Fixing round length in GURPS
 

The Dungeon Fantastic blog makes several good points in the April 2, 2020 article, "Turn length in GURPS". This is attempt to fix certain problems noted, including that turn lengths make sense on the micro scale, but not on the macro scale. A battle involving 1,000 individuals on each side, still proceeds at 1 second per round, with no game time given to Oberve, Orient, or Decide in the game time. No time is given to pauses, unless rules such as exhaustion mechanics force it. In addition, everyone is clearly shown as perfectly aware of everything that doesn't need an explicit per roll.

This post, then, suggests a fix to round length. Apologies if the wording is confusing; I lack sleep.

Round length is increased using a chart with both logarithmic and triangular numbers. The length of a round is based on the number of combatants. In each round, you may take a number of discrete actions as specified in the chart. In addition, you may take a number of non-discrete actions. Each action, discrete or non-discrete, takes one second; this is unchanged from the default rules. Making an attack, picking a lock, attempting to intimidate someone, or driving a vehicle towards a specific destination are all examples of discrete actions. Aiming, feinting, taking extra time, taking an item (such as a gun or a lockpicking toolkit) out of your pocket, and adjusting the speed and direction of a vehicle, are all examples of non-discrete actions. If you are not sure, it is probably a discrete action. The chart only notes discrete actions; the number of non-discrete actions remaining is equal to the number of seconds left after discrete actions have been allocated. You need not take your full number of discrete actions, or any discrete actions at all; the only limit is that the total actions taken cannot exceed the number of seconds per round.

SPR: Seconds per Round
* In case a character finds themself in mortal combat with themself. In such a case, shooting oneself in the cheek as repayment for their cheek is traditional.
** Mathematically a little over, but then, that's the point.

Edit: In the case of the longer round lengths, with 5 or more discrete actions per player, it is recommended that GMs apply a secondary house rule, such as resolving rounds simultaneously.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

I don't see how the proposal fixes any of the issues raised in your first paragraph. Also, I wonder if the discutants at the blog are aware of the GURPS Mass Combat system.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Since the only issue named, and the only one really raised, is the Observe-Orient-Decision-Action loop, and that GURPS rounds mostly consist of all characters doing Action, with no evident Observe or Orient, and less time spent on Decision, I'm curious as to where you got multiple issues from. Unless you're importing the entire blog post into my post.

Quite simply, my proposed house-rules fix this problem by limiting the number of Action... actions you can take (otherwise known as Discrete Actions), based on the number of individuals present in the combat, and thus an implicit amount of time that must be spent on Observe, Orient, and Decision actions (otherwise known as Non-discrete Actions). As long as there's more than two combatants, anyway.

If you don't feel this is a problem, then this thread is probably not of any interest to you.

I dunno; you could always ask him. He's on the forum.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Looking at this while (slightly) more awake, I've realized it's not all that good a solution. I mean, it is a solution; but it's also a blunt instrument.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

My added emphasis and inserted numbers in the quote below indicate how I got to the idea of multiple issues.


I guess I don't get how forcing inaction creates any more ability to do those things than just letting them choose to do those things with their turns by choice.

Maybe you need to find a way to incentivize pauses to reflect and look around, or to disincentivize flat-out action without reflection. An idea I have considered without finalizing is expanding the utility of the Evaluate manouver.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Ah! I see the confusion now. "Observe-Orient-Decide-Act" is *military jargon for a standard and practical decision loop. Basically "normally", you'd look to see what's going on; figure out how you fit into the current situation; decide what the best next step is; and then take that next step.

Since the "Observe-Orient-Decide" is done by the players at the table, each round basically consists of Action on the part of characters.

So I was treating the general lack of in-game "OOD" of "OODA" as one issue, as the acronym describes a single system.

The OODA loop is explained in the blog post, but I can understand not wanting to read an entire blog post to understand some not-great house rules. :)

Also I was basing the idea off of other game system, which typically limit number of attacks per (longer) round.

Thanks, GURPS, for making me dislike other systems oh so slightly more through my own blunt-instrument house rules. :P

* I am not military; just have an interest in military history and science fiction.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

This observation:

makes for an interesting framing for some kind of rules-based adjustment. I understand your initial purpose better now, I think.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Thanks for taking the time with my not-that-good house rules.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Three remarks, unrelated:
1) I do not see any justification for the time...thing being a function of the number of combatants. If two groups of three pair off and fight, there's no reason for those sub-fights to be less intense for the presence of the others. (I find I tend to view the determination of scaling factors like this with intense suspicion. I don't believe I'm wrong to do so, but it's worth mentioning.)

2) It seems like you probably intend that "non-discrete" actions are, in a sense, really components of a larger multi-second action defined by one "discrete" action? If so, you might want to say so explicitly.

