Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

I'm referring to optional rules (or house rules) about adjusting muscle-powered damage, weapon types, armor types and how they interact with each other. Like KYOS for adjusting damage, Armor-Piercing Weapons, Blunt Trauma and Edged Weapons and unofficial solutions like applying AD(0.5) to swords or AD(2) to spears.
It's an old subject and both "is there really a problem?" and "if so, how to solve it?" has been debated over and over in the past but I'm curious to know it stood the test of time.

In my case KYOS has been enough to solve most of what I perceived as problems but I also let Armor-Piercing Weapons to let spears shine and use alternative values for some armor types. Other than that, I indirectly buff unbalanced weapons by allowing cinematic traits like Weapon Fencer and Equilibrist.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

The main problem is that muscle-powered weapons deliver way too much damage compared to firearms.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

wondering which weapons we're comparing here...

The lowest damage gun I can find in basic does 1d basic damage: 278's Derringer available at TL5

To get the same penetrating power with a TL0 short bow (which does thrust) you would need one with a ST 13 draw weight... while the Derringer only takes ST 9 to wield w/0 penalty. An arrow (0.1) weighs twice as much as the derringer ammo (0.05)

Is this incredibly off? BL34 is a char who can lift 272 pounds overhead without needing to use Lifting skill or Extra Effort. I'm not exactly sure what draw weight they could use on a bow but it'd probably be decent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrin...gton_Derringer says 425 feet per second.

https://files.osgnetworks.tv/4/files...ight_chart.jpg shows how FPS can change with draw weight but I'm not sure where to place BL34 on it.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

I'm sure about it and I have an idea about using KYOS pricing scheme and BL progression but Adjusting Swing Damage damage table instead.
However I never had chance to test it because my group prefers cinematic games and KYOS works well for us.

Usually these discussions centers around swing damage of melee weapons vs armor. The edge case would be something like ST 20 man easily getting past heavy plate armor (DR 9) with a sword (3d+3 damage), when it's virtually impossible to do so in reality.
As for muscle-powered ranged weapons, 1d damage is only achieved with bows that requires around ST 14-15 according to the realistic bow examples found on The Deadly Spring.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

If the edge-case is swing-cutting, we should probably take into account LT102's optional rule where cutting converts to crushing unless twice the DR is overcome.

3d+3 can still overcome DR 18 but it'd happen less often.

ST 20 is also pretty impressive, right? That's polar bear tier ST, better than a grizzly.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Yes, that rule was specifically created for the purpose of solving the swing cut supremacy problem. However, there are people who has other preferences and thus uses other optional rules to solve it. In my case I use KYOS, which ends up reducing maximum basic swing damage to 2d+2. Kromm once commented that he prefers to give spears AD(2). Others just shrug and says it's a problem that should be solved from grounds up on GURPS 5th Edition. I created this thread out of curiosity, to know which solutions others adopted.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Spears do big injury like Huge Piercing I think because Impaling has a wider head which means it has less penetration value compared to the same amount of force focused into a narrower thing.

Like if a 1d impaling (like an arrow: x2 injury) were made narrower (normal piercing: x1 injury) then wouldn't you expect there to be an armor divisor of 2 to compensate?

The actual force wouldn't (no extra knockback or blunt trauma) but if we can't explain enhanced penetration w/ that then it'd need to be AD.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

LogST (KYOS), the Deadly Spring, Armor as Dice and Blunt Trauma and Edged Weapons are my preferred set of tweaks, along with Low Tech Armor Design to make anything not easily covered by Low Tech.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Size is not the sole determinant of damage type. Daggers, Rapiers and Heavy Spears, all of them deals impaling damage. If I recall correctly, piercing is for high speed projectiles that would deal crushing damage at slower speeds. As for the Bodkins, which I believe you're referring, I suspect the change in damage type is for the sake of game balance.
Regardless, as I said on the opening post, the merits and problems of each approach has already been extensively discussed in the past. My objective here is not to find the best and most realistic solution, but to see what other GMs seems to prefer.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Not at ST 10. The problem is that the scaling with ST is way off; going from ST 10 to ST 14 should be something like +15-20% armor penetration if you don't also use a heavier weapon, and +30-40% if you double your weapon weight.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

And indeed, that is exactly what happens - see the box "Bodkin Points (TL3)" (B277).

