RPM Problems You Have
 

Tell me what sort of things confuses you about RPM. Be specific please! For example, you are unsure when to add Altered Traits and when not to or how to create conjured weaponry.

I'm going to do something to alleviate some of these questions in the future and I'd like a good starting point, please.

(Please use bullet points if you've got multiple questions and/or want to explain your question more fully.)

Thanks for any who answer.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

I'm still learning RPM: it takes a little while to get used to. You answered the Altered Traits question recently on your blog, and my questions about scrying in a thread I started. Thanks again for both.

I found that it got a lot easier once I made myself a couple of summary sheets, which I'll send you if you're interested. It's also well worth keeping a log of (almost) everything I cast, so that I don't have to work out how to do it again a few sessions later.

There's a definite dichotomy between the approach to RPM where you work mostly in terms of sizeable rituals, of 50+ energy, and the approach where you mostly use smaller ones. Most of the published rituals are bigger ones, but I find it very rare that I can accurately predict what I'll need well enough to make Charms for big rituals, so I concentrate on smaller castings.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

Great points.

Yeah, that's always a good idea and it builds a grimoire up eventually if you do it enough. I'll take those summary sheets for sure. Thank you.

Another good point.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

You have e-mail.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

In order to save time when using RPM, I allow players to start with a list of common effects ('rotes') for rituals that their character commonly uses equal to their Thaumatology Skill (plus a number of additional rotes for potions equal to their Alchemy Skill). Rote effects receive a +2 to skill (in addition to any Ritual Mastery bonuses) while improvised effects receive a -2 to skill. Characters may expand their rotes at a cost of 1 CP per (Alchemy) potion rotes or 1 CP per (Thaumatology) ritual rotes, with a maximum number of CP spent on each equal to their Magery. So a character with Magery 3, Alchemy-15, and Thaumatology-15 starts with 15 potion rotes and 15 ritual rotes, and may spend up to an addition 3 CP each to gain 45 more potion rotes and 45 more ritual rotes.

After character creation, they must either learn rotes from other practitioners or research the rotes as well as spending the CP. In order to learn new rotes for their skills, they must spend time in hours equal to the base cost of the effect being taught by someone who has the desired rote and succeed in a Thaumatology (for ritual rotes) or Alchemy (for potion rotes) to comprehend the lesson (an instructor with Teaching-12+ gives a +2 to the comprehension roll). In order to research new rotes for their skills, they must spend time in days equal to the base cost of the effect being researched and succeed in a Thaumatology (for ritual rotes) or Alchemy (for potion rotes) to develop the rote (a successful Research roll and access to a suitable occult library gives a +2 to the development roll).

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

I'll be honest, all of it.

It seems to be overly-complicated. I've read the book more than a dozen times and still have a hard time wrapping my brain around it.

• The overall explanation of the system is convoluted.
• The decision of which paths are involved sometimes seems arbitrary (more on this below).
• The defining line between Lesser and Greater effect can be incredibly fuzzy.
• The energy costs are widely inconsistent for their effects. (Air Jet and Fireball are both 18 energy, but Ghost Shirt is 135?)
• Effects seem randomly, and inconsistently, applied. (Why doesn't Fireball have a range while Hunger does?)
• More time is required to define all the relevant rituals you might need for a game than would be expected, and creating them on-the-fly is extremely cumbersome.
• It really exacerbates GURPS reputation as being maths heavy.
• Pg 49. The Box: The "Right" Way gives me a horrible headache. I get it, but it makes my whole paths issue even worse. It confirms that the choice is arbitrary and there is no right way to do it. So, if you're having a hard time grasping the system there's no way to effectively check your work.

My final opinion of the system is "it's for specific types of games, which aren't the kind I play."

I would gladly read any book written to try to make RPM easier, however.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

1. I would like to see a deeper chapter for the Path of Daath.
   
2. I like RPM, but I think it is sort of expensive because it requires several “ingredients” to work. To me it’s been really hard making non-NPC hybrid characters (i.e. fighter-magician):

• RPM practitioners are more inclined to be dedicated mages (cost-wise):
  
• Path skills and Thaumatology, are very hard (expensive). It would be much better if path skills were average (cheaper to buy), let’s consider that you need to buy several paths, on top of requiring a good thaumatology level and supplementary perks and advantages (like energy reserves).
  
• The combination of a skill cap with the “need” of ritual adept and magery is kind of taxing. If you want to build an efficient character, then you must buy these. Magery 3 and Ritual Adept cost 75 CP. If you don’t have advanced magery, then your (expensive) skills are limited up to level 12 and if you don’t get ritual adept during creation, then your skills might frequently suffer penalties up to -15.
  
