Martial Arts Style Talent
 

Looking through the Martial Arts, some of them work well as Talents. These Talents would probably not represent an innate aptitude but rather extreme training and would give a bonus to the skills mandatory for the style, rounded out with Cinematic skills in a campaign that use it. Not all of them would fit - you would need at least 4 skills to motivate a Talent - but it would be an interesting addition. And probably give a reaction bonus to other practitioners of the style.

For instance, the High Medieval Knightly Combat Talent would be:

High Medieval Knightly Combat
Axe/Mace, Broadsword, Lance, Riding (Horse), Shield, Wrestling.
Reaction Bonus: Other practitioners of the style.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

It just becomes a bit of a point crock. I would suggest increasing the cost to 10 CP per level, adding the IQ-based skills of Animal Handling, Leadership, Strategy, and Tactics, and expanding the reaction bonus to members of the aristocracy, nobility, and royalty. It is less of a point crock and makes a more generally useful character. Such a principle could be extended to every such style talent.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

I would rather add the cinematic skills (Kiai and Power Blow). That makes it 10 points.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

That would be less useful in a realistic campaign though, so it would depend on the type of campaign that you would be running.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

I think the Talents book mentioned the idea of Martial Arts Style Talents, so it's not that implausible.

As for styles not always having enough realistic required skills, you could expand it with some related or optional skills. For example, Aikido (GURPS Martial Arts p149 text box) only has two required skills, and Aikijutsu (same page) has one, but both have six optional skills, and it would be pretty easy to justify adding a few of them to a Style Talent, or adding something related but not on the list (Aikido masters with Diplomacy and Meditation are almost a stereotype, for example).

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

That book specifically calls out martial-arts styles as being perhaps appropriate as Job Training (pp. 25-26), with all that implies. So not true Talents, but a close relative.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

Power-up 3 - talents specifically advice against this :

At 5/level, for 26 cp, you gain the equivalent of 72 cp in primary skills, 4 of those being "must buy" for a knight.
An instant buy for any knight.

Even at 10/lvl, it is a bargain.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

A possible alternative would be a Courtly Knight Talent [5/level]. It might include Animal Handling, Dancing, Leadership, Poetry, and Riding. It would grant a reaction bonus from anyone of equal or higher Status than the character (Animal Handling, Leadership, and Riding would almost make it a mandatory purchase for knightly characters).

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

It might synerigize a little too well with the three Knightly Mounted Combat Martial Arts Styles (4e Magic Arts) especially in a cinematic campaign.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

If you start from the premise that a wildcard skill for the style (or for a profession in general, like 'Knight!') is valid, and remember that those ultimately settle on 12/level after the first couple, pricing it as a 12/level talent shouldn't break anything too badly.

Maybe bump it up to 15/level for the sake of pentaphilia, and attribute the extra points/level to the training and reaction bonuses.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

For a style with all the skills based on DX (as many or most in the book are) I can't see paying 15 points for +1 to all its skills when 20 points would buy +1 to all DX-based skills and additional benefits besides. Throw in the cinematic skills (many of which are based on mental attributes) and I might begin to consider it, but that isn't an option in all campaigns.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

Depending on the campaign, DX 15+ may call for an Unusual Background to represent the sheer improbability, and DX 16+ may be considered physically impossible for most humans. DX over 20 almost certainly will be. So that may factor into the consideration.

You'd probably want to include some non-DX skills in this kind of talent, though, yeah.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

There's a pretty lengthy discussion of the concept here from a few years back. Might be of interest.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

But that shouldn't be a consideration in the pricing of a talent because otherwise you'd effectively be telling the players they should buy DX15 before the talent (there's also the issue of having such a low cap on an attribute in a setting that would likely not have the points to back it up, but that's a whole other can of worms that doesn't need to be discussed here).

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

In general, I believe that weapon talents should only cover a group of related skills that default to each other, plus a single thematic skill. For example, a Sword Talent could easily cover Broadsword, Knife, Shortsword, and Two-handed Sword, as well as Shield, while a Fencing Talent could easily cover Main-Guache, Rapier, Saber, and Smallsword, as well as Shield (Buckler).

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

Regarding 'such a low cap', I'm basing that on the guidelines from Template Toolkit 1 that describe 17-18 in an attribute as, like, either among the best in history or purely fictional, which strongly suggests nobody alive has more than 16. But that's a tangent, anyway.

10 points per level is probably fair price for this talent compared to attribute costs, really, but there's something about it that doesn't sit right with me. It feels like it's better to make it cost 15 and find some side-benefits to make it worth it.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

That's always a cool idea. You could just slap on some 5pt/lvl trait (such as DR) to round it out.

