Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

If a wizard fails the contest of wills to gain a wish, the demon attacks him. Page 143 says, "Pentagrams will not protect the wizard in this battle of wills – though a good pentagram would prevent the demon from smashing anything else after he finished off the wizard!"

How is it possible for the demon to attack the wizard when it can't cross the pentagram and it has no ranged attacks?

I suggest this clarification:

If there is a pentagram, the wizard must be on the same side as the demon for the contest of wills to take place. So if a wizard summons a demon into a pentagram, the wizard must enter the pentagram with the demon in order to gain a wish.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

I read it as a mental contest. The wizard's body is untouched but burns into ash.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Or perhaps the 'battle of wills' is an abstraction for determining how secure the wizard's pentagram really is. If the demon wins, it means they found a flaw which makes the wizard vulnerable to attack.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

The section on demon summoning does not come across as thoroughly playtested, since there are obvious contradictions. I don't use these rules as written, but as a cursory guide. I also prefer the demon stats from the original ITL.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

The blasting to ash part only happens if the wizard is killed, which isn't guarnateed: "Failure means the demon attacks him! If the wizard is killed, try the same IQ contest again. If this roll succeeds, the wizard may be revived after the demon leaves (see Death). However, if this roll is also failed, the demon will blast the wizard to ashes, permanently and totally killing him."

The rules indicate that the demon won't necessarily succeed in killing the wizard and since the rules don't give any reason to think a demon can make a mental attack (only fists and weapons are listed as attacks for demons), I think the attack has to be physical.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

The text indicates that the demon does not find a flaw in the pentagram because if the wizard dies, the pentagram still prevents the demon from smashing anything else: "Pentagrams will not protect the wizard in this battle of wills – though a good pentagram would prevent the demon from smashing anything else after he finished off the wizard!"

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

I think my suggestion might resolve all of the contradictions...

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Except that is not how pentagrams are ever used, at least to my knowledge.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

I assume that pentagrams in TFT provide two levels of protection... the most obvious one is physical, but the flaw I am referring to would be related to the mental barrier. Losing the 'battle of wills' means the demon fries the wizard from the inside out (picture Scanners).

Getting inside the pentagram would be a very bad idea.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

That should be on a T-shirt!

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

TFT demons ain't from hell. They're monsters from the Id. Losing the contest of wills (against yourself) is suicide.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Exactly. Steve realized he had reduced the expected IQ of wizards, and also seems to be a bit less severe than he was in the original edition, so he reduced Demon IQ AND softened these contests... but yeah, he didn't playtest them or analyze them enough to realize this allows relatively risk-free Wish generation by people with enough resources and preparations. Or he assumed that wasn't a problem, and/or would be handled by GMs who did think it was a problem.

And a GM who does see it as a problem can of course change whatever they want.

But yes, changes are needed.

The part about the pentagram not protecting in the contest of wills is left over from the original version, where losing the contest means you die, no combat, and get to roll another such contest to see if you can be revived, or if you're a pile of ash.

I would tend to either use the original system, or develop my own invention for how it works and what demons are really like and what their abilities really are. Because I want wishes to be very rare and special things, which don't get industrially produced and mostly don't ever come into actual play, because it risks a very rare and powerful wizard to have even a chance to produce one.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Could this perhaps salvage the procedure. I offer it only as a possibility.
Allow the contest of wills as written, but allow a +5 bonus to the IQ of the lesser demon or demon and impose a -5 penalty to the IQ of the wizard. It could be claimed these are the result of the hostile and alien mind of the demon and the effects it has on the wizard. It should make it much harder to obtain a wish. Just a thought.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

That's effectively a 10 point bonus/penalty, which may be too much. Rather than have demons be so predictable, why not give them a minimum IQ (10? 12?) and randomly adjust it upward--say by 1d or 1d+2?

You'd still have the issue of the demon blasting the wizard across the barrier of the pentagram. Here's one way to deal with it that approximates what happens RAW: the lost contest voids the summoning and the demon returns to its own plane, to which it immediately summons the wizard, who, now bereft of the pentagram' protection, is instantly executed. If the wizard wins the second contest the demon throws the cadaver back into our plane, where it could theoretically be resurrected.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

The reduced IQ is just one of the issues, but yes, adjusting the IQ or effective IQ would help, and I like the idea of each demon having its own IQ which can vary, because it reduces the predictability.

Another main issue is that the new rules just say the demon attacks the wizard, which has at least three issues:

1) As mentioned, how that's going to work given the usual use of a pentagram, is not clear.