• On the other hand, you can build a warrior with combat reflexes and weapon master (2) for 40 CP and call it a day; if you don’t have these advantages, it does not matter, your effective broadsword and quick-draw skills shall work at the level you payed for. This warrior has more chances of focusing on his combat skills while remaining competent in other fields (including non-RPM spells).

I also think think that RPM, right now, "is for specific types of games".

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

My problem with the system is that all the math and calculations just don't feel like magic to me.

Now, I do like realm magic. I don't know why.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

I struggle to know what is a greater effect and what is a lesser effect. I especially struggle with knowing when to charge TWO greater effects as opposed to one.

I'm a little fuzzy on what sorts of things can be done without modifiers, especially damage and bonus modifiers (and also altered traits). I struggle more with explaining to players what they can do without those modifiers, and why. I know that you can track someone using their hair without a modifier, and you can transform a rock into a knife without modifiers, but I can't really explain WHY those things don't require any additional modifiers.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

I'll second this request. Several examples of what can be done with each of the Effects with just its base cost, perhaps a few in each Path, would be very helpful.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

Just to clarify a bit. Not using RPM because you don't get the system as a whole is not what I'm asking. I'm asking if there are specific things you don't understand about the system. If you don't use RPM because of X is better, that's fine. More power to you, but that's not going to help me at all in this thread.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

The only player that has tried RPM in my group did not like that there was more than one way to get something done: he likes dnd where there is only the spells already made and ;no way to alter them other than metamagic feats and casting at a higher spell slot. I think that the flexilbility is not for him


The lines between lesser and greater effects did not seem clear enough to either of us (I went with lesser effects are coincidental and greater effects are obviously supernatural in the end)

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

I second this.

I'll say that for me, the biggest issue I face with RPM is a lack of definition for creating different magical traditions. I know several different methods have been put out there, and they're all good, but I would like to see actual, consolidated rules for making, say, voodoo different than kabbalah different than celtic magic.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

My main issue is there is a lot to calculate. Doing it on the fly and slowing the game down can be handled by banning improvisation, but it still takes more work and time than most other systems outside of game time.
Reducing the page flipping by having all the numbers on one page or two facing pages would help. I thought someone made something like that though?

I dont find the math very hard, its the number of steps and components that have to be factored in.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

My main issue, pre-Raeki, was a lack of examples. But he did an amazing job working the entirety of GURPS Magic in RPM. I don't think there is anything lacking for GURPS Ritual Path Magic at this point, for me at least. PK did a fantastic job.

To respond to some comments:
It's generally time to add another effect when you add another thing the ritual does. Make it greater or lesser as needed. Frex, spell makes makes you explode with fire and immune to fire? One effect for explosion, another for immunity.

I find it only slightly more mathy, since basic magic still has you sorting casting costs and what not. This is just addition, so for me? Meh. Basic. For other less math-inclined GMs? Get a calculator for $5?

The biggest thing for me is that RPM feels different than other systems. I like that feel, so I like the system. Others may not and that's understandable. It is decidedly NOT DnD-like for sure. But that's a selling point for me.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

Thanks for making this thread. I really love RPM and it is a wonderful system for making your own spells in a coherent way.

Below are some questions I have wondered about myself now that I am running a campaign with a PC that uses RPM.

1. Why would a PC ever use a charm they made with a quirk? They know if the charm is quirked. Is it only time pressure that makes them maybe have to accept a quirked charm? I know if they try to make something too tough they will get a critical failure sooner or later, but that hardly seems like too much of a problem during downtime.

2. Are HT rolls to avoid death a narrow or moderate category of Bestows a Bonus?

3. When does a spell have to pay for damage? If a spell made a pit underneath the enemies 5 yards deep, would you have to pay for the fall damage?

4. What is the Racial Template point limit on Transmogrification? If you wanted to turn someone into an animal with a 5 point racial template, would you need to give Morph/Alternate Form as well?

5. I believe Altered Traits are supposed to be some sort of last resort, if what you want to do could be done a different way, is this correct?

6. When making Crossroads-based shortcuts- can you set the travel time to go through the gate at something greater than 1 second to save on the Speed spell modifier?

7. When is the Speed spell modifier needed? T:RPM says it is for movement spells, is that for moving anything? A spell that sent a message to a far off city would pay for Range, but would it also pay for Speed if it got there in one second? What if it were a physical letter being flung across the sky?

