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-   -   What are the best magical systems in GURPS? (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=170497)

maximara 10-07-2020 07:43 AM
Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth (Post 2347304)
So...do any of those things address the claim that you can have a multi-dose talisman?

I'm not questioning the effect of multiple paut doses. I'm questioning the proposition that a single charm can ever, under any circumstances, deliver multiple doses.

The only basis that seems to have been given so far for that claim is the existence of the option to prepare multiple doses of an elixer.
Actually it comes from the fact that the "multiple doses of the same elixir will be wasted" rule in Magic (p 220) does not apply to Paut per GURPS Thaumatology p. 24 which also states you can down the elixir at a rate of 1 dose per round. So Merlin-1 could have a mage Jolt cola but it is going to cost said mage $1,740 for a 12 oz can. And if he wants it in Talisman form that is going to cost $17,400 for a 12 energy (dose) Paut Talisman.

However, there is another limitation per the RAW: GURPS Magic p. 220 states that once used a Talisman goes dormant. This effectively means a Paut Talisman is a Powerstone with the 'can only be used once in a particular time period based on mana level' quirk.

So if for some silly reason you use one energy (dose) of your 20 energy (dose) Paut Talisman you will have to wait until it comes out of dormancy to use it again.

I have updated the Alchemic Talisman section in the GURPSwiki on Paut to reflect this.

ericthered 10-07-2020 08:25 AM
Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon (Post 2347270)
My current (And now-preferred) magic style is a "magic as powers" method based heavily on Divine Favor.

Basically, every spell college (Such as Lightning, Pain, Fire, Movement, etc) has its own power modifier, often with some optional traits that an individual practitioner can choose (One character took "Dramatic" with her lightning magic; brings down the cost slightly, but means she's never subtle or stealthy with it!). Then there's the primary spell, generally something of broad utility that is emblematic of the magic (Create Lightning, in the case of lightning magic), and then a whole list of secondary skills that can be purchased as alternate abilities off of that. You're also allowed to buy secondary spells up into full (Not alternate) abilities if you want, so you can have multiple spells up at a time (She did so for her Insulate spell, which is DR vs lightning), though they're still limited to no more points than the primary spell. It also convinced me to switch to multiplicative modifiers, since some of the spells-as-powers can stack a large number of enhancements that would otherwise entirely drown out even crippling limitations.

I've experimented with a bunch of different magical systems in GURPS, mostly with spells as powers, but this is the one that I'm most happy with.

I haven't gotten Sorcery, but I have heard that it does something similar to Divine Favor.

What specifically makes it particularly based on divine favor? That sounds like a basic magic as powers system.



I had a strong adverse reaction to sorcery until I went back and read it a second time much later, and realized that its limitations and occasionally odd requirements are an intentional and core part of the system that distinguish it from generic magic as powers.

Anders 10-07-2020 08:50 AM
Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 
Divine Favor is "miracles as Powers", so it's similar to Sorcery in that way. I think that's what he's going for.

Ulzgoroth 10-07-2020 10:33 AM
Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2347312)
Actually it comes from the fact that the "multiple doses of the same elixir will be wasted" rule in Magic (p 220) does not apply to Paut per GURPS Thaumatology p. 24 which also states you can down the elixir at a rate of 1 dose per round. So Merlin-1 could have a mage Jolt cola but it is going to cost said mage $1,740 for a 12 oz can. And if he wants it in Talisman form that is going to cost $17,400 for a 12 energy (dose) Paut Talisman.
The question, again, is what rule anywhere tells you that a 12 energy Paut Talisman is a thing that can exist?

Your theory seems to be:
-If you apply the batch rule to talisman crafting, you get a talisman that has the same effect as taking the entire batch of elixer.

But why that rather than:
-You can't apply the batch rule to talisman crafting.
or
-If you batch craft talismans, you get a batch of talismans.

AlexanderHowl 10-07-2020 10:43 AM
Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 
I would probably go with the latter interpretation.

Ulzgoroth 10-07-2020 11:37 AM
Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered (Post 2347315)
What specifically makes it particularly based on divine favor? That sounds like a basic magic as powers system.
Structuring it as a cluster of Alternate Abilities rather than a bunch of fully separated abilities doesn't seem like the an obvious first principle of magic as powers.

It seems significantly different from Divine Favor (and Sorcery) in that it doesn't make the 'central' ability be one that sort of already contains all the others, but less functionally than actually buying them.

AlexanderHowl 10-07-2020 02:01 PM
Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 
My primary issue with the 'powers as magic' systems is that they usually represent a large investment of points compared to other magical systems without an equivalent increase in utility. For example, take two magical characters, one given 400 CP for IQ and Sorcery and one given 400 CP for IQ and RPM. The RPM mage can purchase IQ 20 [200], Magery 8 [85], Natural Caster 4 [60], Path Adept [40], and 15 CP to get Alchemy-21, Exorcism-22, Mental Strength-22, Occultism-23, Symbol Drawing-22, Thaumatology-21, and nine Paths at 21, and half of their utility is in their cinematic IQ. A Sorcerer must be much more careful in balancing IQ, Magery, Sorcery Pool, and Sorcery Abilities, and will likely end up outclassed by the RPM character, especially if the RPM character has time to prepare.

SolemnGolem 10-07-2020 02:26 PM
Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 
Quote:
My primary issue with the 'powers as magic' systems is that they usually represent a large investment of points
This has been my experience generally, too, but in certain cases, "big boss" style magical powers have been cheaper (or at least, easier) to assign with advantage points than it would be to grant spells-as-skills for equivalent power.

I was trying to stat up a lich king reflecting a Ravenloft villain, and was bashing my head against the spells-as-skills mechanics, when I found in Pyramid 3-25 there was a description of how to do this with points on page 5.

Toxic Attack 10d (Area Effect, 128 yards, +350%; Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300%; Emanation, -20%; Magical, -10%) [288], followed by Allies (1,000 zombies; Built on 25% ; Magical, -10%; Minion, +0%; Summonable, +100%; 15 or less) [99].

As compared to the sort of number crunching I'd have to do with the Zombie spell from Magic.

AlexanderHowl 10-07-2020 02:44 PM
Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 
And there is some 'powers as magic' even in RPM with the existence of magical gadgets. For example, a Necromancer's Staff might have Ally (1,000 skeletons; 25%; 15-; Environmental, Ground, -10%; Magical, -10%; Minion, +50%; Protected Staff, -50%; Summonable, +100%) [98], +4 Magery (Protected Staff, -50%), Natural Caster 4 (Protected Staff, -50%) [30], and Path Adept (Protected Staff, -50%) [20], for a total of 168 CP. When planted into the ground for a moment, the owner can summon a group of 1,000 skeletons to do their bidding. In addition, the owner becomes a phenomenally powerful and skilled magician while wielding the staff.

Phoenix_Dragon 10-07-2020 04:07 PM
Re: What are the best magical systems in GURPS?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered (Post 2347315)
What specifically makes it particularly based on divine favor? That sounds like a basic magic as powers system.
By having a single primary (And generally flexible) ability at the core with a bunch of alternate (And more focused) abilities built around that, with the primary ability effectively acting as the "power limit" for all of them. I suppose "inspired by" may be more apt than "based on."

Incidentally, between almost all the spells being purchased at 1/5 cost, the power modifiers, and the use of multiplicative modifiers to reign in the cost impact of really big enhancements, it's pretty affordable.


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