Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

I don't think any argument that it meant "not a clone, a person delivered by caesarian, or a person conceived immaculately or by artificial insemination" is going to fly outside of a comedy, so I don't think you're going to be able to get away from the "born as a citizen" interpretation, particularly given that there was a need to give the likes of George Washington an exception ("or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of Adoption of this Constitution"). The question then becomes, if you want to avoid a Constitutional Amendment (or a functional Judicial Amendment, and all the problems that could cause), if State Legislatures could specifically grant someone "natural born" status, or if Congress could enact a law that allows one to gain "natural born" status by other means (as previously noted, being a citizen for 35 years or more seems like a fair option). I think with ASB tweaking and the laFayette precedent, one of these options could work, and be much easier/less problematic than the alternatives.

Note the important thing here isn't that whatever hoops one goes through be correct, but that they be something the public will accept enough not to raise a really big stink over it.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

One can split the difference and demand a period of residency in immigrants. Or some similar buy in (Daddy Bush issued summery pardons to illegal aliens who had served in the Gulf which is effectively a buy-in requirement).

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Yes, constitutional courts don't like to look partisan, but "this action does not fall into this forbidden category because we legislators say it does not" is the kind of thing constitutional courts stamp down hard on, because if they don't they have no power at all. Courts in countries with old constitutions can make some peculiar rulings, but when there is a whole system of clauses which allow immigrants to obtain some offices but not the presidency, they don't have a lot of wriggle room.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

For the matter of that, last time I looked it up pretty much all children are born artificially. And come to think of it even Mary contributed a little to it when you think about it.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

My thought was that Ted Cruz could be the catalyst for a court case if his 2016 candidacy had progressed further. Or I could propose a candidate in 2012, depending on which would more likely produce a case that was being argued in the Supreme Court at the end of 2018 or beginning of 2019.

In the real world, courts normally confine themselves to the least potentially controversial argument that yields the desired result and a court would thus merely confirm Ted Cruz's eligibility without addressing the issue for any other potential candidates that do not share his exact circumstances of birth.

Influenced by ASBs, however, judges might be inclined to use the case to establish a precedent on the constitutionality of the natural-born clause or at least insert a statement into the obiter dicta that could be used to justify the view that the discrimination between two classes of citizenship was incompatible with the Constitution as it was currently understood. See Perkins v. Elg for a case where the court specifically addressed the eligibility for the presidency in a case where they had no pressing legal reason to do so.

In any case, while I agree that the best interpretation of the intended meaning of the phrase 'natural-born citizen' at the time of the framing of the Constitution would relate it to the 'natural liege' of English Common Law, making foreign-born children born to citizens 'natural-born' in this context, the idea that courts always rule according to perfect jurisprudence bears little resemblance to the real world.

Even without Alien Space Bats, there is always a non-zero chance that the result of a court case will be what the judge thinks should be the law, regardless of whether it is.

In any case, the authority of Congress to define the term 'natural-born citizen' seems fairly accepted by legal scholars, given that Congress did do so in 1790 and then, by implication, in 1795. Neither Naturalization Act was ever successfully challenged on the basis that Congress did not have the power to decide what 'natural-born citizen' meant.

Congress explicitly rejecting any substantive legal difference between 'natural-born' and other citizens, justified on the basis of the Enforcement Clause of the 14th Amendment, would be explosively controversial among a narrow subset of the population, i.e. constitutional scholars. How controversial it would, in practice, be among the general voter, I do not know.

Would it prevent any citizen benefiting from this change from having a chance at a presidential run in 2020?

Even an alt-Schwarzenegger with Charisma 5 and Politics and Public Speaking at 20+ (before Reaction modifiers)?

Pretty much a basic precondition for this change point is that in the years since alt-Schwarzenegger's Governatorship of California, he has become the most popular, respected and influential figure in US politics, all the more so because he has more-or-less successfully* managed to navigate a statesmanlike middle ground only available to someone not currently holding political office.