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

ah, should we term them "bodkin spears" then?

now wondering if there are any bodkin swords

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Historically, if you were going to kill a knight in full armor you'd use a long dagger and go for chinks in armor, usually after you'd already knocked him down and sometimes while he was being held down by 2-3 other guys. So you could go All Out Attack (Determined), multiple times if necessary.

However, historically most men in armor were worth more as ransom than they were dead, so if you could overcome them you took them prisoner instead of killing them. Plus, Knights were minor nobles (and most higher Nobles wore full armor suits), and it just wouldn't do for a bunch of peasants to kill a noble.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

The rules for bodkin points aren't terribly realistic (reducing impact area isn't useless, but it does have limited effect because the energy cost of creating the initial hole is larger than the cost of enlarging the hole, and a narrow head only avoids the enlarging part), but there are certainly narrow stabbing weapons. There's a limit to how far you can take that without your weapon just breaking, though.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

As I understand it, armor piercing weapons and hardened armor do exist and matter at low TLs, but are generally below GURPS resolution for those factors. The result is that you either have weapons that are too effective, or leave it out completely. If GURPS was a computer game then having AD or Hardness of 1.2 or 1.45 would be fine since the math is the CPUs problem, but it is not.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

I have my own house rules that changes damage how damage scales and where it starts. This house rule cascades to other rules.

Basically swing damage becomes equal to ST/4 with fractions being +1(.25), +2(.5), or +1d-1(.75). Damage Resistance cost 2cp per level. etc.

This gives you, assuming ST 10 is our base, damage being the square root of basic lift as a ration to ST 10. So someone with ST 20 does twice the amount of damage on average compared to someone with ST 10. ST 20 has a basic lift of 80lbs which is 4 times that of ST 10 of 20lbs, sqrt of 4 is 2. With my formula ST 10 does 2.5, or 2d+2, damage. ST 20 does 5d damage.

This scale continues and does not break. Someone with ST 100 does 10 times the damage of someone with ST 10, ST 1000 is 100 times, etc.

You have to rescale known weapon damages (Firearms), though. Which is easy, just convert dice to whole numbers and addons to decimal like above. A pistol that does 2d+2 damage becomes 2.5, times that by 2.5 and you get 6.25 which becomes 6d+1.

This means that for someone to be able to deal the same damage as that pistol they would need an ST of at least 25 to match it. Normal GURPS damage scale, they would need only ST 16.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Wow. Multiplying firearm damage by 2.5! That would scare my players.

We have used something similar though (leaving firearm damage as is or sometimes using survivable guns):

ST/12=d(th), ST/8=d(sw).

We put together some intermediate values too which I can look up if someone's interested.

EDIT: We also cap realistic human ST at 16.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

I am trying what I call "Know Your Own Conditional Damage"

Base Dam = (ST-10)/3
Base HP = (ST+2)/3

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Why would it scare them? Nothing changes, the ratio of everything remains the same as it is now. The big difference is that players do LESS damage than compared to before.

A pistol that deals 2d+2 (9 average damage) takes 1 or 2 hits to take a ST 10 HP 10 target to less than 0 HP.

ST 10 gives 1d swing damage (3.5 average) and HP 10, so on average it takes 3 hits to reduce to 0 HP.

ST 14 gives 2d swing damage (7 average) and HP 14, so on average it takes 2 hits to reduce to 0 HP.

ST 18 gives 3d swing damage (10.5 average) and HP 18, so on average it takes 2 hits to reduce to 0 HP.

ST 22 gives 4d swing damage (14 average) and HP 22, so on average it takes 2 hits to reduce to 0 HP.


My rules makes it:

A pistol that deals 6d+1 (22 average damage) takes 1 or 2 hits to take a ST 10 HP 25 target to less than 0 HP.

ST 10 gives 2d+2 swing damage (9 average) and HP 25, so on average it takes 3 hits to reduce to 0 HP.

ST 14 gives 3d+2 swing damage (12.5 average) and HP 35, so on average it takes 3 hits to reduce to 0 HP.

ST 18 gives 4d+2 swing damage (16 average) and HP 45, so on average it takes 3 hits to reduce to 0 HP.

ST 22 gives 5d+2 swing damage (19.5 average) and HP 55, so on average it takes 3 hits to reduce to 0 HP.

