Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Sorcery is built by RAW, and a cosmic MA is expensive. The designers feared that sort of universal toolbox, and for a reason. (See the complaints upthread about this or that magic system upstaging niche templates.) But that factor of 10x may be a bit much. I've never had anyone take an MA in a game, nor wanted to, myself, because they're just so expensive. 10x means you could stack 46 abilities in an AA group before it caught up to that price. Flexibility has value, but it also has diminishing returns.

Which is entirely an intentional design feature. RPM was made for Monster Hunters. And as much as people fell in love with it and threw it into the dungeon crawls or supers games, it was meant for a setting where magic is not well known, and where the monsters themselves are also not well known. Investigation and research are meant to be an important part of the game, not just kicking down the door and cutting loose. And all the classes are supposed to benefit from prep time, learning about strengths and weaknesses of their enemy and equipping themselves to cope with them, whether that's silver and holy water or the villain's old favorite Raggedy Ann doll, or knowing that the creepers sleep for four hours before dawn, so the infiltrator can sneak in at 4am rather than midnight, when they're fully alert. Of the MH templates, the RPM mage suffers the most from _lacking_ preparation, especially if they're not Adept.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Modular Abilities are best when limited. For example, I can take Modular Abilities 6/6 (Slotted Cosmic Powers; Magical, -10%; Trait-Limited, Languages Only, -50%) [30] and have perfect comprehension in any two languages with just a couple of seconds of concentration. Where MA become painfully expensive is if they are physical and/or universal.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

I gotta be honest, one of my favorite interpretations of magic as powers is from supers. I like their "mystic" supermage template and I really like the grimoire base improvisor.

Lower the number of slots for the grimoire improvisor to 1 and add a few more limitations that state any ability purchased with that advantage must have a level of Immediate Preparation Required to represent needing to perform a magic ritual and you've got someone who can hit the books to find that trick they need for this story and it's reasonably cheap for that much flexibility.

then give them a useful amount of TK and a couple of signature spells as abilities and you've got Dresden, Willow, any witch from Supernatural or Vampire Diaries Ever, etc. Give them more stuff off the supermage mystic template and power up the cp available in their grimoire and you've got any comic book mage.

It's more expensive than what you can do with technology via mundane only point expenditures but it's balanced against other powers and powers are always more expensive then mundane competency, which is why I always recommend making the cp pools for superpowers a separate from the cp pools for mundane traits.

But I guess there is a question of how you define "best." For it's CP cost I've seen RPM outperform every single other system in gurps by a huge margin. I've also seen it break multiple games, including monster hunter games for which it was designed, with it's overwhelming versatility and exponential power curve. To me this doesn't make it the best system because I define "best" as the system that most consistently delivers the best play experience. And whether it's on the character creation front, the character growth through CP expenditure feeling fair front, or the in game use front, I find Powers to be by far the most robust, well balanced, versatile and flexible, system for supernatural abilities of any color in gurps.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

if only it was x10, it'd be better. Truly cosmic modular abilities is x20, because having access to both physical and mental traits is +100%. I see modular abilities used most often to buy skills, and occasionally languages.

I'm reading those rules more carefully (I usually use the equivalent of "the stuff of raw magic" with realm magic). Realm magic without FP is just turning on all of the skill-based costs for magic, not letting them cast giant spells for free. That lessens how powerful I thought it was.

And I'm looking at the ultimate cost of the realms, and it may be a touch high. Actually, its less of the cost of the realms being too high and more of that for advantages that cost that much I'd have expected better discounts on casting times, energy costs, and skill penalties.

Whether nor not Magic Resistance is appropriate with a given magic system is an interesting question. Magic resistance is more common on Monster Hunter templates than DF ones, with the DF wizard lacking it as an option in his advantage list, and the witch having it. I do think that magic resistance is more suited for spell-based magic than advantage based.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

This is one of my favorite tweaks to RPM. I've seen it in a number of places, and I've never run a solid game with it, but it looks really solid.