Without the obstacle of needing a potentially controversial judicial decision, legal statue or constitutional amendment to be eligible, any political analyst would have predicted that should he have run, alt-Schwarzenegger was by far the most likely candidate to win in 2016 and would win in a historic landslide in 2020.

In my campaign, because that obstacle has still not been fully eliminated by the end of 2018, he is still regarded as unlikely to run for 2020. However, a decade of ceaseless efforts by Alien Space Bats on his behalf has created a situation where it is just barely conceivable that by the time the legal eligibility requirement for 2020 becomes inescapable, alt-Schwarzenegger will fulfill it, somehow.

I'm looking for what would seem the most likely method of that change coming through. And the Alien Space Bats would absolutely have numerous simultaneous schemes ongoing, where the ideal case would see a constitutional amendment ratified long before alt-Schwarzenegger secured the Republican nomination, but in the less than ideal case that this is not successful, they'd accept a controversial Congressional statue or even an unlikely and shocking verdict by the Supreme Court widely considered to be judicial overreach.**

*With his Alien Space Bat enhanced uber-Politics skill and the stratospheric effective Propaganda that his team can muster for favored causes.
**But ideally focusing public ire more on the less well-known figure used as a stalking horse in the test case, rather than alt-Schwarzenegger. Obviously, there would be those who would nevertheless by influenced by what they perceived as an illegitimate candidacy, but the ASBs would be hoping that paranormally-enhanced alt-Schwarzenegger would still be so much better at campaigning than other candidates that this would merely reduce what would have been a landslide victory to a narrow one.

Constitutional Amendment Before 2016
 

I have an idea for how things might have gone. We might suppose that before the 2016 elections, alt-Schwarzenegger managed to gain enough support in Congress to pass a constitutional amendment allowing naturalized citizens to be eligible for President, as long as they fulfilled some kind of residency requirement*, but that this Amendment was not ratified in time to allow him to run in 2016, allowing the Trump vs. Hillary contest that we know from our world.

At the end of 2018, there are still several (and possibly, numerous) states that have not ratified the Amendment. As a consequence, the majority view is that alt-Schwarzenegger will not run in 2020, but an increasing number of voters views this as a bad thing. However, rivals for the Presidency tend to be in favor of anything that prevents such a very popular candidate from challenging them in 2020, so there is a lot of opposition from their camps to ratification.

Because ratification is so difficult and unlikely to succeed, the Alien Space Bats are also pursuing numerous other routes to their goal, including lobbying for legislation and covertly supporting a series of court cases designed to challenge the existing 'natural-born citizen' clause.

The Equal Opportunity to Govern movement is spearheaded by numerous younger politicians than alt-Schwarzenegger, who has never yet publicly stated an intention to run for President, although he has made qualified and carefully-curated statements in support of removing any vestige of second-class citizens in US law, as long as this is done legally and democratically.

Now, things I'm looking for are:

a) Suggestions for what might be the most serious hold-out states in the ratification process.

b) Suggestions for suitable supporters of an Equal Opportunity to Govern Amendment among real politicians, celebrities and influential people. This should to at least some extent be a bipartisan movement; with Republican supporters of politicians like Ted Cruz, Marco Ruhbio and Bobby Jindal, as well as moderate/centrist/left-wing Republicans who want alt-Schwarzenegger to run and both Democrats and independents who support it for idealogical reasons and/or because they have a favored candidate who faces criticism or challenges because of perceived or real ineligibility.

c) Suggestions for court cases that might have occurred between 2010 to 2019 related to this movement, their results and any details that PCs should hear about or know. Also, crucially, what controversial court cases related to this subject are dominating the headlines at the end of 2018 and beginning of 2019?

*If 14 years is not perceived as enough, the 21 years proposed in early drafts of the Constitution (before the 'natural-born citizen' clause was inserted) could be chosen.