Generally speaking, I find 10+pt cost talents to usually be overpriced. Attributes at 20pts cover 200+ skills each. One skill is 4pts. It's much more likely to be some sort of exponential growth instead of linear growth as the number grows.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

I mean, that was the point. Adding Power Blow and Kiai would raise the cost to 10 points, which may be fairer for a campaign that includes chi skills.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

With the exception of Wildcard Magery ("Wildcard Colleges", Thaumatology p. 75), a Talent does not improve skills covered by or defaulted to wildcard skill if both are allowed to exist. (GURPS Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills p. 16, 24)

IMHO we should talk about ideas in a campaign "neutral" setting as each campaign is going to be its own thing and just muddies the waters.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I wasn't talking about stacking talent and wildcard skills.

What I meant was more like this:

There are no martial arts style talents currently priced. There are martial arts wildcard skills. From the wildcard skills, we know that 12/level is considered a fair price for 'improve your rolls at everything in the style by +1', so it seems like a reasonable starting point for figuring out how to price an equivalent talent that improves your rolls at everything in the style by +1.
There's definitely room for argument there. After some of the debate here I'm leaning toward a combination of 1) this isn't really what talents are for, but 2) if it is allowed, 10/level is probably closest to fair. Unlike the wildcard guy you're not getting all the free techniques and, as has been pointed out, 15/level is probably too much for a DX-focused talent even if you do consider the reaction bonus and training speed buffs as part of the value of the talent.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

Ok I see. It doesn't help that we have two types of talents in the game: mundane talents and power talents.

I should mention we actually have pricing guidelines for mundane talents (Power-Ups 3 - Talents pg 4, 25):

Small (6 or fewer related skills): 5 points/level.
Medium (7 to 12 related skills): 10 points/level.
Large (13 or more related skills): 15 points/level.
Smooth (minimum 5 points): 1 point/level per skill affected.

The most expensive mundane talent (using smooth calculation) as of July 2011 is Beastmaster at 12/level.

You have to go to Power Talents to find one more expensive that that: Cosmic at 15/level and is effectively a defacto wildcard talent that covers every skill in the game! (Powers p. 124-125)

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

The Cosmic Talent only gives a bonus to abilities that possess the Cosmic (+50% or higher) enhancement, it does not give any bonuses to skills (unless they are power skills used for abilities).

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

I can't remember where in Powers but early in the book in touches upon how they don't have to be separate things. I actually like it when players take mundane talents as power talents, personally.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

You are confusing the talent with the modifier - they are two different things.

"It doesn’t have a single focus – by definition, it deals with anything and everything – and the only countermeasure it faces is itself." (sic).

"Any advantage can be a Cosmic ability, as long as it has the Cosmic modifier." Advantage not skill.

"Talent with a power acts as a bonus to all success rolls against attributes, secondary characteristics, or skills to use the power’s abilities." (Powers p. 158)

None of those are advantages.

The highest other talents (Magery and Power Investitue) are 10/level which the +50% bonus would result in 15/level which is exactly what the Cosmic Talent has. This is the pricing that any talent that "encompass nearly anything (e.g., “Cosmic Talent”), or that otherwise transcends the normal limitations of source" has. (Powers p. 29)

"This is similar to a mundane Talent (see p. B89), but instead of giving a bonus to skill rolls, it gives a bonus to all success rolls made to activate or use any of the power’s abilities Telepathy Talent 3 gives +3 to the IQ, Will, and Perception rolls to use telepathic abilities." (Powers p. 9)

So Power s explains that while similar mundane and power talents are different things. The best canonal example is "Mundane" Magery vs Magery (Ritual Path). The first adds to skill level the second does not. Of course Magery (Ritual Path) has issues because as written you should be able to go from normal magery to it via enchantments and limitations...but you don't know how.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

The key phrase is 'to use the power's abilities'. In order for an ability to be under the Cosmic Talent, it must possess the Cosmic modifier, otherwise it is not part of the power. It also does nothing to give a bonus to non-ability attribute, secondary characteristic, skill, etc. rolls (like any power talent, it modifies most rolls to use its abilities). To read it otherwise is to suggest that a 15 CP talent can completely replace 60 CP worth of attributes.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

Never saw Magic Power at 40/level from Supers 1e which did the same blasted thing did you? And yes it was as insane as it sounds. But the same argument can be made of Wildcard Skills, Techniques (3x normal cost), Advantages (3x normal cost), Languages (3x normal cost), and Powers (4x normal cost). And then there are Template Wildcards and Ultimate templates

And if you want a total points bonanza try Wildcard Magery and College! sometime. As the GURPSwiki points out:

Unlike other forms of Magery which do not add to wildcard spells (GURPS Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills pg 16, 24) Wildcard Magery expressly does("Wildcard Colleges", Thaumatology pg 75) . It is the only exception to the general rule that a Talent doesn’t improve skills covered by or defaulted to the wildcard. Because of this difference great care must be taken in allowing Wildcard Magery in a campaign.