3) Of the "discrete" actions listed only one of them is a thing GURPS would tend to say takes one second. Picking a lock and driving a vehicle to a place are both longer than that pretty much all the time, and Intimidation probably usually is as well. 1 second lock-picking likely entails a -10 penalty...

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

1. Typically, it's not a matter of who's paired off, but who do you need to keep in your "awareness space"? In addition, a team tends to fight as a team, with each member taking on distinct responsibilities, but all working together - and thus, needing to be aware of not only each other, but members of the enemy team.

2. Yeah, pretty much; on both counts.

3. Yeah, I did not design the time component well, there. Perhaps the last second of picking the lock would be the discrete action, while the remaining 59 seconds or so would be non-discrete actions.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

How about a house rule that says for every third round past the fifth without a Concentrate (Observe) maneurver characters suffer cumulative penalities on things like defending from side hexes, Tactics rolls, etc.?

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

This would work quite poorly with basic Magic and somewhat poorly with any other time-limited magic. That's assuming that you still count FP expenditures by the 1 second Turn. If you fiddle Spell Durations and maintenance intervals to match Melee actions that might be a different problem.

Soem characters really don't stand around ;looking at stuff while they make up their minds what to do. Their "tactics" are already decided upon. I present as an example Nyx the Barbarian.

What Nyx is going to do every round of comabt is either Attack with a Flail in a TA to the Skull or Move to set up such an attack if she's killed everyone within flail's reach. Oh, and she's going to do this scary fast because she has an Item that casts Great Haste on her.

These things are baked into the character and you're just excluding this character concept from your game. This would be your right as GM but Nyx's player would pout.

It might also disrupt gun combat. Gun combat is one thing Gurps does comaprativley well becaue it uses realistic ROFs. Soem characters might jsut stand in place while they look at things but msot should be moving whiel they look of delay their observation phases until they have achieved hard cover. WWI type machine gunners with water-cooling and long belts also attack somewhat like Nyx for long seconds at a ime.

I also don't quite see the point if PCs and NPCs stand around looking at stuff symmetrically. If Moves and Evaluates and other non-Attack Actions aren't hapening in the added time, The added time appears to be msotly a phantasmal addition.

You say there is time being spent but it doesn't affect wehat's happenign in the game except for Spell timing and other time-based measurements like vehicle speed. Be they chariots or airplanes vehicles do not stop while a command and control phase is taking place.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Martial Arts addresses this somewhat via the rules for flurries. There's also a Pyramid article somewhere where every action requires spending "Action Points" which eventually need to be replenished by taking certain maneuvers like Evaluate or even Do Nothing. When I've run mock combats to test the "Action Points" idea, though, it felt like it could use some more baking, so to speak.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Moving and evaluating are both things that can happen during non-discrete actions. In fact, I explicitly listed movement in the examples for both Discrete and Non-discrete Actions.

Your Nyx the Barbarian's strategy would not happen in this theoretical game, no; but basically any house rule is going to advantage, disadvantage, allow, or disallow some characters. So frankly, I don't see this as an actual objection.

Your other points are good ones.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

That (action points) also feels like something of a blunt instrument. "You cannot act until you look around, even though there's someone trying to stab you in the face."

However, Donny Brook has a good idea that could be combined with Action Points that I'll address next.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

I like this. The rate of accumulation needs testing, but I think this could be really good combined with the Action Points suggested by Michael Thayne - that is, taking said penalties after running into the negatives for Action Points, and based on how far into the negatives you are.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

I'd suggest keeping them separate, but possibly using both. Donny Brook's suggestion addresses 'you lose situational awareness if all you do is focus on one thing.' (speaking of which, I'd make those penalties not apply to the one thing you're focused on even if, say, that one thing moves into your side hex.) Michael Thayne I think is referring to "The Last Gasp" (Pyramid 3/44) which is an expanded fatigue system that covers getting winded by flurries of high-intensity activity, and the kind of handful-of-seconds breather that makes a difference there.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

that's not how it works. You start with Action Points, usually equal to your HT, and then spend them for a while Doing Stuff. If you do too much stuff, too fast, you have to stop and take a breather. If you run out of AP, you can still act, but you burn a FP to replenish AP.

In many GURPSy fights, it doesn't last long enough to burn through your AP. The 12-14 AP most line combatants have is good for five to seven rounds of combat unless you're doing a lot of All-Out, Rapid Strike, or other 'burst of energy' activity, or - as written - sprinting around the battlefield like a particularly hyperactive ferret.

I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not). But it never has behaved as suggested (look around before you can do anything). The purpose of it was to organically introduce lulls and flurries into combat (which it does, by all reports) by having a currency.