A lot of mages in fiction really don't have the flexibility we've come to expect out of an RPG magic system, and that's often where magic as powers shines

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

The amount of magic in TV that really boils down to "TK and sometimes they will do a plot relevant ritual" which could literally be like... TK and Wild Talent (Ability Use, abilities only, immediate preparation required [for the ritual], requires reference materials for appropriate ritual) is extremely high. Also, having played with that in game it feels way better in play than it looks on paper. Throw on one or two more tricks and some ESP and you really feel like a witch or magician. Especially if you also use Power Stunts and give them some ER for stunting.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

The Magical Powers Talent from Fantasy (p. 159) pretty much covers most TV mages. For example, you could have TK 20 (Magical, -10%) [90] as the base ability and have any number of Afflictions as Alternative Abilities (all Afflictions are legal abilities) and, if you have a campaign with the Temporary Enhancements and Using Abilities at a Default optional rules, you could improvise any Affliction. A healing spell might be Affliction (Advantage, Regeneration, Fast, +500%; Malediction 1, +100%; Magical, -10%) [69], which would 14 CP as an alternative ability. An agony spell might be Affliction (Agony, +100%; Cone, 25 yards, +290%; Malediction 2, +150%; Magical, -10%; Selective Area, +20%) [65], which would be 13 CP as an alternative ability. It would be a bit like Sorcery, though it would require some flexibility of thought.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Yeah. I've done that in a one shot and it worked beautifully. We had each mage pick a theme for their magic and add appropriate modifiers to their TK, for example one of them was a plant mage and his TK had animation and plants only on it. Then any abilities they wanted to do off of them had to fit the theme somehow.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

I'd allow many painkillers to still work - their mechanism of pain reduction is separate from their toxicity, so in non-toxic doses they'd pass.

The thing is, if any potentially toxic substance in any quantity is defeated in all ways, the character dies because oxygen is toxic, water is toxic, etc.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

You might want to make the cap of 10 a function of Magery? That lets mighty magicians do more with improvisation than apprentices.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

[QUOTE=Taneli;2347551]

• Instead of gathering for energy, you roll casting once, and you take a penalty to your casting skill equal to the final energy cost, divided by 10 and rounded down.

Another idea: D&D-style fantasy magic systems are good for combat, but don't deal with the idea of slow ritual magic, requiring lots of props, aka "ceremonial" casting. There's a way to provide that with this RPM variant.

For ceremonial casting, you revert to gathering energy, with one gathering roll every five minutes (or even longer without Ritual Adept). This makes for long ceremonies, with plenty of time for enemies to interfere. It might even allow casting spells that aren't known or in an available source: this could be the equivalent of a prototype.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

I'm not sure where on p111 you are talking about, but p72 says "often" which is actually kind of backwards with how common magic is its own anti power. Plus Resistant doesn't cover nearly as many threats as Static, so I don't think it should be anywhere as costly as it (since Static already takes that enhancement to allow friendly spells).

Unless your point is that Immunity doesn't affect friendly spells and you only can't turn it off for hazardous spells. Then I apologize for making that assumption.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Immunity (Magic) effects all magic.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

That seems pretty bad for 30pts (again, compare Static) and doesn't even make sense with the rules. Resistant blatantly only affects certain things, namely "noxious effects within a particular catgeory" and to resist those attacks. As recent thread has shown me, helpful spells don't have the ability to be resisted and don't have the modifiers that would let Resistant stop non-resistable effects.

On that note, as pointed above, RPM is likely the strongest magical system (that or maybe syntactic verb/noun magic without FP costs) largely for being able to get around many of the antimagic problems that exist due to sheer versatility in what you can do. Many forms of anitmagic only work against certain ways a spell is cast on something with Static and Mana Dampener being the best "stop all angles" approaches.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Immunity works against effects of that type that do not allow for Resistance rolls (for example, Cyanide for Poisons and Malaria for Disease), so Immunity (Magic) works against all magical effects that target a character, whether they are resisted or not (unless DR or Protect Sense provides protection). There are diseases and poisons that potentially have beneficial symptoms (for example, a Fatigue Attack with Contact Agent could give Regeneration), but Immunity (Disease) or Immunity (Poison) would also prevent them from working.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

It only works against very specific effects that don't allow Resistance rolls and even tells you them in Basic. Further;

Noxious Effects only. If a "poison" gave High Pain Threshold and did 3d fat damage, you'd ignore the damage. And if we assume the rules work the same for any power as it does the "mundane" powerset, Immunity to Metabolic Hazards is still better than Immunity to Magic (or psionics, super, etc). If a character was untouchable by Magic, that character should get the far superior defenses Static gives with the downsides of not being able to be buffed, healed, etc by Magic. (It's also pretty antagonistic to have an advantage on your sheet "protect" you from beneficial effects when that isn't written out plainly).