Comparison Example
Morgan Silvercloak has IQ 15, Magery 2, and 12 points (attribute-1) in the Air College! skill . He therefore has Air College!-14, and can cast Purify Air at skill 14, Shape Air at 13, and Lightning at 12.

"Thaumaticus-Z6G has IQ 15, Wildcard Magery 2, and 12 points in the Air College! skill. He therefore has Air College!-16, and can cast Purify Air at skill 16, Shape Air at 15, and Lightning at 14." (Thaumatology pg 75)

Just because something can be a total point give me doesn't mean it isn't valid per the RAW.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

By RAW, power talents explicitly only give bonuses to ability rolls, whether they involve attributes, secondary characteristics, or skills (Powers, p. 158). The Cosmic Talent specifically only gives bonuses to ability rolls for abilities with the Cosmic power modifier (Powers, 125). It does not benefit any roll except for those associated with abilities with the Cosmic modifier.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

Powers p29 talks about existing advantages as Talents, explicitly calling out Green Thumb as a usable power talent (and the incredibly silly idea for Status).

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

"Rubber Body: Double-Jointed [15] + Modular Abilities (Cosmic Power, 30 points; All-Out, -25%; Limited, Body Parts Only, -20%; Costs Fatigue, 1 FP/5 points, -15%; Physical, +50%; Requires HT Roll, -10%; Takes Extra Time 3, -30%) [150] + Stretching 5 [30]" (Power p. 151) shows that is not how the rule is read. If it was then Double-Jointed would have to be Cosmic as well and be [23] points not [15] and the same is true of Stretching 5 for [45] not the [30] we're given.

From GURPS Horror: Ancient One ... Energy Reserve 300 (Cosmic; Accessibility, Only where Euclidean geometry is weak and when the stars are right, -80%) [180] (Horror p. 74).

That is the only mention of cosmic in the write up. So if only things that themselves are Cosmic can be used with a Cosmic power than what in the sam hill good does that 300 Cosmic Energy Reserve do? The position you are presenting doesn't hold and is not supported by the examples I know of.

Given how badly Partially Limited Magery (the examples show the opposite of how one would normally read the rules; yeh it's that badly written) they really should have given us better examples of how the Comic talent works but instead we have plenty of examples of how the Comic modifier works

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

That is not a power with the "cosmic power modifier", it is the variant of modular ability named "Cosmic Power". (basic p71)

One of the worst name in the book, as it is extremely confusing !

Cosmic can be 3 separate things in Gurps :
-the variant of modular ability named "Cosmic Power"
-the power modifier "Cosmic"
-the rules breaking enhancement "Cosmic" (at the GM choice, it may also count as the power modifier "Cosmic" for free, but this is not mandatory)

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

I don't think anyone said you cannot use a cosmic ER to power non cosmic ability.
EDit : I stand corrected, Power p119 explicitly say that.

Only that the Power talent "Cosmic" only affect rolls for abilities with the cosmic power modifier, same as a darkness talent only affect rolls for abilities with the darkness power modifier, and the same with all duo power modifier-power talent.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

Magery is in much the same state thanks to Wildcard Magery, Ritual Magery, and Magery (Ritual Path) all of which are different and work differently. Then there is the way Magery 0 now works (ie the same unless specifically modified per GURPS Thaumatology pg 20-21)

Whee ain't that fun?,

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

Actually, you can only use ER (Cosmic) to power Cosmic abilities, as ER is always linked to a source. At a miminum, you would need the Cosmic (+50%) enhancement added to ER (Cosmic) for it to apply to multiple sources.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

Just checked, and I was wrong.

Which does mean the ability in Horror meaningless. Weird.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

By the way, Wildcard Colleges must be one of the worst purchases in the game. Either I can spend 24 CP for each College! at (IQ + Wildcard Magery) or I can spend 24 CP for each College at ([IQ + Magery] + 4). Unlike most traits, it actually get worse the more points you plow into the trait, as 120 CP can either give you ([IQ + Wildcard Magery] + 8) for College! or ([IQ + Magery] + 28) for College.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

You are forgetting that Wildcard Magery eliminates the need for either Ritual Magic or Thaumatology skill from which Colleges must hang. "College skills have the core skill as a prerequisite and may never exceed the core skill." With no Ritual Magic or Thaumatology skill to limit College! the sky (or the points available) is the limit.

Also normally College! means you know every spell in the College at skill level rather then College - Prerequisite count that Ritual Magic (and Magic!) does and the RAW are nasty in that regard. Even with the option Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills provides you are still looking at a generous 1/2 prerequisite count. Though the default is that unlike Magic! every spell is at the wildcard's skill level.

