-Jointed for that, which boosts DJ and CA both in a way.

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

Makes sense. I'll probably run for that for Nagas/Lamia.

I'm tempted to do something similar for an arachne/drider-like character, letting them buy a technique to use legs for grappling/assisting with grappling. Perhaps a Technique defaulting to <unarmed skill>-3 or something.

Technical Grappling had rules for leg-grappling, but Fantastic Dungeon Grappling is lacking something like that. I'd really like to see a bit of a comfortable in-between of the over-complicated Technical Grappling, and the rather bare-bones Dungeon Grappling.

The question is what to do about using Lifting ST for normal contests. Since Lifting ST is now highly exponential it gets... weird.

I'm currently trying to decide between using Striking-ST for grappling instead (I already price it at 2/points level instead of 1/point level), or counting Lifting ST as `Lifting-ST*2 - 10`.

Both have pros and cons. Striking ST is simple, and makes the scaling less weird. It also makes it easier to make a KYOS Lifting-ST 25 creature wrestle believably by simply giving it a lot more Striking-ST than Lifting-ST. Could probably do Striking-ST (Wrestling only, -30%) or something too.

Lifting-ST keeps the idea of wrestling being more based around your "slow" strength though, while using Striking-ST essentially creatings 'Lifting-ST', 'Striking-ST', and 'Wrestling-ST' :\

I'm not a wrestler/grapple myself, but isn't a choke-hold supposed to be rather difficult to do unless you're behind the person too, most techniques I've seen involve locking your arms around their neck from the back.

I don't mind Cinematic Martial artists (or Infinite's vampire who has super-strength) one-hand choking out someone, but they should probably pay for some sort of technique. Or at least require something like the Trained by Master advantage.

As it is there isn't really a reason to pick up stuff like the Constriction Attack. I mean, compared to just getting 4 levels of Wrestling it is a really really weak pick.

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

My instinct on the "what to do with Constriction Attack" question is to have it allow you to grapple with your body as well as a normal person could with two hands (albeit possibly with only a limited subset of targets and techniques), so a snake with it can wrap and strangle while having No Fine Manipulators, and a lamia with it can wrap and strangle while either keeping arms free for other work or grappling with them as well for the "extra arms" bonus.

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

Letting someone with double-jointed grapple with their torso is actually a special trick if you have constriction attack. Some races would have it without a snake-like body, so it probably shouldn't be meaningful only to snakes.

Re: Fantastic Dungeon Grappling & Technical Grappling
 

Given that there's Cotton Stomach perk introduced in MA it's kinda confusing why they sorta packaged a free version of it for those who had both Constriction Attack and Double-Jointed.

TG27 at least gave some helpful text regarding what Constriction's meant to represent: "a core physiology and musculature optimized for exerting strength laterally"

There's also that new discount on it for those who have Extra Flexible on two arms. No mention of Legs, I guess because B55 doesn't include an EF option for Extra Legs...

There's no mention of Double-Jointed here either, even though DJ seems to be on par with Flexible in terms of arm benefits in the only "crunch" I'm aware of for EF: B390's side-parrying and B391's back-blocking.

I think even with TG's new perk there's a big question why you'd ever take Extra-Flexible as a 2-armed being, if you think about it...

1) it costs 5 per arm: that's 10 points for 2, may as well go the full 15 for DJ and avoid -5 in close quarters, get a +5 talent for Break Free attacks, climbing, escape and seduction

I guess you could consider the effective total cost to be only 5 points subtracting the 5 you save on Constriction Attack.

It seems a bit complicated though. Like would I still save the full 5 points on Constriction Attack if I took Extra Arms with limitations?

Consider:

Flexible Arms (Immediate Preparation Required: 1 minute -30% Maximum Duration: 10 minutes -50%) [2]

By spending 2 points to save 5, I'm basically getting 3 free points, lowering the cost of Constriction Attack to merely 7 points instead of 10.

I think the only way to prevent that kind of abuse would be to require Constriction Attack to take whatever limitations you took on Flexible Arms, that way you're not getting full benefit of the discount by paying fewer points to get the discount.

Plus the -5 should probably come off the base cost of 10 rather than any modified costs, so that Constriction Attack doesn't become free if you have -50% in limitations.