Melee question on HTH
 

Melee pages 6 and 7: No options for a disengaged figure to enter HTH,
but engaged option o has HTH at the turn to act.

Page 8: May move into the hex for HTH then stops, but also stops once engaged.

Page 18: "A disengaged figure picks option (b) to initiate HTH combat; he moves onto the enemy’s hex during movement and attacks during combat." (Needs to be added to ITL errata for ITL page 116 to clarify that "If the attacking figure is disengaged, this is a regular move." means a charge attack and not a full move)

So if a wolf, elf, giant bird or other fowl beast runs around and enters through a side or rear hex the "defense against the HTH attack" roll is applied during movement and "6" results are rerolled, correct?

If the attacker attempts to enter through a front hex their movement stops and they have to use option (o) to attempt HTH at their turn to act and "6" rolls apply.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

Is the wolf, elf, giant bird or other fowl beast significant?

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

High MA to get around behind the target.

Also needed to not have a lower MA than the target.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

Every detail is surely significant. But it's up to you to figure it out. This is how we are educated by hcobb.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

Unless I am missing something, the rear is the only way to get behind for HTH. The side is not an option.

But everything else you said checks out.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

I don't know what the question is, but this has been pretty well discussed before.

And mostly agreed upon, except by some people who choose to see only the "as an action" option.


If a disengaged figure can move 1/2 MA and reach the target's hex without being stopped (e.g. by becoming engaged), and the other conditions are met, then yes the figure can attempt to initiate HTH during the movement phase, and a 6 will be re-rolled. The "rear" in the conditions is literal, so the figure usually needs to have higher MA than the target to initiate HTH from the side rather than the rear.

Otherwise, initiating HTH is an action done in adjDX sequence, and a 6 would only be re-rolled if not coming in from the front.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

I think I need to write "Field Ball" rules using the Melee template - because tackling from behind is the best way to stop a runner from getting into the point zone

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

So there is a clear difference in HTH engagement between "behind" and "rear"?

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

It only mentions rear in the HTH rules. Never mentions side. Behind should probably not have been used as a word to avoid confusion.

How much do you guys think adding "side" for initiating HTH would change things? I think I'd still allow a 6 result if sides were allowed, saving a reroll only for rear.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

A couple things that may factor into parts of this...

My interpretation has been that a disengaged figure is not required to stop in the enemy's front hex when rushing in to attempt HTH during movement on the basis of having the higher MA. While it's beneficial to come in through the enemy's rear (a 6 roll won't count), it is not required. The attempt at HTH is allowed if the enemy has a lower MA, or the attacker comes in from the rear, the operative word being "or", not "and". Entering the hex from the rear only becomes a requirement if not faster that the enemy.

I'm sure Henry mentioned the beasties because they'll normally have the higher MA, especially when the enemy is armored. Whether they have enough MA to go around and come in from the rear (preferable) or not, they can still attempt to initiate HTH coming in through whatever hex they want or can. That's the virtue of having the higher MA and starting from disengaged.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

What's the best defense against a mixed wolf-bear force?

For wolves you want your back against the wall, but not against bears.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

Bears have a ridiculously low MA in TFT, but that's another issue.

If you want to keep wolves and other beasts from engaging PCs in HTH, you could go with the RAW solution of simply carrying torches (see ITL 124). This strikes me as overestimating fire's effect on animals.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

TFT bears are obviously arena animals, captured and ill-kept beasts in no wise as fit as their wild kin.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

If Molly's instant Brands don't provide magical protection against wildlife then why add her to your party?

The one-hour torch is about right, the problem is that a two-hour lantern would be burning so hot it that counts as a weapon in its own right.

In any case a torch shouldn't protect against the wolves jumping you from behind while the humans are slowed by snow on the ground. (counts as fallen body hexes for humans, no penalty for the wolves?)

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

Stand back and finish off the winner?

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

Brands are not instant; they have to be lit.

As for torches not protecting against an animal HTH attempt from the rear, that's your call as GM house rule.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

ITL 124: "An ordinary animal attacked with a torch will fight at -2 DX due to fear of the flame, and will not initiate HTH combat"

Is "attacked with" different than engaging?

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

Strange wording, indeed. One would think it should say, "An animal making an attack against someone wielding fire or into a fire hex is at -2 DX..." rather than predicating the DX penalty on the animal's being attacked by fire. One more reason to just house-rule it all away.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

I think it makes some sense as written... simply holding a torch above your head or passively by your side shouldn't prevent a wild animal attack. It only becomes a deterrent when the fire is pushed into the animal's face or waved in a threatening manner at them.

Of course, never having been put in that scenario, I can only rely on what I've seen in movies or on TV. ;)

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

If the DX penalty is founded upon the animal's being attacked, there are questions that the rules don't give guidance on but which require answers:
Does the penalty apply to attacks the animal makes against any figure, or just the one that made the fire-based attack? What about ranged fire attacks? How long does the penalty last?

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

TFT is cinematic to an extent and the sources do show wild animals attacking torch holders from behind.

You need something like a wand, sword, claw to offend somebody with in order to engage them. This is just a special case of engaging with fire.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

I think requiring an attack makes sense and avoid cheesy "we all carry torches in our left hands" tactics.

I would think that the -2 applies to any attack made by the animal on its next action after being attacked that way.

I'd think ranged fire attacks would probably count, subject to GM ruling as always.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

I think it is clearly required to stop when entering a Front hex. The figure could initiate HTH, but during the action phase.

Not only do I think the rules are clear about that, but I think it's the least that should be offered to armed figures facing something trying to grapple them from the front.

The HTH rules are cheap enough already... letting figures ignore engagement to initiate it during movement would make that already-problematic situation worse.