On topic, I also like "Magic as TL" where the 'tech' of the setting is actually just magic being commonplace. "Magic as Bang!" is a pretty fun subtle system where you pick a wildcard skill and treat the effects as magic, including things like impulse points the bang skill gives.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Anyone know why Magic Resistance does such an extreme 'no spells at all' even at level 1, instead of just acting like a double-edged sword and penalizing?

Kind of like how Mind Shield works if you take the PP15 "Feedback" limitaiton. A soft cap.

Resistant gives you bonuses to Resistance Rolls when you get them, while Immunity lets you automatically pass those rolls when you get them.

You don't get Resistance Rolls at all against spells not listed as "Resistable", and even with those, you don't get Resistance Rolls if they critically succeed.

That's where Magic Resistance seriously pulls ahead of Resitant to Magic / Immunity to Magic, because it can target the basic skill roll and cause failure, regardless of whether the outcome is resistible.

By dropping skill below 16 or 15 you remove 6/5 as crit success results, so you only need to worry about the rarer 4/3 results.

Also useful in creating more crit fails: especially in wild mana.

I don't think lowering effective skill past 3 prevents attempts (since you may not know the penalties a applying to you when attempting it) but if it doesn't, it probably shouldn't be a crit success anymore, or even a success at all (like firing a skill 20 gun with -100 range modifiers)

Static (Magic) is probably cheaper than the amount of Magic Resistance it'd take to adequatly lower the skill 99 of some ubermage. Mana Damper can sometimes compete but I don't think Static (Magic) can be counteracted by Mana Enhancer, that's in it's favor.

Why not, if they're drugs with a resistance roll? If there's no resistance roll to 1-up mushrooms it would ignore resistant/immune though.

To make resistant optional (temporarily take off to try and fail rolls) you could make it switchable, usually on, "costs fatigue", try to "power block" with it and fail, etc...

Magic Susceptibility OTOH would make it very each to practice casting spells on yourself :)

T63 sets it at +100 like damper/enhancer for mages, just like P59 set Discriminatory for them as same value as B67 "Improved" for MR.

Though it's +10% for non-mages so maybe you mean that

P111 is new limitations, were you thinking of P131?

Resistant isn't a listed example there if that's what you mean?

"often the case" sounds like there could be exceptions...

and P72 mentions "a power" providing protection against it's source should be forbidden, but that wouldn't prevent you from having "Immunity to Magic (Psionic Telepathy -10%)" as 1 power and a separate batch of magical powers.

M12 similarly talks about powers protecting against their source, so Immune to Magic as a wild advantage (not a power, no source) would not clash with having Possession (Magical -10%) or similar.

The interesting thing about magic is also that when you can resist, you can voluntarily waive resistance rolls, so you could take the +8 resistance and opt to waive it in cases where you trust the caster. I just don't know if the auto-success version is waivable in that way.

P72 "Resistant and Immunity only help against threats that offer resistance rolls"

Worth wondering if something "offers a resistance roll" in the situation of "I'm consenting to the spell".

Are we told somewhere about this explicitly for cyanide?

B439 makes it sound like a "direct physical attack" (ie Toxic Attack) since it would lack the "Resistible" limitation.

This can be respiratory, matching "Innate Attacks with these modifiers" on B80.

We're told it doesn't apply where DR does, but since respiratory ignores DR that's no help... "do not have any any of the modifiers given above" and so forth.

I guess maybe I'm wondering what the point is of DR (poison only, hardened) would be if ITDR does that, but I guess it would still be "forms of poison that don't ignore DR".