For example, knowing Enchantment with Ritual Magery still means you have to pony up the points to eliminate the -10 Prerequisite count for the easiest spell in that College, Enchant (that is what that Prerequisite count column in Magic p. 223-237 is for) More over if I am reading B242 correctly Powerstone would still need to be raised from its -11 even if you knew Enchant at College level. There are 21 points right there. Enchantment! by contrast get you every spell at whatever skill level the wildcard is (15 at least obviously) and even with the 1/3 or 1/2 Prerequisite count option it is still cheaper in the long run.

I should mention there is a bit of a conflict regarding Magic! in Magic and Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills vs how Wildcard skills work in the Basic Set. Magic and Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills state "With that single wildcard skill, he can cast any spell he wants, at a penalty equal to the spell’s prerequisite count." while the basic set states "Wildcard skills include and replace all specific skills within their area." (sic)

Interestingly Wildcard Magery has a built in "Each spell defaults to the appropriate college skill at a penalty equal to 1/3 of its prerequisite count, rounded to the nearest whole number." (sic) This actual makes it more balanced than the way College! would normally behave though it is more generous then the 1/2 prerequisite count option of Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

Even with the requirement for Thaumatology, one could argue that College! is inferior to College, especially since Colleges default to Thaumatology-6. If we take the example of the 120 CP build, I can either purchase College! at ([IQ+Wildcard Magery]+8) or I can purchase Thaumatology at ([IQ+Wildcard Magery]+28) and receive every College at ([IQ+Magery]+22). Of course, you could use the optional rule that Thaumatology suffers from the Rule of 20 to artificially make College! a better choice, but it would just be manipulating optional rules to make one choice better than it would be by RAW.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

What is even weirder is that nowhere in the Variations is there something that the cosmic Energy Reserve could power nor any mention of anything that could use that Energy Reserve would have to have cosmic as well. And this is despite Cosmic as a modifier being mentioned on p. 30

In fact, everything in that book that does have Costs Fatigue is decidedly non-Cosmic.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

That is only one arrow in the quiver in College!'s as per RAW there are: "let casters attempt any spell within the college at full skill" (sic, Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills p. 16), Thaumatology's more restrictive 1/3 Prerequisite count (p. 75), or the option of "use prerequisite count divided by two, three (as suggested in GURPS Thaumatology), or more" "If that [default option] seems over generous" (Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills p. 16)

Though the way it is worded I don't think whoever wrote it realized that the larger the number divided by the lower the penalty would be. ie 1/3 is less then 1/2 not more.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

This came up in the previous thread. The problem is that styles vary enormously in scope - Masters of Defense covers a lot more skills than some of the Karate variants. So Wildcard skills might be well priced for broader styles but overpriced for something like Boxing. Talents would be more easily scaled to the breadth of his style.

Pricing Talents is pretty simple. The Talent should include all the Skills of the style and possibly some of the optional skills. So a Talent for La Verdadera Destreza would include Expert Skill (Natural Philosophy), Mathematics TL2 (Pure) and Rapier. That's 3 skills or a 5 point/level Talent. Maybe toss in Body Language as well.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

The style tables on the GURPS Martial Arts page shows this. Not only is there the main style cost with Ninjutsu (more a profession than a style) clocking in at 15, Techniques (26) and cinematic skills (14 with Ninjutsu)

Some styles have so few skills that a Talent is not much good and is actually counter productive.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

And then you have Ultimate Combat which, while it requires Trained by a Master and a 20 CP Unusual Background, makes an awesome Style!. A 500 CP unpowered superhero character with DX 20 and Style! (Ultimate Style) at DX+10 will probably destroy most combat situations against other 500 CP characters.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

that they can get in range of

One of my players is going to love this idea and will totally use it.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

The great thing about DX 20 is that the character can be a world class sniper with just 4 CP. While it would not be their preference, it is good to have options.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

Kind of. DX 20 [200], Ultimate Style! DX+10 [144], Trained by a Master [30] & Unusual Background (Universal Style) [20] costs 394. That leaves a little over 150 to 200 points for everything else. So the PC will have relatively low striking power & durability. Assuming Ultimate Style! includes the cinematic skills he'll be capable of amazing stunts and can mow through low level mobs but will definitely have limitations. And note that Brawling at DX+15 costs only 56 points so a more conventional powerhouse (high DR & Striking ST) could shrug off blows and need just one good hit to take out Kung Fu guy. Still an interesting option.

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 

Oddly enough, that was an argument made for Martial Arts Talent. They let you be masters of a given style without making you automatically brilliant at anything DX based.