Re: Constitutional Amendment Before 2016
 

Any states controlled by ideological conservatives (Texas is the first one to come to mind). Not only would they object to the idea in principle, the obvious connection to a potential candidate who's viewed as a RINO/"fake conservative" would make a lot of Republicans balk.

Re: Constitutional Amendment Before 2016
 

Indeed.

Which is why I've proposed Ted Cruz as a secret ally of the Alien Space Bats.

Also, probably at least a potential Vice-Presidential candidate for alt-Schwarzenegger.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Barack Obama, after finishing his second term, becomes a Constitutional-reform lobbyist, campaigning for change with various other parts of the Constitution, but in particular campaigning to remove the political weapon that his opponents tried to use against him during his candidacy. "So what if I *had* been born in Kenya - such things shouldn't matter in this day."

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Considering he also had an American Mother, it would have been identical to Ted Cruz's case though, right? A Natural Born Citizen no matter where he was born.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Yeah but there the issue if he hand only been a couple years older there would have been argument of but Hawaii wasn't a state at the time.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Children under 18 acquire US citizenship automatically (by law, without needing an application or other process) if and when:

• They have legal permanent resident status ("green card")
• At least one parent is a US citizen by birth or naturalization
• The child is residing in the US in the legal and physical custody of a US citizen parent.

https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship...hrough-parents

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

I guess, but the issue seemed to be important to birthers at the time. But the advantage of Obama leading the campaign is he has more "authority" on the issue than Cruz, who was only an unsuccessful candidate.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

The legal definition of "natural born citizen" is whatever Congress says it is. They have the power to create or change any law they want in this matter.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Not precisely. It's more in the category of "the exact boundaries between legislative and judicial power haven't been explored". There are a fair number of examples of that in US law, because both sides are reluctant to push the issue and have it clearly established against them (the political process will generally favor the stance which makes most sense to the populace).

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Obama's mother was a US citizen, born in Kansas. If I'm understanding things correctly, he would be a natural born US citizen whether he was born in a US state, a US territory (as Hawaii was until 1959), a foreign country (like Kenya or Indonesia), or anywhere else.

None of which really helps Schwarzenegger's case at all.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

I like it.

At the very least, he should have publicly supported the Equal Opportunity to Govern Amendment, which would have been passed in Congress during his second term as President.

Now, in the real world, I doubt very much that he would have, but in this one, alt-Schwarzenegger is extremely persuasive on a personal level. Without anything so overt as Mind Control, very high Reaction modifiers caused by Alien Space Bats boosting Schwarzenegger's Charisma and talents for politics* mean that there's a pretty good chance for him to convince anyone who isn't fanatically opposed to the idea that such a constitutional amendment is a worthy cause.

If we imagine that a bipartisan amendment was passed sometime between 2013-2016, who in Congress might have been particularly visible supporters?

I want to imagine John McCain being someone who was willing to cross party lines for something he believed in and I can see him being convinced by idealogical arguments advanced by alt-Schwarzenegger in private on this, using Diplomacy 18+ and Charisma 4+.

Who else?

*I'm assuming that real-world Schwarzenegger has Charisma around 2, as he has made several successful careers out of, essentially, people liking him. He also has Politics skill at a professional level in the real world and in the setting, by 2015 he was approaching master levels and at the end of 2018 has generational Politics and Public Speaking skills.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Citizenship has always been messily defined pretty much everywhere. There have been people born to US Citizen parents who have been found not to be citizens in actual court cases. Most of those loopholes have been closed since the adoption of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights - the 1948 UN treaty that asserts everyone has a right to a nationality - but it wouldn't surprise me if there are some left, and most presidential candidates are still people born before 1948. Exactly what constitutes "natural born" has apparently never actually been seriously tested in court.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Just a small question, but if Alternate Schwarzenegger is so much of a powerhouse he can make Democrats and Republicans work together, why didn't he win the presidency in 2016?