Contact agents having a 15 minute delay is something I'd have trouble putting in Innate Attack terms... I guess it's like Onset / Exposure Time

Maybe "Resistible on a HT-20 roll" would be like a -0% limitation and what things like this effectively are? It's just a strange jump to go from Resistant to Poisons +8 doing nothing (nor a Power Block doing +16) to the next step being a guarantee.

Sort of like how P118 "Instant-Death Attacks" treats an HT-18 affliction as "instantly kill anyone with HT 20 or less" even though an effective HT of 2 is actually still supposed to let you have a resistance roll.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

No, I meant what I wrote, but I didn't think to check Thaumatology to see if it suggested a different pricing from the earlier Powers. Having had it pointed out to me, I agree that the latter cost makes much more sense, as +10% on such a cheap (at base cost) advantage is almost certainly way too good.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

I do get the first part, but the second seems... wrong? I mean it likely is RAW, but it feels weird that criticals can overcome immunity. Then again, this is Magic (the book and its system) we are talking about...

But yes, it isn't strictly better, you're write.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

After thinking this over for a while, and in answer to the original question, I think that it's clear that the "best" magic system varies considerably by the particular setting being used. For myself, my preferred magic systems include (in no particular order):

Sorcery - perhaps the best implementation of "magic as powers", I think. Personally, I think that Divine Favor can be considered a variation of this, or vice versa, but that's just a matter of taste I think.

Psionic Powers - treated as magic.

Path/Book Magic - there are some parts that didn't make a good transition from 3E to 4E and so I think should be adjusted, but it's still a wonderfully flavorful system.

Vanilla Magic - along with many of the variations, such as Threshold-Limited, Clerical, altered colleges, and so on.

But right now, my fantasy campaign under construction is looking to work with a combination of spirits and similar entities, the "Technicians of the Sacred" and similar ideas from Low-Tech Companion 1, and the ideas behind the Mystic (Practitioner) template in GURPS Horror or even the Mystic (Charlatan) template. So, kind of a "magic as powers" system, I guess, but also "magic as regular skills".

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

That's my aim with my current spell system. Magic as Powers with each power (that uses any rolls) being attached to a skill that already exists. This gives a neat 'upgrade' feel to regular skills when you start using magic. That and the myriad of accessory perks that turn a skill into a 'tools-less' spell. It combines both the feel of having to study to be a mage (gotta learn your skills!) and the variability to let a mage be any role instead of the normally generalist that a lot of magic systems tend to push.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Agreed.

I've used the core magic system quite a bit and it works well, is fun to play and lets the players feel like wizards.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

I used it for well over a decade. While I agree it is fun to play and let's you feel like a wizard, it also generally feels like putting on god mode in video games, both as a player and as a GM.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

How is the core magical system god mode? I can get much better results from RPM.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

I mean, while that is true, I don't think it counters the point that core magic system can feel like god mode. One of the first games I ever played in GURPS was a 200 cp post-vampire-apocalypse tl6+2 adventure game. My character was the only wizard. I started with a 14 IQ, magery 3, a few extra FP, fit, breath control, and 45 cp in spells. I was the only character who survived the first arch of the game where things went horribly wrong, and I survived by having wildly more options and answers than anyone else.

I'd bought another 15 spells or so during that arch, and then the GM gave a point dump at the end of the arch so I bought another 5 magery all gadget limited so that my skill levels with Hard spells would be good enough to have notable cost reductions. From that point on I had at least partial solutions to any problem the GM could throw at us, and it only got worse as sessions past and I wracked up more points to spend on new spells.

Eventually I just retired the dude because he was so powerful that solving the worlds problems by building vampire proofed cities and rebuilding civilization was his priority instead of adventuring. And the GM, who had been a really great sport, breathed a sigh of relief.