The amount of hits needed is the same, we just have a finer detail in it. But more importantly, players will not be able to deal the same amount of damage as decent guns with a bow. With my system in a non powers game, ST is limited to 18 at most. Every point of ST means something now too, you get an increase in damage at every level so it is worth it, your HP goes up by 2 or 3 making it harder to take you down, etc.


But, really, firearm damage SHOULD scare people, after all, the point of guns is to kill, and if you can shrug off the damage, or even deal more damage with a melee weapon, then something is off. My fix was not aimed at that but at making damage be in ratio with Basic Lift and all of a sudden, EVERYTHING else gets fixed.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Are you also multiplying HP by 2.5? I didn't see that in your post.

If so, that is a pretty big change. There are more ways to get hurt than muscle-powered weapons and guns.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Yes, as I mentioned, that one rule cascades into others.


Yes, there are, and this rule effects them too. What other ways are you thinking of that reduces HP?

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Falls, poison, vehicle mishap, spells, innate attacks, negative FP (from dozens of sources), fire, frostbite, etc. I'm sure we could generate a long list.

If you remember to multiply all that by 2.5, it should be fine. Especially if you like granularity and multiplication.

We went with a higher ST divisor instead. Tomato, tomato.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Yup, everything gets the 2.5 treatment for the most part. It is so much simpler than it appears to be. Like I mentioned, there is a lot that comes from this one rule, and if you search you can find a thread or two that I made years ago talking about it, but you won't find everything because I keep most of my house rules to myself. I have pages with details on this.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

I like tweaks where swung damage is about 1.5 x thrust damage and ST 2x does twice the thrust damage of ST x, but in my last game I never bothered, it was a 'nerd tweak' to keep my autistic brain happy not something which made the game better for the players. This can work well if you re-scale what 1 HP of damage means.

I think there is a David Pulver article in Pyramid called "Survivable Guns" which gives full-power rifles and up about half damage and double Armour Divisor.

They have too good armour penetration. I would not say they do an unreasonable amount of damage.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

1. Two handed melee weapons wielded two handed enjoy +1/die damage - gives extra kick for strong guys wielding two handers

2. Damage bonus for Karate, Weapon Master etc is players choice 3e Skill/5 or 4e +X / die. - means high skill, weak arms is a more legit choice, and you get a damage bonus starting at putting 1pt in a skill using 3e approach, but also burly storm giant weapon masters with ST 130 don't find the weapon master bonuses lost in the cloud using 4e method.

3. Trained ST applies to melee to, for both damage and parry bonuses

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

I think you missed specifying how thrusting damage works. :)

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Nope, that was on purpose. Can't give away ALL the bells with the whistles. :D

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

I think I smell an upcoming publication...

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

I wish, I am not that much of a writer and this ruleset change is HUGE. I am still going through all of 4e to see what ST touches and thus have to fix (When I remember to do so).

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

My system has a similar problem. It's easy to convert damage to wound potential, but ideally it is all done up front, and there are a lot of places it happens. I've got a super complex fall damage conversion that boils down to "look up fall distance of the SSR table and add X, maximum Y" in 99% of cases (the complexity comes in because it can also handle a mouse made of solid iron falling on Titan).

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Yeah this is pretty much my take on it, ST based damage actually scales with ST based HP reasonably well.

The problem is unless you use a design system to make thicker and thicker armour to counter attacks of increasing ST, DR from armour tends to stay a lot more static and so yep is loses it effectiveness as ST goes up.

I.e if you want DR to keep up with ST based Damage that scales with ST you have to let DR also scale with ST in some way. and the system defaults to all hand held weapon damage scaling with ST but armour DR is pretty much a range of static options in the equipment lists.

I've messed with various house rules down the years but ultimately I use edge protection from LT, allow armour to be tailored to it's wearers ability to wear it and tend to truncate* the range of ST's for humans before they hit the levels of Gorillas and Bears. I personally don't have too much problem in my games.




*this is a specific game choice for several reasons and not a system wide solution.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

I have often used the rule where relative skill level modifies effective ST for using weapons/techniques with that skill (if positive). So a character with ST 10 and Broadsword at (Attribute)+10 counts as having ST 20 for damage purposes, beats, etc.. I also have it gove DR against attacks of that skill equal to relative level (if positive). This makes unarmed combat skills very powerful though, as it is cumulative with the damage bonuses of unarmed combat.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

I guess we could look for other precedents, like the difference in cost between various levels of piercing in Innate Attack, or the Ammo Options enhancement?