2) Even if you say the wizard has to be in the pentagram with the demon, it doesn't say you can't have prepared a small army and/or other wizards ready to take out the demon, which would be reasonable for an industrial wish-farming operation to do.

3) Even if you say the Demon gets to act before anyone else and the wizard must be attackable, it's just a 4d attack, and there are ways to survive, avoid, or recover from that which are worth investing in if you get to farm wishes.

The original rules avoided these by having the contest of wills result directly in death or being turned to ash, with no intervention possible.


This subject has been gone over before here, and we came up with several creative other ways to handle it. Some I liked included:

* Demons even more randomized with even more personality and varied abilities. Some are better at the contest of wills.

* Each demon has unpredictable types of things they can grant. Not all of them can grant wishes.

* On failure to control a demon, it may teleport away before you can respond, and do unpredictable mischief.

* Summoning a demon introduces you to a specific demon, who will remember you and develop a relationship with you that may become steadily more problematic over time, especially if you keep summoning demons.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

If you don't blow your DX roll, the demon is your summoned creature and getting inside the pentagram is safe. Starting the contest of wills is inherently unsafe and according to the RAW, pentagrams don't provide protection from that anyway.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

The legacy version says the wizard can survive the demon's attack.

Skarg's points are good in with respect to the problems raised by the new framework but I think it's consistent with the overall softening of the system, especially since anyone can buy a lesser wish for 500XP.

These are good considerations if you want to change what seems to be (to me at least) the current intent of the system.

My suggestion is just a fix for how a demon could arrange to attack the wizard while in a pentagram which is currently not possible with the RAW.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

I'm definitely enamored with the idea of summoning specific demons by adding the demon's true name to the incantation as the spell is cast. With their true names normally being closely guarded secrets that only rarely become revealed. When a demon introduces itself, it only gives a nick-name, preferably a humorous one.

Good thing I read this forum because in looking at the new ITL I somehow overlooked the changes in demons and wishes! Lesser Demons granting Wishes (even these new Lesser Wishes) is kind of a big change. I'd drafted an adventure that would introduce a pair (yes, a pair) of twin Lesser Demons that would be funny, constantly bickering with each other, and have recurring roles in future adventures, having "befriended" the players party and given them their true names. That now might be a very, very dangerous idea! I had no intention to be handing out a Wish any time they got called in!

Once again I'll either have to abandon a good idea or (drum roll please) revert to the original rules! Seems like this has been going on a long time -- since 1980 in fact! LOL!

Meanwhile, I don't like the new demon stats either and want to keep the old, much higher IQs. I've always thought of them as genius-level magical creatures that know all the secrets to Life, the Universe, and Everything. They just never share that knowledge with mortals, except by obtuse references that only imply how the universe might work. IQ 9? Oh, I don't think so.

A different way to handle the contest of wills (which needs to be fixed no matter how you look at it) would be to have the wizard and the demon each roll against their respective IQs, and whomever made their roll by the larger margin wins. (If both failed the rolls, which is really unlikely, just do it over -- the mental battle takes a second turn.) Lots of other ways to do it however the GM prefers.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Another possible answer is that the wizard, having initiated the contest of wills between himself and the demon, has invalidated the pentagram's protection for himself.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

How would that work, since demons don't have any ranged attacks and the wizard could run away?

Would the demon get to teleport out of the pentagram but only attack the wizard and have to be careful not to accidentally break anything or hurt anyone else?

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

I really don't think a demon needs to physically touch the wizard to destroy them (although most would probably prefer a more 'hands on' approach if they have the option). They do have the ability to alter reality, after all.

TBH, I think the implied mental invitation would provide sufficient access to the wizard which I think is what warhorse11h is getting at.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Demon summonings should be roleplayed.

Well I remember a player, safely in a pentagram, summoning a demon.

I had the demon appear, wearing a spell of invisibility, just outside the pentagram. The demon then tiptoed over to the door of the room and knocked, while calling out "I am here o master, open the door that I may enter and serve thee."

Yes, the player character walked over to open the door.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Now that sounds like an IQ challenge to me.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Sure, this could be a house rule but there's nothing in the current rules to imply that sort of capability. The rules don't allow for demons to use their own wishes or any magical powers at all, for that matter, other than teleport.