I mean, I can hit god mode harder with RPM. But it's also a lot messier getting there and usually ends up with more rules arguments, and it also only lasts until the GM decides he doesn't feel those spells should work that way anymore.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

From what I've put together RPM is both more annoying and more powerful than Magic, which are my main two complaints about Magic. If anything, what you're saying only turns me off of RPM more.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

For what it is worth a LOT of how things are handled by the GM will also determine how strong or weak GURPS MAGIC can be for a given campaign. Having run GURPS since 1986, I've evolved a few foundational behaviors or bedrocks for my campaigns that I don't deviate from too often. My number 1 rule for GURPS MAGIC is that players may only place 1 character point per game run in any SKILL (be it magic or otherwise). I also require that down time pass for when a teacher teaches new spells or a student learns from a book. Players learn very early on just how precious a spell can be. In addition, alternative methods of instilling skills is not a "commonplace type of thing".

Me, I prefer GURPS MAGIC over any of the other possibilities for magic in the game. Having used it for all these decades, I dare say that if I were at a convention and had to do a pick up game on the spot, that I could run just about anything with GURPS MAGIC without any problem.

Magery as an advantage may not be improved beyond what you start the campaign with short of Divine intervention or Greater Wishes - both of which are in short supply. Magery 4 has been permitted in a GURPS MAGIC campaign exactly ONCE - and the player's comment of "What are Magery 4 only spells" to which I said "There are none, unless I actively create a few".

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

I've found RPM quite nice in play without Adept (or at least highly restricting the option for time reducing Adept). Yes, it give the magician lots of options, but they require some planning.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

The problem with these solutions is that it's just telling the players to start with an abundance of points in spells and Magery because they can't get it later (or that easily), which is where the problem already is.

I think I can agree with this (personally, I have an easier time with Magic as Powers).

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Honestly, the simplest magical system is probably Magic as Powers when the GM is willing to do the heavy lifting of designing abilities.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Just an observation - and I'll note that it is largely a function of "preference" here...

Creating a framework in which the GM can create new spells or let his player create new spells is nothing new. If you're familiar with HARN MAGIC, then you will know they have had that capability for YEARS before GURPS ever started to experiment with alternatives to GURPS MAGIC.

Do you want to know why I never went over to that kind of game system for magic?

You're at the table with players, and they went in a direction you didn't plan on. Rather than railroad them with forcing them to go the way you're prepared to go, you wing it. Then they run into a random encounter with a mage of some sort.

QUICK! List all of the spells this Mage has! Oh wait, No two spells are the same nor have the same effects because each spell is truly individual. Well, there goes the ability to wing it unless you pre-create your mages in advance. That's fine, but sometimes what you spend 2000 hours creating only to use 10% of - makes you realize that you have a better use for the other 90% of the 2000 hours you spent - could have been directed at something else.

Then comes the persnickety mathematical precision necessary to describe the spell as an advantage - not as if GURPS doesn't have a plethora of possible ways to build any given advantage, and some are not so readily apparent as to how they're used! That's just for Spells as Advantages. Using any of the other magic systems - I find is VERY open to abuse, allowing for things undreamed of in GURPS MAGIC. Be aware, I am only TOO aware that my preferences are not universal nor always shared by anyone else. I'm GLAD that GURPS VOODOO came out, but saw issues with that. I own copies of other game systems such as PENDRAGON, Chivalry and Sorcery (every edition that ever came out including the 5th edition). I owned copies of TFT (The Fantasy TRIP) WIZARD and even SPI's DRAGON QUEST. If you want to have some fun - take a peek at EDEN STUDIO's WITCHCRAFT/ARMAGEDDON series of books, and see how the Path Magic SHOULD Have been done with GURPS VOODOO (Incidentally, the same author who gave us GURPS VOODOO also gave us WITCHCRAFT and ARMAGEDDON). Sadly? Despite what we have with GURPS CHARACTERS and GURPS THAUMATOLOGY, there is no way to actively and accurately - simulate the magic system of EDEN STUDIO despite its relative simplicity!

Well - that's my take on games that give you the ability to create customized spells where no two characters create the exact same spells. It is great if you like to do that level of customization, but it can interfere with the ability to throw in spur of the moment characterizations.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Of course "best" is subjective. For me, I've used GURPS Magic for home games, online games, and at gaming conventions. Myself and six other GMs ran a continuing fantasy campaign at Strategicon Conventions (OrcCon, Gamex, Gateway) using spells from GURPS Basic Set, which uses the same system as GURPS Magic. It worked quite well in all of them.

