How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?
 

Below I would like to know how others have interpreted the rules in ITL. I am not interested in House Rules. That is, please share your house rule only if it is an attempt to interpret the rules, not if it embellishes or adds to the rules. Also note this is strictly about ITL as Melee's MG rules are different.

When I read the rules for Main Gauche (MG) and the Two Weapons Skill, I find a hole that is not explicitly defined. With two weapons there are three possible uses: Attack with both, attack with one and attack with neither (Defend). I find the MG rules are not explicit about the parry effect when attacking with both.

MG rules state:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; MG strikes at AdjDX-4; No statement on -1 parry (allow or don't?).
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; MG parries -1 (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and MG parries -1 (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)

Two Weapons skill states:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon strikes at AdjDX-4; No parry.
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon parries -2 (only vs melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and both weapons parry for a net -4 (only vs melee attacks)

When I look at the MG situation in light of the Two Weapons rules, I come to the conclusion that the MG does not get the -1 parry whenever the MG is attacking. This to me is logical as the MG is either being used to strike or parry.

If you assume no MG parry during MG attack, then the two can be combined cleanly. That is when you have someone with a MG and either Two Weapons skill or Fencing Skill, you are easily able to combine the rules. If instead you allow the MG to parry while striking, then combining the skill with the MG becomes a mess (-1 -2 and -3 at times and various amounts may not apply to 2 handed attacks, etc) nor is it logical it is doing both attacking and defending.

So I end up with:

Using MG with Two Weapons/Fencing skill:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon (MG) strikes at AdjDX-4; No parry.
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon (MG) parries -2 (only vs melee attacks) <-- improved both -1 to -2 and now all melee attacks
- defend: Defends and both weapons parry for a net -4 (only vs melee attacks) <-- improved both -1 to -2 and now all melee attacks


In the above, I would like to know how others have interpreted the rules in ITL. I am not interested in House Rules. That is, please share your house rule only if it is an attempt to interpret the rules, not if it embellishes or adds to the rules.

Let me know how you have interpreted this.

Re: How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?
 

This has been extensively discussed on various threads here and, while I don't think you can us the RAW to defend a clearly 'correct' interpretation, consensus seems to be that you get to keep the -1 protection of the main gauche on turns when you use it to deliver a second melee attack at -4 DX. In this sense it is a special exception (sort of like net and trident or two nunchucks are special exceptions).

Re: How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?
 

Thank you Lars.

I would then summarize the rules like this:

MG rules state:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; MG strikes at AdjDX-4; MG parry -1 damage (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; MG parries -1 (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and MG parries -1 (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)

Two Weapons skill states:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon strikes at AdjDX-4; No parry.
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon parries -2 (only vs melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and both weapons parry for a net -4 (only vs melee attacks)

Using MG with Two Weapons/Fencing skill:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon (MG) strikes at AdjDX-4; MG parry -1 damage (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon (MG) parries -2 (only vs melee attacks) and additional MG parry -1 damage (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and both weapons parry for a net -4 (only vs melee attacks) and additional MG parry -1 damage (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)

Re: How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?
 

That's pretty close to what I think is the 'board consensus', except I don't believe anyone has suggested you should be able to stack the Two Weapons parry bonus with another shield-like bonus using the same weapon. So, I would say using a main gauche with no secondary attack and two weapons talent you get 2 rather than 3 armor points.

Re: How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?
 

Thank you again Lars.

I would then summarize the rules like this:

MG rules state:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; MG strikes at AdjDX-4; MG parry -1 damage (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; MG parries -1 (only vs 1 handed melee attacks) <<< no reason to ever do this, since attacking with both is better. This is not a problem
- defend: Defends and MG parries -1 (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)

Two Weapons skill states:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon strikes at AdjDX-4; No parry.
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon parries -2 (only vs melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and both weapons parry for a net -4 (only vs melee attacks)

Using MG with Two Weapons/Fencing skill:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon (MG) strikes at AdjDX-4; MG parry -1 damage (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon (MG) parries -2 (only vs melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and both weapons parry for a net -4 (only vs melee attacks)

Interesting how Fencing with Rapier+MG differs from 2xRapiers. As a secondary weapon if you attack with both, the MG gives you a -1 parry. As a secondary weapon the rapier does one more hit of damage than the MG. So, good given and take. So, yes this works. Thank you.

Re: How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?
 