It also allows using an outlast strategy, where a very fit fighter with high HT and/or other purchased advantages to pull what is effectively a Rope-a-Dope: making the other fighter wear themselves out faster than you, after which their options are extremely limited.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Potentially, but I'd contest that that doesn't scale upward the way you have it. If there's dozens of people on the field it's a sure thing that most of them aren't keeping track of or coordinating with most of the others on a micro time scale. (If there are hundreds, either they just aren't coordinated or a significant chunk of them are staying out of the fighting to do the coordination.) In active close combat it's probably impossible to keep track of more than maybe half a dozen people at once and taking time to improve awareness would be both ineffective (you don't have room to see what's going on anyway) and extremely unsound (because taking your eye off the people trying to stab you right this second for a larger picture gets you stabbed.)

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

If all you are doing is Action, then you are going to lose focus on the "bigger picture", which is exactly what Donny Brook's suggestion is talking about.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

That does make a lot of sense.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

And yet, the post that I responded to, was talking about pairing off a few people in a small fight.

Going from there to dozens is a different scale, entirely.

And yes. If people are breaking off into smaller fights, then you could just play out those smaller fights on whatever scale.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Yes? I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm pointing out that what Michael Thayne is talking about isn't about losing focus. It's about physical fatigue and aerobic exhaustion and such. That is, precisely what Douglas Cole (the author of the system in question) pointed out.
Seems like much the same to me, except that at the larger scale it becomes completely compulsory rather than merely possible. Each person isn't dealing with the whole picture at once, but a small subset of it. (Which might overlap with other people's subsets.)

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

...I don't see a problem with adapting Action Points to a different purpose, though? Or maybe that part wasn't clear...
I don't actually disagree with your point; I just didn't quite get how it fits as a response to what I posted, that you were responding to.

A small fight generally involves teamwork. Large groups generally involve small teams.

The scale goes up that high because, for example, an artillery commander might need to take into account a much larger battlefield than Platoon #123.

My post wasn't clear in a number of ways. It could have used quite a bit more refinement - excluding that the idea isn't that good in the first place. And that lack of clarity has caused additional confusion. So yeah, that's on me.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

I had no idea you meant adapting them, no...

I think there's two reasons not to.

First, I don't actually see what they usefully represent for you. Donny Brook proposed counting rounds since you last took a situational awareness break as it were. That makes sense to me, your information goes 'stale' over time. But using 'points' implies you can burn or recover awareness at different rates depending on choices you make, and...well, can you? What would make you spend two points instead of one?

Second, you'd presumably be tossing basically everything in "The Last Gasp", since that is in fact a system about HT/FP-based physical stamina, and you're modeling something that is not that. So what's to adapt? Unless you just arbitrarily re-map the system to different attributes and claim that rules written for budgeting exertion work equally well for budgeting attention.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

I think there are a few things in "Dodge This!" in Pyr 3/57 (I believe) for budgeting attention.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Note that that artillery commander doesn't need to consider their larger battlefield in great detail though.

I think what you're really looking at is the slower reactions of larger units, due to information having to move up through more layers of command, and orders to move back down through them. However, while those things are moving, subordinate units and individuals are still acting (hopefully), and still doing things at their normal tempo (again, you hope). The battle only looks slower as you add more men and units because you view becomes more remote.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

So, kinda annoyed, here.

I already agreed the idea in the original post is not that good.

Why are the baseball bats still being applied to the dead horse?

Why are people still arguing with me about an idea I already agreed is bad?

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Ummm... You do know this is the internet, right? :P

- Shane

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

True. And I probably shouldn't have argued back.

...but some of those people were 30% wrong! :P

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Has anyone brought up the common house rule that when its your character's turn, you have to act or ask quick technical questions ("how does X work/I want to take her weapon away, what is that called in GURPS?" NOT "is an attack with the sword or the mace better against my opponent given my stats, injury level, and the curse which was cast three turns ago?") or your character chooses Do Nothing?

In a complex fight, the GM can answer player requests for information with "ok, choose a Concentrate manoeuvre and roll Per or Per-based Tactics or Soldier." Fright checks, Suppressing Fire, and "ok, you circle around the floor to try to get into a window in the other wing. Everyone else mark off 2d rounds from your main weapon." can also be good ways to slow things down. Its not perfect, but the reasons why people sometimes do a lot in three seconds and other times not much in three minutes are complicated.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

The thing about the OODA loop is that it generally doesn't have to complete or reset them until something significant changes or you try and do something significantly different. e.g. if you pull a knife on me once I've O,O & D I then A (and do you) I can likely keep on "A-ing" until the situation is resolved without closing the loop and going back to OOD Unless something significant changes

As such I would handle it with perception rolls (to spot a change), waits (to pre-empt a change) and traits that improve reaction time and resistance to being caught flat footed e.g. basic speed, Tactics skill and CR (to adjust to changes quickly and get to A in OODA as quicker) in Game.

