[DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

By an "underdog campaign", I mean a campaign where the PCs are outmatched in combat by much of the opposition. They might be "low-level" PCs willing to take big risks for big rewards, regular PCs taking on an epic dungeon, or just PCs living in a game world where the monsters are really dangerous.

It's a common trope in Dungeon Fantasy games that the PCs take down the opposition in pitched battles, using their amazing abilities to overwhelm them. But in an underdog campaign, the PCs have to think their way through carefully, finding ways to achieve their goals without being able to bring overwhelming force to the table. Think Call of Cthulhu, Odysseus outwitting the Cyclops, and Sam and Frodo creeping through Mordor.

Does GURPS DF offer any unusual opportunities or pitfalls for an underdog campaign? One strength of GURPS DF is definitely that it has well developed rules for non-combat skills, and enough variety in non-combat skills to keep the characters from feeling "samey" out of combat.

Are there PC templates that you would add, remove or change for characters living in a world where PC types are generally outgunned by the monsters around them?

Any other thoughts about the "underdog campaign"?

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

I saw the title and thought this would be a Supers+Furries crossover. I'll try to temper my disappointment.

Personally, not a big fan of the dungeon fantasy genre (though DF is an adequate implementation of it). But I've given thought to some campaigns featuring outclassed PCs, usually involving trying desperately to not be noticed. The most extreme probably being the little-folk campaign idea I keep going back to in my mind, based on The Borrowers or The Littles. Meddle not in the affairs of cats, for they are massive jerks.

If running an underdog game in a straightforward DF milieu, I'd use the 125 point templates from the hirelings book.

Not bird nor plane nor even frog...

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

If the intent was to solve more problems without resorting on combat, the template I would change is the knight. More than any other, it is woefully mediocre when the objective is not "beat the crap out of stuff." He has a few options, but less than any other profession.

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

The problem of being underdogs in GURPS is that the system, being math and physics based, could push you in a corner where you cannot literally touch your opponent (between high active defenses, DR, injury tolerance, high skills and whatnot).

It's a trope that works best a narrative pitch and as it should be focused: yes the PC should be mundane (may more mundane than DF heroes) and maybe they should already know how to work together: a team of trappers able to bring down giant beasts, a posse of bandits specialized in ambushes and stealth etc, so while they are weak if taken as singles they can match superior foes when coordinating.

I think the focus should be to avoid the fights as most as possible: using misdirection, stealth, diplomacy, wit... and and prepare carefully when and how to fight.

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

I have found that a well-designed GURPS battle really benefits from good tactics. I have run a lot of DF, and I generally plan the opposition to be stronger than the PCs, but they somehow almost always manage to win.

Ok, part of this is that I have certain PC-friendly switches turned on (like fodder rules to speed combat), and NPCs rarely have Luck, which can be a bit overpowered, especially at high levels.

But a big part of it is good tactics on the PCs' part, which in the best cases will include stealth to achieve a surprise attack, but lacking such an opportunity, just sticking together, using healing spells wisely (Awaken is a must!), making sure the tank is out front, focusing attacks on important enemies, using Extra Effort judiciously, choosing the right offensive magic, taking advantage of facing to achieve side attacks, using retreats to improve positioning and force enemies to overextend, taking advantage of terrain and other environmental features, etc.

And I'll just opine here that if your picture of what PC underdogs do is sneak around and avoid battles, that could be a fun game but it's not really DF, which is after all supposed to be hack-and-slash fantasy. If I am running something called "DF," my players will expect some action!

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

I could see this working as a sort of reversal of DF - rather than the PC's delving dungeons for treasure, they go to towns besieged by monsters, setting up traps, ambushes, etc to kill off the invading monsters (or you could go full-on reversal, with the PC's as weak monsters protecting their dungeon from powerful delvers).

Alternatively, a [150] DF game could work well. Have the players choose a [125] henchman template, then give them another [25] to spend as they see fit (this should allow the Squire to become competent outside of direct confrontations). You then design dungeons that are meant for standard [250] (or stronger) delvers and see what they players come up with.

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

...It's technically still Dungeon Fantasy if the adventures are managing a dungeon, perhaps centered around an orb-like, immobile quest-giver...

Throw in Realm Management once its out, and you've got the start of a fairly cliche LitRPG. ;)

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

From my experience, "LitRPG" and "underdog" don't really go along. I mean, the main character might technically start out as an underdog, but events will rapidly conspire to change this (be it because the character has a skill/power-stealing/absorbing ability, they get lucky and take out an enemy worth obscene amounts of xp or find a ridiculously-overpowered weapon, they become BFF's with an overpowered dragon, or whatever). Still, a Dungeon Defense game like that in GURPS could be... interesting.

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

It was my impression that all really good RPG campaigns were "underdog" types. What's the point of not overcoming unbelievable odds? Or not facing impossibly mighty opponents?

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

That would be fun to me, require the players to strategize and employ some real teamwork to be successful. I embrace vulnerability in these games. It's what makes the decisions and the risks more enjoyable.

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

I would look to Monster Hunters for monsters. They are made for higher-powered characters with more effective weapons.