Great; I'm glad that was helpful. TFT has a number of technical rules that are ambiguous, and I would say 'best practices' should always be to select the interpretation that leads to the most balanced outcome in terms of the value of the choice in question. Another way to judge the special main gauche rules is by comparison with what else you might have done with that left hand. If you used a 2 handed weapon you would gain 1 point of damage. If you held a small shield instead of a main gauche your armor protection would count vs. all melee and missile attacks. The main gauche's attack does an average of 1.5 pts of damage x the fractional chance of success, which will often be 0.5 or less due to the DX penalty). So, it is really 'worth' something quite similar to what you could have gained by making a different choice.

Re: How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?
 

ITL 41 (Two Weapons talent)
Any character can fight with two weapons at once – if one of the weapons
is a dagger, main-gauche, or spike shield, or if some combination like net-and-trident or two cesti is being used. However, a character who wants to fight with two swords, sword and mace, or other such combination must have this talent.


This to me means that Two Weapon talent is useless for a M-G or dagger as the second weapon. No 2-Wpn rules apply.


ITL 111 Left-Hand Weapons
The left-hand dagger, or main-gauche, acts as a shield to parry 1 hit per attack, from non-missile, one-handed weapons only, from your front hexes. If you take an attack option, you can also make a separate dagger attack against the same enemy. It is rolled at -4 DX.


No talent other than Knife/Sword required. I also read it as saying that you can either use it as a shield or attack but not both. (The "also" refers to a second attack in the same turn not a second use for the dagger or main-gauche.)
So, you can use a left hand dagger or main-gauche with the Fencer/Master Fencer Talents but not with the Two Weapons talent.
In other words IF you have Fencer then you get the -2 parry with a M-G or -4 if you use both weapons to parry as well as the -1DX for your opponent from Fencer BUT you don't get those results if you just have Two-weapons.

Re: How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?
 

Hi Hellborn,
Read the "Fencing" skill. It is specifically about using Main Gauche with this skill which grants Two Weapons skill for MGs on top of what the MG does already.
-kind regards
-Alan

My apologies. Correction to what I wrote above:

Hi Helborn,
I misread your update. Yes I think we are saying the same thing.
-kind regards
-Alan

Re: How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?
 

I will ask this here since it is a discussion about left handed attacks.

What about doing a left hand attack when fighting unarmed? Not in HTH, but in general. And I know some people think it means using your whole body, but in HTH you can use two daggers, or at least I have seen builds like that.

You can box with two cesti and UC V allows double punching without any penalty to the left or secondary attack which seems fine as an added perk of that level. But what is to stop me from attacking with my 1 handed sword and then kick or give them a left hook, instead of adding a secondary knife attack?

Can this be used with UC? I don't think it would make things unbalanced really. At least not compared to expertise and mastery builds, fencing builds and so on.

Re: How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?
 

Rules-as-written:

If you mean, can you do an unarmed melee attack with something in your right hand, I would say yes, because the description includes kicking.

However the description of Unarmed Combat talent says it requires both hands free.

If you mean can you do two unarmed melee attacks in one turn, no, clearly not except with cesti or Unarmed Combat V. By the rules-as-written these are very clearly exceptions that underline that no, you can't generally make multiple unarmed combat melee attacks per turn - I would say that they already represent doing whatever you can to try to hurt someone with whatever body parts.


House rules would of course belong in a thread in the House Rules sub-forum.

Re: How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?
 

I am not after house rulings. You can always do that. But I am trying to figure out what is RAW and what is RAI.

It seems a little strange to me that you can use a dagger in your left hand without any talent for it and make a secondary attack. And you can fight with two weapons without a talent, but with a high negative dex modifier. Cesti mentions punching and gives a -3/-3 adjustment, but at the same time mentions that a cestus works like a MG, which would mean -0/-4 if you used one cestus in your main hand, and then used your left-hand MG attack.

You can fight with a sword and an MG in your left hand. And you can hit a person with an unarmed attack (not UC), but it is not specified if you can do so with a torch in one hand, or a sword, and so on.

So can you hit someone with a punch, even though you have a sword in your other hand? If you can do that, one would assume you can do that with a sword attack and a punch too? With a -6 on both attacks at the very least. But with Two Weapons talent, you should be able to hit with a -0/-4. And I feel that it would be logical to be able to do that with a dagger, MG, a cestus that works like a MG and a fist, even though the latter is not specially mentioned.