I've always been a little disappointed at how relatively powerless demons are when it seems like they should have infinite variety and all kinds of weird powers.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Another thought, since it is a contest of wills, one might consider that it is a mental contest of the wizard trying to compel the demon to do his bidding and vice versa. If the demon wins, the wizard is forced to break the pentagram. The demon can then politely request the wizards autograph or rip his head off as he sees fit.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Thanks, Tippets TX, that is what I was getting at, but a different thought has struck. ITL LE pg 80 says that a demon may not enter or leave a pentagram or attack across the border of a pentagram. But that leaves what seems to be a valid question. Does a teleporting being pass through barriers or simply disappear from one place and reappear in another? If so, can the demon escape to attack the wizard by teleporting out of the pentagram. Also, a pentagram cannot stop a physical attack from a non-magical creature. So, if the demon materializes outside of the pentagram and picks up the party's barbarian and throws him at the wizard standing in the middle of the pentagram, does the barbarian hit the wizard and knock him out of the pentagram, or does he stop when he hits the pentagram?

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

You had me at "picks up the party's barbarian". ;)

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

I'm thinking the wizard must not like his friends very much if he summons the demon outside the pentagram without inviting those friends to step inside with him first.

"Hey guys, you stand over there while I get inside this circle here -- now wait 'til you see what I'm bringing you!"

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

No. Teleporting is the standard way demons move. So there would be no reason for the rules to mention wizards using pentagrams when summoning demons if they were near-zero obstacle to them. Therefore, clearly pentagrams block teleportation across them.


Yes. That's why the standard approach mentioned is to summon a demon inside a pentagram. Of course, one might also assume a pentagram blocks a wizard from summoning across it, unless the wizard himself is inside the pentagram too. If it also blocked the contest of wills, and especially if the contest of will involved having to be adjacent to the demon, that would help a bit, but still a 4d attack is vastly more survivable (especially with the Legacy dying rules) than the original result of being immediately killed.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

For teleporting, I think the key point in the rules is that a demon cannot leave a pentagram. Doesn't matter how it tries to do it.

The rules do say a demon can use weapons so if there were any ranged weapons (like rocks), it could use them to attack across the pentagram since they're nonmagical.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Good idea to rule that pentagrams interfere with the contest of wills -- that's a simpler way to say it.

Precluding summoning into a pentagram, though, would make it not really function like pentagrams are supposed to, so it should be renamed if that's the case.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

The rules indicate that the demon can be summoned to the interior of the pentagram or the wizard can conduct the summoning from the interior of the pentagram. The variable for this is the reason for summoning the demon. If it is desired for the demon to fight or search, then it has to be outside of the pentagram. For questions or granting wishes, it makes more sense to have it inside the pentagram. Either way, Skarg's suggestion seems to work better than other suggestions, barring a complete revision of the whole procedure.

Making the wizard move to the same side of the pentagram as the demon to conduct the contest of wills and allows the attack if the contest is lost by the wizard and may also allow the wizard to escape if he can either get out of or into the pentagram before the demon can kill him.

Seems like a workable solution to me.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Wish Inc. Your local wizard's guild has a production line for wishes. A summoning chamber with a permanent pentagram and a wizard wearing +5 fine silver plate and a permanent diamondflesh ring and an army of apprentices for ST. producing multiple wishes per day and bruising the knuckles of many a demon.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Another reason why I prefer the 'Scanners' result. No amount of physical protection will prevent a demon from burning out the wizard's mind.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

I dropped the Wish Generating Goblin Village because Evil Stevie didn't want to see it. Should I finish that and show you every silver of the $10k production cost for a greater wish?

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Next question from the peanut gallery. Can a demon or lesser demon grant himself a wish? If so, could he then use said wish to do triple damage on his strike against the wizard who had the temerity to summon him?

If so that would seem to elevate the chances of the wizard not surviving the attempt and making it less likely to try.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

I say no, but then again I've never cared for the default genie-esq presentation of demons in TFT. My demons prefer a more hands-on approach to granting wishes... evil doesn't spread itself, you know.

Reminds me of this older thread...
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=160641

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

I have to admit, while I found this topic interesting, I have never had it come up in a game. In fact, I don't think anyone ever got a wish in any game I was involved in. While there were a lot of magic items back in the day, I was a little too free with them, they were all found in dungeons, etc. as artifacts or treasure. None of the people I played with ever expressed an interest in opening a magic shop or creating magic items. We were always more interested in murder, mayhem and thievery. I suspect that in any future game wishes will be even more rare than a +2 broadsword or a scroll of lightning.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Yes, that and many other setups can be used to make the Legacy RAW version effectively risk-free.