I might even bring in self control rolls tied to certain traits like pacifism reluctant killer etc that would come in when transitioning between orienting and deciding or deciding and acting for some acts. e.g. some people find it easier to defend and retreat from a recognised threat than attack a threat back (and that also depend on what attacking back entails)

however:



I think the initiative rules could do with a bit more details (or potentially newly introduced changes should trigger the again in teh context of responding to the new thing, but this could get fiddly). And perception rolls should run teh gamut of time and effort devoted to them between a "free action perception" all the way up to an "All Out perception" But being in one OODA loop even if you are continuing a series fo A's, does make completing a new one harder.

I.e if you are in the middle of reacting to an ambush, reacting to a new threat is harder. But again you could do things like giving perception roles a doing two thing at once penalty, plus you less likely to pause or break off and make one if you are in the middle of a taking other actions

But the initiative system is bit all or nothing, you are either fine of standing slack jawed for relatively long in game periods.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Good point, for me that's pretty much standard practice, and I've never run games (GURPS or otherwise) where combats have been games of chess without timers.

Even leaving aside trying to achieve the effects we're talking about here, there's the practical issues of fights taking up too much table time!

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Do Nothing seems far too punishing, especially on players that don't have the ability to process and think quickly. For that kind of situation there's usually a 'default' assumption the character will do; A fencer with no good openings defaults to All Out Defend (Extra), the archer might default to Vitals Shot to the closest enemy to give them some room to breathe, and in a recent game the party wizard would use Soul Blast which was a powerful corrosion IA with Emanation and Selective Area to just blow everything apart other than allies if no other options presented themselves.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Actually, unless a stun is involved, Do Nothing is not as punishing as you think. You can still take any Active Defense if someone attacks you.

To be physically stunned two things generally need to happen:
1. A “major wound” of a single injury of greater than 1/2 your HP occurs.
2. You fail your HT roll when 1 occurs.

For a mental stun either Total or Partial Surprise needs to occurs.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Which is significantly worse than Do Something. Even just a Move can do a lot for a turn. I'm not sure in any way where Do Nothing might be worth doing over AoD (Dodge) which is basically the 'do nothing' of my players generally speaking.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

I think maximara's point was that "Do Nothing" suggests in some people's mind literately doing nothing. But in GURPS you can still defend (and thus retreat, sidestep and slip), you can step IIRC. I'd certainly allow reasonable perception rolls.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

That makes sense, but what I was responding to was someone saying "If your players aren't fast enough, they Do Nothing on their turn" which is incredibly punishing to players not equipped to think quickly on their feet while also remembering everything their character is capable of. My suggestion was 'have a fall back plan'. Even if the rule was 'If you aren't fast enough, you AoD (Dodge*)', that would be far superior and even make sense in more realistic fights (people unprepared to fight well tend to over-rely on surviving vs winning).

*Dodge is picked because unless you are built to use another defense very well the bonus to a defense that won't go down with repeated use and always gets +3 when retreating makes you harder to get hit than the other three options. AoD (Double) is usually better with high skill dual-wielders/shieldbearers with WM.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Yep something like a default SOP when nothing else comes to mind.(a good idea in general IME)

On the at the table point, my experience is that most players who are actually that hesitant generally fall into one of two groups:

1). the new player who really is not sure about the choices available to them. And yep definitely I'd give them extra leeway here (they're not choosing to hesitate and they're not going to have much fun otherwise if I force them to act)

2). the master chess player who want's to expertly craft their response like they're playing a turn based strategy game with out a timer. and that's not how I run my combats.


NB: this is just how I run my games, not some one true way or anything!

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Exactly.

In GURPS Dodge is an Active Defense and can be performed under Do Nothing even if you are stunned. Dodge, Block, and Parry are all available.

I should mention that Basic Speed determines the order combat happens in. So a 4.25 beats a 4.00.

Here is what would happen with a reasonably competent GM:

GM: The orc (has a 4.25) swings his ax at you.
Player: (Character has a 4.00) I Do nothing.
GM: Ok. You can Dodge, Block, or Parry his blow. Which do you do?
If the player continues to freeze then GM whould choose the best Active Defense (which would include All-Out Defense) and have the player roll against that.

The only Maneuver that prevents you from doing an Active Defense is All-Out Attack.

As the D&D to GURPS page on the GURPSwiki points out:
"Combat in GURPS is fast in terms of game time (a second). A D&D 3.0+ combat round is 6 seconds long (6 GURPS turns) and an AD&D 1-2 combat round is about a minute (60 GURPS turns). For this reason it is best to have a general idea on how skilled a character is regarding combat skills in relation to the D&D combat round because in GURPS terms they are pathetic."