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Perhaps because he wasn’t eligible to be elected, and therefore didn’t run for the nomination.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Because the Alien Space Bats were not able to get the constitutional amendment allowing him to be eligible ratified in time for him to run in that election. That was obviously the goal, but even with paranormal assistance, alt-Schwarzenegger just couldn't see a realistic chance to win the Presidency in that election, not when his opponents could so easily use this legal obstacle against him.

The ASBs are more powerful in 2019 than they were in 2015 and they've had more time. Also, given how much increasing age affects perceived electability, the Alien Space Bats might be willing to consider methods that in 2011 and 2015 were rejected as too risky or messy.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

One of them effects younger nieces via my younger sister. My younger sister is natural born US Citizens born in the US but hasn't been in the US since before her 18th birthday so her children don't qualify for automatic citizenship

But the children of my older sister has lived in US after her 18th birthday, so her children are dual citizens

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

It is less age as growing dissatisfaction with the aging generation. As if that generation wasn't falling out of favor the age is instead seen as experience.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

The Constitution specifically gives Congress the right to legislate the definition of "natural-born citizen". A constitutional amendment is not needed. All that is needed is for the legislature to do its job and clarify the law.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

The constitution explicitly gives congress the power of defining a uniform rule of naturalization. It is generally accepted that this includes the right to define conditions (in excess of those specified by the 14th amendment) that allow someone to have birthright citizenship. That does not mean Congress has explicit authority to define natural-born citizen, except to the extent it interacts with the power to define naturalization.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

And while theoretically legal, extending birthright citizenship retroactively to someone born to foreign nationals outside the US would realistically be rejected on a massive scale. If the Alien Space Bats can get that through, they can probably just have him declared emperor by acclamation.

A constitutional amendment that repeals the requirement, or a finding that the 14th amendment already had, at least has a veneer of plausibility if you don't look too closely.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

A veneer of plausibility is exactly what I'm looking for.

The machinations of the Alien Space Bats* are explicitly supernatural effects. But because of the rules of magic in the setting, paranormal phenomena should be possible to rationalize as some natural, if extremely unlikely, course of events, or it becomes exponentially more difficult to bring about. So, a veneer of plausibility is enough for the effects to be viable as emblematic of magic in the setting.

Of course, the more plausible, the easier to do, which is why I'm looking for the path of least resistance.

*Which is just trope shorthand for whatever supernatural powers and/or patrons alt-Schwarzenegger has.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Why Schwarzenegger though? Any ASB would find it much easier to take over the mind of natural born citizen and use them as their puppet. I mean, there are probably 200 million people in the USA who fit the minimum criteria and who would not be completely unacceptable. Anyone with intellectual difficulties, physical difficulties that would make them incapable of enduring the rigors of the job, psychological difficulties that require ongoing medication, and/or felony criminal record would probably be unacceptable to the American people.

Bruce Willis would probably be a better fit. While there would be similar questions as Ted Cruz (he was born in Germany to an American father), he is a natural born US citizen. You would only need him to run for Governor of PA in 2011 (winning instead of Tom Corbitt) and then run for President in 2016. Heck, he would have probably won without any difficulty and, due to his complicated political views, would have been celebrated and condemned by each side of the aisle in Congress equally. By the 2020 election, he would have probably had a high likelihood to win reelection.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Because that's how the world he's placing this in is. Schwarzenegger is president. Ours not to question why, Ours just to do and die.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

To be clear, the 'Alien Space Bats' are a generic trope shorthand for supernatural powers and/or allegiances that Arnold Schwarzenegger has in this world.

It's not as if there some unified force of informed observers looking at the world from the outside trying to figure out a way to acquire a President. The goal is very much the goal of alt-Schwarzenegger, who in this world, at least, is extremely driven to become the President of the US and has enough paranormal power at his fingertips to at least make a run at it.

Actually, my campaign is currently on the cusp of 2019, i.e. about 15 months behind us, and Trump is President.