This part however I entirely agree with.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

And yet, we're given rules for attempting to enter (initiate) HTH during the movement phase. You are supposed to move your counter into the same hex as the enemy to make this attempt......

.....and to do so you must come in from the rear if you are not faster. Then what does the "or" mean for those who are faster? Why would Melee (17) even have an "or" if the rear entry was required for everyone to initiate HTH? Clearly the faster figure does not have to enter from the rear, so where does it enter from?

Apparently any hexside that is not the rear. The rules could have stated from a side hex only, but they do not, despite being so explicit about when it does have to be from the rear. Being constrained to come in from a side is conspicuous in its absence. If disengaged but not faster you have to attempt HTH from the rear, if disengaged and faster you can come in from the other hexsides, which has to include front as well as side or it really would have been mentioned otherwise. There's just no other way I can see to read the rules.

Normally a charging figure has to stop in a front facing enemy hex because that starts engagement, and that is emphasized in no uncertain terms elsewhere. But the HTH rules are for that one case where you don't stop, but continue to throw yourself physically at the enemy and place one counter on top of the other. You could look at it as yes, regular movement (walking or running) ends for the figure when it enters the enemy's front hexside. And then the incoming attacker jumps or pounces, throwing their body straight into the other one. That pounce is the attempt to initiate HTH. Then it works or it doesn't depending on a die roll.

Call it just my interpretation if you will, but it's how I see the mechanics of HTH attempts as SJ intended them. He can weigh in if he wants! :)

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

Melee page 18 makes it clear that only disengaged figures can jump foes during movement and page 8 states "A figure must stop its movement when it enters any front hex of an enemy figure, thus becoming engaged"

Hence you have to use shift if you enter the front hex of figure around your own size or bigger.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

Exactly.


Yes. Those rules apply to disengaged figures, who manage to make their way to the target's hex, which means they did not get stopped by being engaged in a front hex, so they went around.


The four general conditions for entering HTH on Melee page 17 are consistent in I think all versions of TFT. They're all OR conditions meaning only one of them need be met. They apply in addition to the limits on WHEN/HOW you can attempt HTH, which are based on your Engagement state. The Engagement rules clearly state that every figure moving into an enemy Front hex stops and becomes Engaged. Disengaged figures can attempt HTH during movement IF they can reach the target hex itself. Engaged figures can attempt HTH only during the action phase.

So to specifically answer your question above, the conditions mean that a Disengaged figure with higher MA than their target can attempt HTH during movement if they can reach the target's hex using 1/2 MA or less without being stopped, and (unlike figures with equal or lower MA than their target) they don't also need to enter from the Rear, which logically leaves the Side hexes. The Front hexes would be fair game too, and can be used by Engaged figures during the action phase, but coincidentally tend to be impossible to move through during the movement phase due to the Engagement rules. However, a figure with superior hex side could ignore engagement and then attempt HTH via the front if it had higher MA than the target. Otherwise it could attempt a Push and declare itself in HTH if it wanted IF the target failed its DX roll to step back.


Rear entry is not required by everyone to initiate HTH - it's just one way to satisfy the requirements.

I don't know why it's not clear to you what it means. There are four conditions, ONE of which is a prerequisite to initiate HTH. They do not mean that other rules can't also interfere, such as being stopped by Engagement.


Wherever it can, given the limits of the other rules. Front hexes tend to force most figures to stop and become Engaged when they enter them, so a faster figure that does that will need to obey the Engagement rules and wait to the action phase if they still want to inititiate HTH at that point.


I think you're almost right, except engagement still stops movement unless you've got some trick such as being a larger figure.


If the attacker has both higher MA and higher adjDX, and there's no one faster to help the target, then a wolf or something is almost as good as you say.

But if it just happens during movement then it completely ignores any ability to stop HTH except the super-generic one-die roll to see what happens.

How are you supposed to hunt boar (or wolves, or have any chance armored warriors can hold off a swarm of even unarmed tacklers) if you don't even get a chance to use your spear before it's already got you in HTH during movement?

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

The rules of Movement (page 8) are the rules of Movement. The rules of initiating HTH (pages 17-18) are the rules of initiating HTH -- the latter could be intended to trump the former, and if it's not then these rules become inconsistent with each other. Yes, if disengaged you need to use the Movement rules to get in position (adjacent) to attempt HTH, but the attempt itself, the leap onto the target figure, comes after stopping in an adjacent hex; the rules of Movement are "satisfied" and then the rules of HTH take over; you do end up engaged if the HTH attempt fails and you tried it through a front hex, as you're now stuck in the hex you came from -- you can't go anywhere else even if you have unused MA remaining, because now you are engaged as normal.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

Oh, I'm not saying the simple one-die roll to avoid HTH is a good rule! No, but I wouldn't call it bad either, just not the best possible rule. The goal here seems to have been to keep HTH as streamlined as possible. One of those critical points where the game might be at risk of bogging down if things got more realistic. But leaving HTH out altogether would have been exceedingly unrealistic, so it was included albeit in a compromised form.

By inference from the catalog of pole arm advantages, I'd certainly put the defenders roll to skewer the Charge Attacking enemy before the initiation attempt at HTH combat. It you go hunting boar and wolves with other than spears and bows, you'll probably get what you deserve when the animal leaps at you.

Re: Melee question on HTH
 

Threads like this tend to make me wonder if a more fluid approach to combat and the structure of the 'round' might be preferable to the strict design currently used in TFT.

Don't get me wrong, the tight tactical elements of the ruleset is certainly one of its strengths, but I think that sometimes the lack of flexibility can be frustrating when addressing the less typical melee scenarios.