Speaking of D&D: "These hit points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors." Elsewhere it is flat out stated "As has been detailed, hit points are not actually a measure of physical damage, by and large, as far as characters (and some other creatures as well) are concerned."

So even in D&D the character isn't just standing there if the player is in Do nothing mode - per the hit points they are Dodging, Blocking, and Parrying blows. All GURPS is remove that abstraction so you don't have the silliness of Tiamat unleashing all five of her breath weapons into a fighter's face, the fighter surviving, and then introducing Tiamat to his Hammer of Thunderbolts. A variant of this nonsense was outlined in "History of a game that failed" Dragon #99 (July 1985) and was quite possible with the way D&D hit points worked back then.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

1) Yep, that's what I worry over. I don't know the rules well enough and I've been using 4th since a year after it came out and some 3rd back in the day, so I'm not going to expect the players to know it well.

2) I and the one player who do know the rules the most plan things out during other players' and the GM's turns so that we can take into account of possible actions so that by the time our turn comes up, we already know what we want to do. I'm actually glad for this player because the others get to see cool new ways to use basic items.


EDIT:
But when would a player do this? Wait and AoD are strictly better ways to 'do nothing'.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

As someone who started with D&D, the idea that "hit points directly correlate with actual injury soaked" and "everyone just stands around for 6 seconds, and makes one attack", were never actually RAW or RAI.

You duel for six seconds, and make one *effective* attack. Or you're attacking at range, meaning you aim for 2-5 seconds (depending on whether you take a Move action or whatever), and make one attack.

Anyway, back to GURPS. :)

Also, just to be clear, I'm agreeing with you. :)

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

I think there is a sliding scale here, I'm not literally talking about running stuff at the 1 second level at the table top (this would be impossible anyway for practical reasons) and I don't think you think I am! And my experience is is player tend to be planning out what they will do as the action unfolds at the tabletop at a much slower rate than the second by second time frame being describe.

But the play style I'm trying to avoid is the one where players spend a long time when it's their turn to intricately plot (often involving a lengthy OOC conversation amongst themselves) out what they will do often from a top down position of situational knowledge in what supposed to be a second by second chaotic combat in often chaotic and unknown situations.


Other then my sense of desired verisimilitude, there's also a practical concern (for me anyway). Combat resolution takes time even at the best of times, anything I can do to reduce extra time being taken is (again for me) a good thing.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

I absolutely agree. I'm glad my players like to throw out answers to each other, even if they aren't good answers ;) As for the players who want to play chess, remind them that both ETS exists and that everyone will frown really hard for someone taking it

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

I started with D&D too but it was OD&D followed by AD&D1 before going to the AD&D-GURPS magic hybrid that I have updated so D&D3.x and 5e people can use it (D&D 4e is just too much of a PITA to deal with)

That 6 seconds combat round points to D&D 3.x which came out in 2000 (with the 3.5 tweak in 2003)

As I pointed out AD&D1-2 (1977-1999) has insanely long combat turns compared to GURPS. Yes, that 60 was not a typo.

I was fortunate to get the now very rare Dragon magazine CD-ROM back in the day (if your Google-fu is strong copies can be found on the internet) and it covered The Strategic Review (Spring 1975) to Dragon #250 (August 1998) So it knows only the 60 second long combat round with its 6 second segments, not the far saner 6 second combat round that came with 3.x.

You wouldn't believe the number of articles and letters that did have the "hit points directly correlate with actual injury soaked" idea or basically stand around for 60 second to do your x number of attacks (even in that version at high enough levels classes had more then one attack in a combat round though that 3/2 thing was pain).

The really funny thing is many of the ideas provided in those magazines to fix AD&D1-2 showed up in far more useful form in GURPS.

Want to actual implement the ideas in "For King and Country" (Dragon #101)? GURPS Religion has you covered and then some.

Want a better way then what was in Dragon #51 (July 1981) to make the AD&D1-2 Monk stop sucking? GURPS Martial Arts has you covered. Heck, it is still useful with the 5e monk.

GURPS Blood Types curb stomps Varieties of Vampires in Dragon #25 (May, 1979) and so on.

I still have the CD files (Mac's spotlight is so much better then what the CD offered) and it is an interesting step back to versions of AD&D most people today are totally unfamiliar with.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

A suggestion: Instead of punishing a player who take too much action, reward a player who does a do nothing roll.

What can a do-nothing action do?

- Give time to ask questions.
- Give bonus on defense (+1, so no AOA)
- Give bonus on next attack (+1, so no evaluate)
- give the option to make an information roll about something (Is the enemy hurt, what is his weakness, etc).
- Can move around.

The idea is that PC automatically will take do-nothings because they're useful. Maybe do-nothing is not a good name.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

The old game Aftermath! had an action that I've always thought was worth putting into lists of possible actions in games, and it seems worth using here. It could be assumed that a non-forced 'Do Nothing' is also this.