That said, I have played with variations.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

I wing this kind of thing all the time, I'm not sure what problem you're talking about.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

My preferences are Magic as Powers for non-flexible magic (though using Divine Favor as a core for improvising has its merits) and Realm Magic for flexible magic — although the very first thing I do with it is to throw out the energy costs for nearly everything; and I've got a half-dozen house rules that I routinely apply to it. So as written, I wouldn't call it “the best” per se; I just like the principles on which it's built, even if they were poorly executed.

I'm also fond of Path/Book Magic when dealing with “subtle magic” settings.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

That sounds intriguing. Can I see them?

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

I would also like a look.

Edit: Thank'ee sai.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

I chime in only to say "yes, this." I find Divine Favor produces the best feeling clerical/supplication-based results and emergent behavior of any game I've ever played. My warrior-saint Cadmus was the most fun character of that type I've ever played.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Tell you what - quick, whip up a reasonable NPC mage using the magic system of choice, with all the spells ready to roll for interactions with the player characters.

You decide the parameters of the NPC so this is fair to you. If you want, open up a new thread. Maybe the example you give me will inspire me to use it in my upcoming SECRETS OF NEW ORLEANS Fantasy Grounds campaign set in 1920, but with the Call of Cthulhu material excised out and a different horror campaign put in its place (If you know Eden Studios WITCHCRAFT game system, it will be the Combine vs all mages and all other monsters, with the mages usually avoiding the monsters etc). Set in 1920's - the player character is unaware of what magic is out there.

So, go to town with your spur of the moment mage using the magic system of choice. ;)

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

It is easy enough for systems like RPM. A practitioner in RPM could have IQ 12 [40], Magery 6 [65], Modular Abilities 24 (Amulet of Knowedge; Slotted Cosmic Powers; Magical, -10%; Protected Amulet, -35%; Trait-Limited, Magical Paths, -30%) [32], Modular Abilities (Ring of Mastery; Cosmic Powers; Magical, -10%; Protected Amulet, -35%; Trait-Limited, Ritual Mastery, -50%) [2], and Thaumotology (VH) IQ+6 [32]-18. For 171 CP, you could have a quite effective NPC.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

He's asking for the charm loadout of this NPC when you fight him. What does he have?

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

With 24 available charms? He would have the following charms (since he would have an effective skill of 20):

Air Jet
Alertness
Amplify Injury
Death Touch
Duplicate Object
False Memory
Fireball
Glamor Glamour
Global Positioning Sorcery
Haste
Hinder
Hush
Light
Lockpick
Minor Healing
Off the Grid
Pentagram Trap
Project Voice
Rain of Fire
Resist Magic
Silence
Terrify
Truthteller
Weaken Blood

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Ok, now the question that comes to mind - how quickly were you able to whip that NPC up? Looking up WHICH spells the NPC gets would work out to be the same either way (your favorite magic system vs GURPS MAGIC). On the flip side however - your NPC has 20's in all his skills with Magic?

If you're able to bring that NPC's basic stats into play without a lot of mental gymnastics - great. But I noted all of those "modifiers" to the basic advantages/powers and thought to myself "this is NOT simple to implement on the spur of the moment without investing a LOT of time knowing all of the possible modifiers you can use with GURPS advantaegs and powers etc. "

Now for me? Magery 0, IQ 11 - 6 spells from Healing, 4 spells from Necromancer, nothing over skill 14 because he's well trained. Which 10 spells? That I'd have to take some time for looking up, but if I give the mage Diagnosis, I suspect I can give him basic healing spells, a mandatory lend energy spell, and that's the gist of it. But more importantly, I don't have to do a lot of work either way. IQ is treated as an 11, and only 1 point each into spells leaves him at best, Skill 9. Anything at 14 is going to be the result of a LOT of effort on that mage's part. The mindset right off the bat is respecting anyone who casts spells relatively effortlessly, and perhaps feeling inferior if someone knows 30 spells at high levels of competence.