Exactly. Although I also prefer the creative unpredictable variants we thought of before, because they make the dangers unknown and less predictable.


The pillar cave village seems more like a gamey silly rule-based joke concept to me, than something I'd want as a real thing in my game worlds. Seems to me an offended demon would teleport out, steal a petard and come back and cause a well-deserved cave-in wiping out the place.

But given it is possible to overpower a demon, an observation about how much theoretical money could be made on industrial wishes might be interesting. Not to mention how now I'm sure you would expect all your "typical wizards" to end up st ST 14 DX 14 IQ 20 after only 200 XP as a goblin, or 700 XP as a human.



Yeah, if they could, the RAW lesser wish triple damage attack could be harder to survive.
Though if the RAW "instantly heal all a living character’s wounds, diseases, etc., bringing him back to full ST and health." is allowed, combined with the new Legacy RAW death rules, it makes surviving any amount of damage "super-easy, barely an inconvenience!" ... which to my mind is crazy for a game supposedly involving serious risk of consequences in combat, but whatever.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

I already know I should say no to this, but, by all means, go ahead.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Ancient goblin wizard scholar Tekaanshar flipped through page after page and compared each tale of woe and disaster against his notes. They all matched. Every single time. His postulate must be true. And if true there was much gold to be had. To test the assumption would be madness, but putting the question to the test would answer it quickly enough.

The reply to his letter arrived a few days later with an invitation to address the Grand Master herself. She looked over the letter in her hands then asked him, "This village, it will be safe against demon attack?"

"Yes, Dharonghec. We need only keep everything precious out of reach."

"Against a being who can move anywhere instantly?"

"That isn't blocked by solid stone."

"And what would keep the demon from attacking elsewhere?"

"It will never know where to attack. If I am right and I must be, there is only one way a demon can know anything of our world."

"And if you are wrong?"

"We would discover that quickly, but at ten thousand gold per success it is worth it."

"Very well. What do you need to prepare a presentation for the Chancellor?"

"An appointment with the royal architect please. He is found of crafting traps so should be intrigued at the chance to design an entire village to be a trap for a single being of great power."

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

A demon supposedly can be bound to a place. If it's also inside a pentagram in that place, it's effectively stuck permanently, and harmless to anyone outside that pentagram. This would be one angry demon.

Under these circumstances it must be possible to demand a wish and enter the contest of wills any time anyone wants to. There would be your Wish factory.

This is why the risk of losing the contest of wills must stay very, very high, even for the highest IQ wizards. Unless of course you want a steady stream of wishes for sale in your world, which I sure as heck would not.

But wait, even under those constraints there is still an out! You bring captured, enemy wizards to the place and force them to try the contest of wills on pain of torture, death, or harm to a loved one. It simply becomes a way to execute prisoners, except that once in a great while the prisoner will get lucky, win the contest, and produce a Wish for you. Then you can execute the prisoner <evil grin>

It will never be high volume production, but if you're going to execute a wizard anyway, it becomes free to try.

But if the demon ever gets loose, you don't want to be anywhere near the place at the time.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

By the gods, that was a terrible suggestion! (Can I make an ad hominem attack on myself?) Here's a better alternative wherein there is only one dice roll. I'm assuming the original demon stats for these examples (IQs 16 and 20).

Let x = (demon IQ - 10). For a Lesser Demon that's 6, and for the Greater Demon 10, unless you use variable IQs.

x is the number of points the wizard must roll below his or her IQ to win the contest. That could be expressed as roll (IQ - x) or less on 3d6.

Examples:

An IQ 14 wizard enters a contest of wills with a Lesser Demon of IQ 16. 16 minus 10 is 6. 14 - 6 = 8. The wizard must roll 8 or less. Very bad odds there: just because IQ 14 is enough to learn the summoning spell, you're going to want a few more points before demanding a Lesser Wish.

An IQ 20 wizard tries a contest with the same Lesser Demon. x is still 6. This wizard's IQ - 6 = 14. Therefore this wizard must roll 14 or less to win. That's rather do-able, but never absolutely certain.

An IQ 14 wizard wants to try against an IQ 20 Greater Demon. x is now 10 (20 minus 10 = 10). 14 minus 10 is only 4! No IQ 14 wizard would survive this unless they rolled automatic success.

An IQ 20 wizard wants to try against an IQ 20 Greater Demon. Demon IQ of 20 minus 10 = 10. So subtract 10 from the wizard's !Q and that result is also 10. This wizard must roll 10 or less on 3d to win the Greater Wish and avoid death, a hair under a 50% chance. Dangerous indeed! (I believe 50% was the success rate for an IQ 30 wizard under the original rules).