Some of that is system-specific and can go, but the idea seems sound - spend a turn looking round and possibly saying something more than a short, simple sentence, and you get to not have to make Perception rolls to notice obvious things that aren't right in your face, etc.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Yeah I like that concept (never played Aftermath)

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

The Action Point system is a big help there. I also think maybe if we required stuff like a # of concentrate maneuvers to use skills like tactics (along with all the potentiall rerolls it optionally provides) it could also push pauses.

To add some randomness to the AP (Last Gasp) system you could appropriate the "Lulls" idea for 3e's compendium 2 (pg 81) except to "Press" during a lull should merely deplete 1 AP instead of 1 FP, so it's not such a huge gamechanger, just a quirky setting feature. It doesn't tire anyone any faster if they're taking restive actions, but will tire them faster if they avoid them.

To deplete AP faster (thus encouraging more pausing) you can also opt to ignore the free step / free pivot built into last gasp. Charging for those will require a lot more Evaluates / Do Nothings to recharge the AP.

Observation rolls 'round the board are too crunchy for many but I like the idea for helping to RP the knowledge limitations that happen in the fog of war, the speedy heat of battle, to keep things away from metagame tactics.

One idea that just came to mind... given that "Do Nothing" allows you full defensive capability (unless of course you're stunned, then you defend at -4) what are your thoughts on something along the lines of an "All-Out Do Nothing" to give you either +2 or +4 to the usual HT+4 roll a normal Do Nothing gives, in exchange for losing defence capability? Similar to the All-Out Concentrate?

Plus maybe a middle ground like "Committed Do Nothing" where you take the defensive penalties of Committed Attack for either a +1 or +2 to the HT roll?

The idea being that the usual DN with it's "I'm keeping alert for attacks" is kinda stressful and not as restive as it would be to entirely tune out.

I know that DN's HT+4 roll has an "if uninterrupted" disclaimer meaning you wouldn't recover AP if you had to defend yourself (doesn't seem like that applies to Evaluate's HT roll though?) but you're still basically keeping an eye out for them so it might be cool if there was a reward for zoning out and being less defensive, like with sleeping.

Probably shouldn't be an option if already stunned though since you're already taking huge penalties to defence in which case you're not trading much.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Another vote for forcing perception rolls. There is a blurb in tactical shooting that outlines the basics.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

The information roll to know about something is I believe a Concentrate maneuver against the relevant skill (or Per to just get a good feel of the battlefield). 'Can move at full move' is a Move maneuver (or Move and Attack). The others seem like other maneuvers already available.

I don't mind Do Nothing being a maneuver, especially in the context of it being 'forced' from stun or to avoid getting knocked out from low HP. I dislike the idea of using it as punishment.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

As written Do Nothing can't be a punishment as the character still has access to all defense options and is at a -4 only when stunned which has pretty high requirements to meet. As i mentioned before only All-Out Attack prevents a defense.

I really suggest taking a good look at the Maneuver table on the GURPSwiki and note what options each Maneuver gives.

I say this because there seems to be this misconception that Do Nothing means the character has gone into 'deer in headlights' mode and just stands there as the opponent pounds on them/cuts them to pieces. That is not what happens with Do Nothing. I agree that perhaps Do Nothing should have been called something else - perhaps Stand Still.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

That is a beautiful example of the kind of thing which restarts the OODA loop: "I thought we were just shoving around, but he drew a knife! I need to observe that, orient myself, decide what to do and act. What, his his buddy has me by the leg! I need to observe that, orient- now I am bleeding, I am bleeding more, my left eye does not work, I am on the floor being kicked in the teeth, I am passing out." Alternatively, people try to repeat what they were doing before the new information presented itself, which usually ends badly ("I lunge at him again and try to make him kiss the table! I am bleeding from my belly, my right hand does not work.") Remember, Boyd was a theorist of air-to-air combat trying to understand why some fighter pilots are so much more lethal than others.

If anything, Do Nothing is generous. People often freeze in combat when presented with the unexpected, losing the ability to make Active Defenses.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

I'm not saying you don't get no defenses with Do Nothing (and I don't think I ever implied that). I'm saying that it's a terrible choice to make compared to any other maneuver, and strictly worse than many of them. As written there is zero reason to pick it at all, especially when Move, AoD (Dodge), and Evaluate are right there. The punishment is 'You didn't decide fast enough so you pick the worst maneuver', regardless of what the maneuver is called.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Even before Last Gasp gave it a better HT roll than Evaluate for recovering Action Points, there was the tiny aspect of it being the only thing you could do to avoid unconsciousness rolls when at negative HP.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

True and I did touch upon that, but that's also pretty close to a 'forced' action where you are doing it due to a circumstance largely out of your control.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Do Nothing does not put you out of cover where Suppressive Fire or a Wait gets you killed. It does not bring you closer to dangerous opponents or away from allies who you are covering and being covered by. It does not interfere with your Active Defenses.