He's not min/maxed - but the mindset suggests itself once you begin to realize just how difficult magic casting is for him, and the fact that a lot of the really GOOD tactical spells are beyond his reach.

In the end? I need only work out the stats, and the general thrust of the character overall - I don't need to know what percentage discount something gets, nor that this character has a skill 20 in ALL of his spell casting. Any GM can throw perfect enemies at the player characters because the GM has unlimited GOD like powers in running his campaign. The interesting NPCs are those who are flawed, good in some things, not so good in others, and always if not the equal of the PC's, then less than in their capabilities.

So - what you use for your campaign works for you, but it would not work so well for me. Why? Unless I miss my guess, the 20 "Effects" or "Charms" are but a small sample of the mage's abilities. The NPC mage can improvise with the best of them, and will be able to craft ANY charm - am I right?

I don't want nor need to have a super mage for my campaigns. I don't want to spend another 20 hours detailing the spells outright. If there were a book of 800 spells for use in the game - GREAT. If I could for instance, make use of the curse from DRAGON QUEST (where you write the name of the Demon who will effect the curse) on a parchment, and once your intended victim accepts that paper, the curse is active. The person can still kill the demon, but after 100 days, the demon will regain his body and be able to stalk his intended victim. Can you actively create that spell for use with your game system? Quite likely - or something akin to it. Or - I can treat it as a Magery 3 spell that requires a few pre-requisites, require that the energy spent on the script of paper be equal to some amount of energy I think is appropriate - and vioila - spell done.

All GMs have their own ways of doing things. That there is a book out on the different game styles and different game goals is proof that people will find something they like and stick with it.

Now - in response to the person who wondered what the rub was...

Ever notice how min/maxed mages who have access to ALL possible magics become the same "cookie" from the same cookie cutter? **shrug**

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Ahh, that was you who said those things ... Some good advice. I remembered it, just not where it came from.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

The idea that an IQ 11 and Magery 0 magician would manifest 10 spells at 14 is quite inefficient. The character would be much better at IQ 14, as the total cost of the build would be reduced from 185 CP to 125 CP, and the overall character would be better. In fact, you could give them IQ 14 and Magery 2 and end up only spending a total of 105 CP. With the 80 CP saved, you could make a more well-rounded character, giving them DX 12, HT 12, and 20 CP in additional skills.

A mage really does need a minimum IQ 12 to be effective when using IQ-based magical systems. In fact, I would argue that Magery should not exceed (IQ-12) in any system where Magery gives a bonus to skills (or should not exceed IQ in systems where Magery limits skill levels, like RPM). If you want lower IQ magicians, I would suggest basing magic on something else than IQ (as suggested in Thaumatology).

For example, HT-based standard magical systems would be quite fun (especially since FP fuels their spells). With such a system, characters should have HT 12 to manifest Magery 0, HT 13 for Magery 1, HT 14 for Magery 3, etc.. It would avoid having every magician being a genius, though it would mean that every magician would overall possess great physical health. It would also allow animals, plants, and even objects to have their own instinctive magics.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

RPM scaling with mundane technology is a characteristic I like in that system but Sorcery is not that bad in comparison as Basic Magic would be.
The thing with magic is that almost by definition it disregard natural laws of the universe. So instead of trying to compete with technology by increasing damage or range, magic should exploit its abnormality.
For example, instead of spending a lot of points in a fireball that deals high damage at good range, you could add Incendiary 3 (+130%) or Incendiary 4 (+340%) so even a fireball with basic damage of 1d or 2d could set a power armor on fire, causing significant damage and stress to the soft flesh inside it. Making an ultratech composite material catch fire is not realistic, but by channeling the essence of fire a mage can do it. There's other alternatives as well: Innate Attack with Malediction like Spontaneous Combustion from Psionic Powers ignores DR, and Affliction (Agony) with Malediction can also ignore DR and incapacitate a foe without killing them. Ultimately, Cosmic, Irresistible Attack (+300%) quadruples the cost of IA but it's as efficient against a TL0 tribesman with no armor as it is to a TL12 Space Commando with Power Armor.
As for defenses, the same idea applies. DR with high levels or Hardened are exclusive to magic, and it stacks with mundane armor. You could also get Obscure (Anti-targeting) or Defense Bonus to make you hard to hit in the first place, or buff yourself with Injury Tolerance to reduce injuries.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Did you know that there's a Meta-Spell College spell called "Penetrating spell" (Magic p.123) that will let you throw your Fireball right through that powered armor?