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

It's mostly a problem of "It should have an armor divisor, but the divisor should not be 2, it should be something like 1.3".

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

For games that features inhuman ST levels, Better Fantasy Armor can help bridge the gap between damage and DR.

I also recall a thread about "Armor Master" as a defensive counterpart of Weapon Master being created a while ago. Has anybody ever tried something similar in their game? I just had an idea of turning Armor Mastery from DF into a leveled trait, I think it would be good for the Knight-like characters but it makes me worry about DR disparity between the fighters and casters/supports.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

I use Lifting ST for armoires.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Nice!


I've not tried it but it highlights another area where the same issue applies. The system allows a range of ways of increasing handheld damage over and above ST and weapon, weather it's cinematic traits like weapon master, skill bonuses to damage for unarmed skills, combat option like AoA or determined etc.

But on the other side a DR6 breastplate tends to be a DR6 breastplate all the live long day. Armour just acts as an inert wall of protection.

(I think there was 3rd ed. rule that had armour adding to defence more directly "PD" IIRC, but I don't really know 3rd ed.)

I shouldn't worry too much about DR disparity, just have your knights face harder hitting opponents than you supporting cast. Which they likely are doing anyway being knights.

Another possible way to go and to tie armour into a more active role in defence, is to have a kind of "graze" rule that adds to DR rather than reduces damage. For example say you miss an active defence by one MoF, the attack lands but you multiply your DR by 1.5 (rounded down), miss your defence by two MoF your DR by 1.25 (round down).

This would give the armour wearer more of a safety margin if the system is allowing their opponents to blast through their DR.

You could make this an optional rule that costs a perk to access

(this just thought I had in response etc your post this is in no way play tested etc)

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

"PD" was "Passive Defense". Even if you took no Active Defense you could roll agaisnt your Passive Defense to stop an attack. With PD3 or 4 from a shield and another 3 or 4 from armor (even without magic) it wasn't a huge chcne but it ws better than nothing.

The important bit was that when you did take an Active Defense you added your PD to your total defense and rolled v. that. There was no "add" to your Parry in the basic calculations so if you had Broadsword-16 and Combat Reflexes your total Parry was still only 9 or less if you had no armor or shield. With armor and shield you could easily hit 15 or less.

You will note from the above example that with combat normalized for users of both armor and shields, combat without these aids worked very, very poorly. 3e sprouted a lot of kludges over the years trying to mitigate these problems but gained more problems with the solutions. 4e came as close to jettisoning the concept of PD as it could retaining only DB you gain from a shield or magic.

If you wonder what you were suppsed to viaulize PD doing that was asomehat mysterious. When you got to UT it actually was Deflector Shields granting you or your spaceship a bonus to all active Defenses.

I don't miss PD and I doubt many others do either. Not having to deal with PD is a good reason to not go back to 3e.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

One of my biggest issues with PD was that it could, and often did, vary by hit location, so your chances of parrying or dodging a blow had to be adjusted after the hit location was rolled. This slowed things down and added another layer of calculation to combat.

Then there were things like "how much DR does armour need for it to give PD vs bullets?". Yep, better without it.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

It was a bit shaky, yes. Fencing combat worked very well, a bit too well.

4e combat works fine for unarmoured people with knives. Our information about people spending hours at a time fighting in underground passages wearing heavy armour is a bit limited.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Been looking at 3e Swashbuclers lately and I find that even with the Fencing Parry calculated from2/3rds skill rather than 1/2 I still wanted the PD1 from a Basket Hilt and the additional PD 1 from a leather doublet to go along with the +1 or +2 from Body Language Skill. Oh, and since we're talking about Thrustign attacks I could use the Dodge bonus from Boxing (though I might have to pay a UB for knowing Boxing).

As I tried to indicate 3e tended to accumulate kludges to try and deal with fighting without armor and shield.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

Was dodge still Half DX +3?

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

I don't think Dodge is that now. At least in RAW.

Dodge was Basic Speed + PD + Combat Reflexes and maybe Enhanced Dodge. that +3 you're so used to is the repalcement for PD.

Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?
 

good point!

And yes sorry Sp+3