Its just fiddly to represent all the different reasons why so many people spend so much of a fight doing nothing, and to give game-mechanical benefits for spending a second observing the situation (like The Last Gap to represent that Do Nothing is less tiring than Move, or house rules about how much information the GM gives the players to represent how people in a fight spend time trying to figure out what is happening and choose a next move).

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Yes, I do agree there can be situations where Do Nothing might be appropriate. But considering they've never come up with me as a player or GM, I still see it as a punishment for forcing players to do it.

As for the second part, yes house rules (which I sort of put Pyramid articles under) can change things. But I already use Concentrates and Evaluates for letting players gain knowledge since at least some of that is intended (Kromm talks about using a Concentrate and an appropriate skill roll to do things like figure out how much damage a foe has taken and what thresholds of HP they've crossed).

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

What if, for taking a Recovery Event (Do Nothing, Evaluate, or Wait manoeuvre), a player can gain extra action points when they make a successful Perception roll, Tactics roll, or other relevant "OOD" roll? Provided the roll was for something useful, and does not turn the event into a Strenuous Event, as determined by the GM at the time.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Don't you ever have situations where someone is doing a long action (typically moving behind cover) and most of the other actors duck down behind solid cover for a few minutes?

I am saying that in the Basic Set Do Nothing does not accomplish anything, but it does not make the situation worse either. In real fights, a common reason people don't do anything effective is that they don't see an effective action, or that action is more dangerous than they like (stepping into Reach of someone with something sharp and pointy, moving out of cover) or it is blocked on someone else doing something.

This is sort of like Time Use sheets: without house rules characters will be far more effective at self-improvement than most human beings, but introducing those house rules is not punishment, its just switching the tone in a gritty/slice of life direction.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

If everyone is hunkered down behind cover doing nothing at all for minutes and there are enemies out there, that seems like an open invitation for them to outflank or assault your position while you're not defending it. (If there aren't enemies out there it's fine but tracking things in combat maneuvers is a bit odd.)

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

If they have the ability to hide somewhere for minutes, then we're no longer in combat time.

Yes, and from what I've seen (both personally and not) is that the person goes on the defensive. Whether or not AoD actually makes a difference is based on their numbers, but people who don't know how to fight 'do nothing' by putting (what they perceive as) survival first. Considering what you can do during AoD (Dodge) lines up perfect with what the average person is doing;

1) Running away (either half move from AoD or Move maneuver)
2) Staying put or stepping

The main situation AoD doesn't quite work is Change Posture, but Dodge and Drop might already be getting them there, too. Although I could see improper Waits never triggering which after-the-fact look like Do Nothing.

Mind, you also have to take into account of the common Combat Paralysis and Surprise. Both can very well emulate why a normal person is actually doing nothing useful.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Uh that "spending a second observing the situation" seems to be covered by Evaluate, Aim, or Wait (effectively a special form of Do Nothing) depending on the situation.

I'm starting to get a real 'wait I'm confused; what was I fixing again? Oh look a puppy.' vibe from some this.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

I have no idea what you're

SQUIRREL!

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

That makes perfect sense. Also, did not know Waits were not secret. Welp, time to change up how battles work.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

From what I remember from karate class, someone waiting for you to attack is very obvious; it's just a matter of who has the most patience (or in a real fight, presumably, who cannot wait).

Some anecdotes: Your opponent's arm will be slightly out of place, but are they feinting, or is there an actual opening you can exploit? And if it is a feint, can you still take advantage of it? Their feet are slightly out of sync with their arms, but you can't move in to capitalize on it, because you're slightly too far back. And so on.

A lot of RPGs are much more static than "actual" (practice) combat, including GURPS (albeit to a lesser extent than most). The circular motion you get in any fight that goes for more than 2-3 seconds just doesn't generally happen (in RPGs).

Also, this thread has managed to dig up memories from many years ago. :)

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

While Karate was a single style in GURPS Classic Martial Arts there are clear variants in GURPS Martial Arts (4e) so your experience with what ever variant you learns may not be true for all variants of Karate.

See the GURPS wiki's GURPS Martial Arts for a long list of the styles in both books.

Also cinematic styles such as Ranma 1/2's Musabetsu Kakutō Ryū aka Anything Goes Martial Arts (effectively a beefed up satire of Jeet Kune Do) have a Wait state that give the impression of not being ready at all.

While most of the "Techniques" in Musabetsu Kakutō Ryū are jokes that would work only on the very gullible (Hey, look a 10,000 yen note ie about $9 US behind you) the style there has some really insane ki manipulation techniques.