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

Fair warning, these type of campaigns can be a bit prone to derail depending on the players.

If the players don't expect to face a "fair challenge" you might find them trying to do everything except for the dangerous stuff. Instead of "Oh, damn there is someone else here, we need to be careful" you can get "Oh, damn there is someone else here, we should bolt out of here!".

Obviously on the flip side, the type of player that will charge the king's guards because 'yolo' would have a 0-day life expectancy in this type of campaign, but then again, those types of player characters rarely live long unless the GM fudges things in the player character's favor.

Anyway, you need to make sure you have players able to handle balancing risk-vs-reward, so they don't either run away all the time, or the party keep getting themselves killed.

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

I'd run the game less as "Dungeon Fantasy" and more as "Monster Slayers". The PC's are a mercenary company that specializes in taking out extremely powerful monsters that start menacing towns. It would have DF and Fantasy style monsters, but play somewhere between Monster Hunters and military play. I'd want to build in a method for recruiting new members of the company to speed up character replacement, and I'd expect the finance and equipping of the group to be a sizeable chunk of play.

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

The Felltower campaign at times seems like that https://dungeonfantastic.blogspot.com/?m=1

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

Yeah, and it has a lot more pc deaths that I would have expected in a DF game.

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

I would argue that "underdogs who succeed through superior tactics" is in many ways the default for Dungeon Fantasy. Typically, it's assumed the PCs will use force concentration (don't split the party!) to overcome superior forces through defeat in detail (an adventure involves a series of separate combat encounters rather than one big fight). If you read professionally published adventures, they tend to be careful to justify this approach, for example using unintelligent monsters, monsters supernaturally bound to specific rooms, monsters who hate each other, and of course the good old "the Big Bad is overconfident". One way to up the challenge is to make the PCs work for it—making them use hit-and-run tactics, force them to finish fights quickly before reinforcements arrive, and so on. Though if the thing you want is for PCs to avoid combat, the thing I'd do is choose monsters with great combat stats but mediocre IQ, Will, and Per.

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

It could definitely work. The theme of underdog stories tend to be one of out-thinking enemies with a healthy dash of luck. So opportunities for stealth, luck and/or impulse points (Pyramid #3/100) would all be the levers you want to work with. You'd want to really brush up on perception checks, and ensure the dungeon has few or no chokepoints that force a fight. Disguise would also be a good aspect to keep in mind, or having a contact on the inside. The goal may not be to kill everyone, it might be to steal the MacGuffin, sabotage a ritual or assassinate one specific person.

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

Underdog is relative, mainline DF characters can very easily be underdogs to appropriately strong or numerous enemies. Situational aspects can also make that so, such as having to defeat a specific enemy or steal/restore/break a specific object where accomplishing that goal is not a pure test of strength or maximizing chances on an attack roll and so forth.

I would really point out the easy trap that many folks who advocate for "underdogs who outsmart the enemies" campaign styles is that in literature relies on the plot armor to give the characters the right opportunities and in gameplay relies on the players to actually be really clever.

I tell you what, being clever after some nachos and beer on a saturday night is hardly easy.

You, as the DM, need to identify not just what provides an unconquerable challenge for the players but also identify the ways that it CAN be overcome and give your players the necessary breadcrumbs and nudges to get them thinking in the right path. It's easy for a DM to come up with enemies with a great-to-perfect defense. It's quite a bit harder to write in the fatal flaw and then let the players SEE that flaw and exploit it. Your buddies aren't Odysseus, or John Wick, or Sherlock Holmes, even if their characters are. It's Bob who rides a bike to work, and Alice who has a kite hobby. You need to make REALLY good use of perception, IQ, and tactics rolls to clue the players in to things that their really smart characters would notice that they don't because they're very normal people.

Also, in the stories you cited as examples, I would point out that while the characters aren't monsters of combat and thus classically "underdogs", they are not underdogs in all areas. Odysseus couldn't go toe-to-toe with the Cyclops, but he was far FAR smarter (mythically so) than the Cyclops, ergo had the "combat" rolls been based off of IQ and mental skills it would have been a rout for poor Cyclops. Sam and Frodo were exceptionally quiet and unnoticeable, Holmes is simply three moves ahead of his opponents and sets up the police to show up before he has to throw any punches. CoC is a bad example because there is no winning there, but that's the point :)

I guess the point is, when running an "underdog" game, identify in which way the characters are actually underdogs and ensure that the encounters and situations are set up so that they CAN be overcome in clever ways, and that the enemies are slouches when it comes to things other than smashing.

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

I think there is an adventure idea in DF 15 Henchmen that might give you an idea.

The adventure starts with the PCs as normal 250 point heroes. Let them battle their way into a dungeon, with the mission of recovering a MacGuffin. But as soon as the MacGuffin is removed from the pedestal it is on, a curse trap goes off, and all PCs are reduced to 125 point (150 point if you are feeling generous, or 75 point if you are not) characters (i.e., using the templates from DF 15). They now need to get out of the Dungeon and back to town, with reduced capabilities.

Re: [DF] The Underdog Campaign?
 

That entirely depends on which ones you read. Ironically, fanfic tends to do better here...

But also this is getting off-topic.