And from that, you could take it one step further and do it with brawling or UC, but those ones are a stretch.

Normally you can apply a balance calculation to these things since TFT is a pretty darn balanced game. And doing so gives us a good reason to think that it would be balanced. In most cases where you could use this, a dagger would work just as well, and it would do more damage. But it would also mean you couldn't open a door or that you had to draw the dagger, while the punch is always there. Fairly balanced against having a small shield or a dagger I would say, and it would give us a more cinematic story with push, shoves, and so on from the swordsman that only have a single one handed weapon.

So if not RAW, or errata worthy, but RAI perhaps? Or would it be unbalanced or would it complicate things?

Re: How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?
 

I would expect that RAI is that the GM can choose whether to deny or indulge such ideas, or other stunts, as they see fit.


As for your specific ideas:

I think the left-hand dagger attack (and main gauche abilities) probably should require at least the Knife talent. Even if it's not, it's not likely to work without it. (And if like me, you keep the old -4 DX for untalented weapon use AND have rules for effects of very low adjDX, then it becomes even less likely to be a good idea.)

Cestus is an unusual weapon (and almost all the unusual weapons still have some development/balance issues), and requires an unusual weapon talent.

Also, I think perhaps cestus compares a bit more oddly in Legacy edition to main gauche than it did in original Advanced Melee (where attacking with a weapon AND a main gauche put BOTH attacks at -4), because main gauche changed from a dubious weapon to an actually pretty good option in Legacy edition.

I think you can do a non-UC unarmed attack if you have something in your main hand, because presumably you can kick, punch with the left hand, and maybe bludgeon with the right even though it's holding something. But no, I would not assume that RAW nor RAI are that you can make an unarmed attack AND make a sword attack on the same turn, or else it would say so, and it certainly isn't just a -4 with no penalty to your main attack, or else that'd be something people would probably do quite a lot.

Most melee attacks represent full undistracted effort with the one attack - the talents and equipment that enable multiple attacks are the exceptions.

Your suggestion that you could do both at once at -6 to each... seems to me like ok as something I might tend to allow, though not RAW.

As for balance, I think that unarmed damage in ITL is a bit high for what it is, especially at the high and low ends of the ST scale where clubs do as well as talent-requiring steel military weapons of the same ST, and especially with the availability of Brawling and clubs based on it. With the damage nudged down, I think it would be less of a problem.

Re: How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?
 

I also assume double penalties for lacking talent (knife) and do a secondary attack with the left hand.

So the whole thing comes down to the fact that you can do a left-handed attack (with the knife talent) at -4. Or you could use a shield. And those are the reasons why people wouldn't often use a left-handed fist attack. You usually have something in that hand, and if nothing else, a torch.

With the two-weapon talent you can whack them with any weapon at a -4, so can you do it with a fist attack? Does the fist attack qualify as a weapon in the context of the 2-w talent? Or do you need some sort of improvised weapon, knuckle duster or some such? Could you use a right cestus for your main attack and then with the 2-W. talent attack at 0/4 instead of -3/-3?

The rules are not really clear or logical/intuitive on this.

Re: How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?
 

I think rather that the main reason is that it works better in reality to focus your attention on fighting with the sword, as opposed to trying to add a left-hand punch in with what you're doing with yourself while sword fighting.

Despite having a left hand and arm that aren't holding anything, it does not follow that you can also generally do an attack with that and not interfere with your sword use.

In this way, I think the original rules felt more correct to me.

As another player suggested on the TFT Discord server recently, perhaps Main Gauche should be a 1-point talent (prereq: knife) required to do the new Legacy version of Main Gauche, but that it be included in Fencing (if you have it, you can learn Fencing for 2 points).


Not RAW, no. It specifies weapons that you have a talent for.


Ask your GM. The Fencing and Two Weapons talents mention the concept of what's traditionally taught. So I'd tend to think each school might train in certain specific types of weapons, and while maybe one could involve Cestus, probably many/most would not, and I don't think of it as a necessary conclusion that you can combine anything. Then again, Cestus is pretty rare for anyone to know even by itself in my campaigns, so... again, ask your GM.


They're not, probably because there are so many possible combinations, and they were written and re-written in phases. The TFT rules overall tend to turn over details to the GM at a certain point.


If someone really wanted a character that could punch at -4 while using a weapon, I might offer it as a special combat talent, though I might tease them by calling it Bitch Slap. ;-)