I originally wrote up Mousse for 4e using GURPS Classic Martial Arts and have fully brought him up to 4e on the GURPSwiki

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Yes, "magic martial arts" that don't work in the real world will be different.

As for real-world martial arts, watch some matches of various forms of martial arts. If the initial exchange does not result in a win, I have rarely seen a pair of martial artists not start circling.

As for the rest of my statements, position, timing, and footwork are the core of every single practical martial art, and you will not find a single practical martial art that does not use them. These three things; position, timing, and footwork, are recognizable in every single real-world practical martial art.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Waits were not secret? It is the last maneuver for Combat Lite (Basic Set pg 325) so I'm not sure how anyone could think it was a secret.

Side note: Anything on page 336 and below (Characters) is accessible to the players. Now 337 and above (Campaigns) could be considered the GURPS equivalent of the DMG but as mentioned Combat Lite is in the Characters section.

Now the advanced combat system - that is in the Campaigns and personally I tend to avoid it as it can get D&D4e levels of bogged down if you or your players really aren't familiar with the Combat Lite version of the GURPS combat system.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

This is why the list of Martial Arts style over on the GURPSwiki is setup the way it is - techniques as much as skills are what really make a style.

Per the Belt system in GURPS (Classic) Martial Arts some styles take far more work to get to the "black belt" level then others.

For example, Kyokushin has 3 skills and 12 techniques while Isshinryu has 3 skills but only 8 techniques so it is slightly harder to get to the 15 in all skills and learn all techniques for black belt status in the former then the later.

Kalaripayit at 13 skills and 4 techniques is a real "ouchie".

Do "black belts" in radically different styles really circle each other or that something that people at the lower levels do?

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Evalute is vs a single, attackable in melee target (optional rules aside). Aiming is very specific - it only works vs a target you've been aiming at, so it's useless for detecting targets in general (and given the concentration required to aim effectively detecting anything that doesn't enter your LoS or is otherwise very obvious should come at a penalty to Perception). Wait presumably lets you roll to notice things, but note that what using Wait for Opportunity Fire, you have to roll (well, the GM rolls) for something as simple as "Is that guy a friend?", and taking the option to do so costs you -2 to Hit if you take the shot.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Tactical Shooting chose Concentrate for the maneuver to take to establish situational awareness. I wouldn't call that a necessary conclusion from Basic but it does seem reasonable.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

As Concentrate is a catch-all for mental actions, and Campaigns even mentions using it to locate an invisible foe, that's sensible.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

It's been over twenty years, to establish a time, since I took karate; I no longer remember nearly as much as I did. This thread has helped bring some of it back, though. :)

However, I still watch various types of sparring videos on Youtube, and the circling seems universal. In cases where circling does not happen, they re-engage. Or the initial clash turned into a grapple; in which case arguably the initial clash didn't end.

As for an explanation why; I don't know. It may be due to a natural instinct to try to get to the side or behind the opponent; it may be out of a hope that you can "pull" the opponent into making a mistake.

Note that this is explicitly for one vs one; if there's more than two combatants, simple circling seems a lot less likely.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

Points to Shotokan Karate Black belt Men Sparring - Charleswood vs Lac Du Bonnet IDSL 2012 as a counter example. And Karate-Do Shotokan Sparring (Kumite) is another.

There is Circle sparring but from what I have seen of it, it doesn't have actual circling.

Re: Fixing round length in GURPS
 

In the first video, Red Gloves starts at 0 degrees and Blue Gloves starts at 180 degrees, designating towards the referee's starting position as 90 degrees and directly opposite the referee's starting position as 270 degrees (arbitrary designation of angles, and ignoring position), by 39 seconds, Red Gloves and Blue Gloves have:

1) Rotated to 90-270.
2) Rotated *back* to 0-180.
3) Rotated to 180-0 (the opposite facing of which they started).

This video proves, not disproves, circling. The second match starts with them rotating to 45-315 before a single blow is thrown. I rest my case on this video.

In the second video, coincidentally Red Gloves is at 20 and Blue Gloves is at 200. The angles can be used as stated, with 90 degrees being towards the referee's starting position and 270 degrees being directly opposite the referee's starting position. By 6 seconds into the video, Red Gloves is at 180 and Blue Gloves is at 0. They then spend the next 9 seconds moving between 180-0 and 135-315. The match ends.

The second match sees them rotate to 150-330 before the first blow is thrown. They then rotate to what looks like 110-290 before rotating to 10-190. The next exchange occurs from 330-150 to 350-170 - and breaks apart into 330-150. They then conclude at 70-250.

And that's 54 seconds and the second match ends.

I'm just going to watch the rest of the video without analysis and if you have a particular match you feel proves your case, please tell me the start time and end time.