Sometimes you don't need to modify things you just need to do a little more work with what's already there.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

You'd likely need the "Ignore DR" effect, which costs 10 FP on top of the FP cost of the damaging spell you're going to cast. Then you'd also have to spend several seconds casting them one after the other in order to cast. Unless you have a lot of FP to burn and high enough skill level to reduce the spell casting time*, you're not going to get another chance if you miss.
With Sorcery the IA would cost more, but it takes only a second to cast and 1 FP (or less if using alternative rituals).
You could modify the Penetrating Spell spell by reducing FP cost and/or time to cast, or perhaps using Adjustable Spells to apply AD/Malediction directly on the damaging spell, but either way you'd already breaking the premise of 'not modifying anything'.

*You could say there's some sort of UT mana battery that can provide the mage with hundreds of FP and/or magic amplifiers that grants many levels of Magery, but it would open another can of worms by breaking the "economics" of Magic. Again, you could prohibit some spells and adjust others, but that would be an even larger project.

Edit: By the way, my disinterest for Basic Magic stems from other reasons, not it's effectiveness. Technically you could easily compete with UT soldiers by casting Reverse Missile.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Sorcery/Powers: means I don't have to memorize a whole 'nother system. Plus "limited innate powers" tends to be how I picture my ideal magics anyway.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

I could be using Telecast and the poor slob would never see it coming, 20 FP would be plenty.

Of course, if I did want a UT power source I could use the Cube of Power whcih is in Magic items 3. One of my characters in a 3e campaign designed and built the first one. He only did that because he was going out of range or Merlin-1's industrial enchantment lines and needed more energy than they could handle anyway. If you wondered why the Vube delivered exactly 1772 energy pts you could reverse engineer my character's level of Magery and HT.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

To be fair, this is basically how I'd describe any magic system in GURPS, or even roleplaying in general.

Hostile wizard; Fire & Ice themed. Flight (Nuisance Effect: Loud, Max Height 5ft) for 'jet-like' bursts of flame, Ice Spikes 2d (impaling, 20/100range, Acc 3, Costs 1FP/min), Steam Cloud: Obscure 10 (Costs 1fp/use, Only self, Nuisance Effect: Loud), wizard has HT12 and ER2, Magery 1, 11 attributes otherwise, Combat Reflexes, enchanted Robe with DR3 EDIT: I generally assume 14 skill for combatants unless I want it higher and 12 skill for regular skills (thus Flight-12 and IA-14)

Friendly Wizard; Payload 5 (Dimensional), Ally: Lightning Elemental (3d) Summonable Ally that is a little too trigger happy, Merchant-12, Hedgewitchery (1cp that can be in anything at any point in time, mostly used for accessory perks or to lessen defaults), IQ13

I don't need to look up points, I can just remember what things do exist in gurps and more accurately what doesn't. It also took me longer to right that up than come up with it. Plus, as is said here, this really works with psionics, supers, druids, etc;

If I want magic to cost FP, that's a modifier. If I want magic to require training, that's a setting switch. I already have to learn one complicated power system that functions within the rules of everyone else, so this is a huge upside to me.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

It's also probably the most versatile in terms of creating different types or genres of magic for different types of games. Whatever you want magic to be in your game it can do, as long as the Gm is willing to do a lot of heavy lifting on the front of designing not just the abilities but also what optional rules they're going to use and what methodology they're going to use for designing abilities.

Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 

Of course, as the Temporary Enhancements and Using Abilities at a Default rules are generally need for Magic as Powers to work. Of course, designing a set of abilities can be an annoying amount of work, but that is the utility of having leveled traits. For example, you could have a magical system with ten foci, ten abilities per focus, and ten levels per ability, allowing for one thousand steps of potential advancement.