Note that for each point the wizard's IQ goes up, or the demon's IQ goes down, the roll gets easier.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

A loop-hole I'd forgotten all about is the 1 in 6 chance casting an illusion of a demon brings a real one (that then attacks the wizard -- but only if it's able).

Well. A Greater Demon illusion only requires IQ 14 and costs 3 ST. A Lesser Demon illusion is even easier and cheaper.

Cast this illusion into a permanent pentagram, and 1 time in 6 you get a guest from which you can a demand a Wish any time you feel up to a contest of wills. Try it every day and you'll get a chance to try for a Wish slightly more often than one per week!

Any single high IQ wizard could run a Lesser Wish factory this way. Greater Wishes not so much because it's a much riskier contest of wills.

Not sure I like this loop-hole one bit!

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Illusion generated demons are already as out of control as the failed roll demons so already hostile and no wishes.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

GMs should always roleplay demon summonings. The demons should be played as being as smart, nasty, sneaky and well equipped as possible. Also, the GM should start things off simple and let the players figure out what is going wrong.

For example, demons cant cast magic. Doesn't mean they cant be using magic items. So.... demon is summoned ( roll is of course made by the GM, out of sight of players). If it works, the demon arrives, wearing an invisibility ring. Just tell the player that they see nothing happen and ask what they are doing. At the end of a minute the demon goes home, unless the player does something clever or stupid. Of course, if the player is inside the pentagram because he wanted the demon to go get something for him and thinking his spell failed he steps out of the pentagram before the minute is up.......

A very nasty demon summoned into a pentagram shows up wearing an invisibility ring and carrying a petard, which he lights the one second fuse on and drops just before poofing out at the end of his required minute. The GM simply rolls damage and tells the player how much damage he took. If it kills him he gets no further information. If he lives, he is given a description of something appearing inside the pentagram followed a second later by a huge explosion. Nothing more. Its up to the player to figure out what went wrong.

Players should be utterly terrified of summoning demons if the GM is doing his job.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Thanks, that occurred to me as I trundled off to bed -- that's what I get for posting when I'm drowsy!

You do have to successfully summon a demon to give it any orders, and the accidental 1 in 6 demon does not represent a successful, deliberate summons.

Keeping us all safe from a plethora of cheap Wishes -- hurrah.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

That's a bit extreme for my taste. I agree completely with the admonition to roleplay the demon though. I'm working up a few quirky ones myself that should make things colorful and a bit extra fun.

But just blowing up the player's wizard doesn't sound like much fun for anybody, and hardly fair within the rules.

If the wizard had failed the roll, the demon would arrive anyway and try to kill the wizard -- that's the RAW. But when the wizard makes the DX roll, it should be safe. The wizard won't always make the roll, and a pentagram (if used) won't always hold, so there is already always a risk to summoning demons, and even when it goes perfectly there's another great risk for asking for a Wish.

By all means give the demon a personality. And if the demon is uncontrolled, sure make its attacks interesting rather than run of the mill bare hands attacks. And the GM making the DX roll without revealing the result cleverly adds more drama -- when the demon says "Yes master, what is your command?" it could be uncontrolled and just acting to trick the wizard! Or "You really should ask me for a Wish -- I'm having a 3 for 1 special today!" makes a cute lie :)

But if the demon is controlled, because the spell was a success and the wizard's roll was good, sudden death by Holy Hand Grenade seems kinda arbitrary. Sure flavor it up with some complications, but they should be problems the wizard should get to act upon, with some chance to solve!

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Another problem with this idea is that, great, your illusion is in a pentagram as requested. That doesn't mean that any real demons who also show up will also be in that pentagram.


Yeah, I take it as a compliment that none of my players ever went anywhere near trying to summon demons. Only a very few tried to even go hunting dragons.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Excellent point. An illusion has to show up in the exact hex the wizard wanted, but the rules are silent on where the accidental, 1 in 6 real demon lands.

Be fun to apply something like the scatter rules, rolling for an offset from the intended hex. And if it lands outside the pentagram, so be it! That'll teach wizards not to expect the benefits of a summoned demon for only the cheap cost of an illusion.

Re: Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills
 

Mhmm. If you summon a greater demon into a megahex-sized pentagram, there won't even be room for the real greater demon to also appear inside that pentagram. I'd tend to think that since the real demon is showing up on its own, it can probably more or less choose where to show up.