However, the various legislative, constitutional and legal issues surrounding the Equal Opportunity to Govern movement have been major political news for years and while alt-Schwarzenegger is generally considered ineligible to run in 2020, there are commentators who believe that he might run nevertheless.

These cite such possibilities as the EOtG constitutional amendment passed at some point in Obama's second term being ratified before the end of the campaign and/or the result of one or more court case will be that the discriminatory distinction between 'naturalized' and 'natural-born' citizens was made unconstitutional with the 14th Amendment.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Truth of this statement would be a sign that your ASBs can do as they please and might as well get on with the job.

Fairness for foreign-born celebrity-politicians is such a "WTF?" concept that Alt-Fred undoubtedly has a tin foil-lined hat already.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Would that honestly be the strangest political development that you can think of in the last 20 years?

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

If the measurement was disproportionate results to actual cause the answer would be "yes".

As I've tried to convey to you, while there would be few people in our timeline who would oppose this there would be no one in favor of it who was not planning to profit from an AS administration.

Now that I think of it I did hear the idea floated casually while AS was at the height of his popularity but the mention came from a political partisan who thought he might get a reliable GOP admistration out of it. The idea went nowhere and our AS' popularity declined sharply after an infidelity scanal and his leaving office.

You may find our current President inexplicable but there are people who really want this "Drain the Swamp!" concept carried out. It's most of the core of the "Run against Washington" trope. It's a message currently so strong that weaknesses of the messenger don't matter to the people who want it.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

I might disagree with the first part of that. I think there would be a lot of people at least passively opposed to this and a decent number strongly opposed.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

<shrug> We may have a problem of scale. Is a "lot of people" enough to fill a medium-sized stadium or 10% of the US population? You can fill a lot of stadiums and still not amount to much on Election Day.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

It gets floated for various people. In late 2001, there were Americans who wanted to draft Tony Blair, the then British Prime Minister, as the next US president. He gave a very eloquent speech to Congress shortly after the 9/11 attacks, and some people were overly impressed. I had to explain that he was completely ineligible.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

I noticed this at the time. I was puzzled at why he was less popular at home than he was here. I could name you several of our politicians who appeared more popular in the UK and other foreign lands who I at least would have traded away for Blair.

Perhaps there's some sort of analog to grass being greener on the other side of the fence.

Please note how delicately I am tip-toeing around actual political opinions and names.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

And then goes nowhere because it's an awful lot of work for not much benefit.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

He could be eloquent about almost anything. As people noticed that, it stopped being effective, and he didn't have much else to offer apart from overconfidence.
Yup!

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

The natural born citizen does not seem to be defined in the constitution, so that is the possibility that I see be it legislative or courts without requiring a constitutional amendment that seems fairly unlikely.

Basically Arnold himself could be the test case, make a try in 2016 and have him be struck down and then have the case work it through the courts in time for his 2020 run. His campaign message could then include the "The establisment tried to not allow you the choice of me, so show them wrong"

And the thing is.. influencing some other influential people to champion the cause publicly even before the court case could make the court decision seem more "normal"

Well the thing could have been settled before the election as suggested by my arnold2016 suggestion above.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

"I'm back!" surely.

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

yes, that would be a likely delivery of the message...

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

The meaning is clear enough. It's not a technical term, "birth" is not some legal process needing clarification from Congress as is "naturalization", and the phrase had an established meaning in English law before the US constitution was written.

Claiming that Congress has the power to redefine any English-language word or phrase in the document to some other meaning would render it meaningless.

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

Re: Schwarzenegger 2020: Equal Opportunity to Govern
 

Well, it does have edge cases and at least some of them are within the power of Congress to decide, but obviously ridiculous interpretations (by either Congress or the courts) are unlikely to survive. There are very few credible interpretations other than 'born a citizen', though you could make an argument that it only applies to those born a citizen as prescribed by the Constitution (i.e. only those granted citizenship via the 14th amendment, rather than those granted citizenship by statute), or some other slightly limited case.