8. Would Greater Create Crossroads be enough to create a usable, wooden door in a stone wall? Do you need to pay for the weight of the door, or displaced stone? Do you need to pay for damage to break the stone?

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

Yeah, the feel is an important part of RPM for me and the main thing that decides if its used in a setting or not.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

I've never been a fan of the system. It's not a fault of the system, I didn't like the Mage: The Ascension system either, and the two share the same basic setup. I just am not fond of rule systems that are overly open-ended and where using them is basically a negotiation between player and GM every time.

To make RPM more palatable to me would require examples. Lot of example castings, with explanations of how they were worked out and advice on variants of each spell cast.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

I think that the default system is relatively straightforward, though there are issues that come up when people make them own Paths. For example, how would you classify lesser and greater effects for a RPM system based off the Western Zodiac or the Ancient Egyptian religion. RPM can do either, and much more, but GMs need to be careful with balancing lesser and greater effects and with balancing scope.

This problem becomes even more odd when you start examining more abstract or conceptual systems. Imagine a RPM system with the following elemental Paths: Air, Dark, Earth, Fire, Light, Metal, Spirit, Void, Water, and Wood. The GM would have to define the metaphysical scope of each Path and then give examples of lesser and greater effects. Right now, there is not much guidance on how to balance home grown RPM systems.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

I know this is aimed to the public in general, but just in case, in my post the main issue is that RPM as is, is hard to employ/play with if the setting is not designed for "RPM gaming". It is a great system (my favorite), but I have to walk an extra mile to have it work for the players.

In my experience (as a GM and as a player) the CP cost-benefit is relatively low when the setting does not exclusively revolve around magic (i.e. Harry Potter) as opposed to settings featuring swords (or guns) and sorcery.

Mages or hybrid mages tend to become the underdogs of the party if I don't give them bonuses. Especially at the beginning, you require a higher budget if you want to build a good RPM mage than you need for a regular (good) warrior. Of course, I reckon RPM lets you do amazing stuff, but you usually get to it until late-game.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

RPM is really designed for high-powered games (~400 CP), so it is not tooled for lower value characters (though it is not bad). A 400 CP character can easily afford IQ 16, Ritual Adept, Magery 4, Alchemy-16, Thaumatology-16, and 9 Paths at 16 (297 CP total). At that point, you have an individual who can maintain 20 conditional spells (plus possibly an additional 20 potions depending on the Alchemy rules), possesses an ER 12, and is capable of tossing down some serious magical firepower (12d fireballs are not unreasonable). A 200 CP character would have difficulty affording IQ 14, Ritual Adept, Magery 2, Thaumatology-14, and one Path at 14 (161 CP total). At that point, they have trouble doing anything beyond basic spells (6d fireballs are a safe maximum).

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

The first few items are not confusions per se . . . but are areas I feel are lacking

A - There are no example spell loadouts to take as an example and to provide grab and go utility. To clarify 'spell loadout' I mean something like
Wendy has Magery 7 and 19 Thaumatology giving her 26 slots. Normally when going about her affairs and ready for whatever slings and arrows of outrageous fortune may result Wendy has 10 fireball charms, 2 mage armor charms, 4 major healing charms, 2 create gateway charms, 2 create dancing shield charms, 2 lightning bolt charms, and a partridge and a pear tree charm. She leaves the other 3 slots empty in case of need.
I can, will, and have done spell loadouts, but it is far and away the most ugly part of RPM to me and is the least supported.

B - A method similar to Schrodinger's Backpack for loadout free casting 'I devote 20 conditionals to my charm bag, let me roll against X to see if I can pull out a Y'. Schrodinger's Backpack is one of the best articles ever and really handles 'do you want to spend an hour pouring over High Tech to decide whether Batgirl should carry a pack of matches or a glowstick in her bat belt, or what really does a Navy SEAL carry?', I love it and RPM sorely needs it.

C - (less important than A and B, since I have a very satisfactory solution myself, but I am curious about other ways of handling) Downtime charm preparation and long duration spells. I don't have confusion on this, I think RAW says you just roll it all out and the DM figures out how to deal with the resulting botches during downtime and whatnot, but passionate deities that is a horrible way to do it in my mind, so I'm interested in others take. (My solution roll nothing until it comes up for reals during the game, then roll it).

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

Yes, this is one of the things I am trying to convey, thank you!

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

The Good Reverend discusses in this post how RPM suits low-powered campaigns just as well as it does high ones.

But I worry that this is all straying from the OP's request for things about Ritual Path Magic we'd all like clarified,

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

Thank you for the post GD.

Forum, please try to stay on point with the posts. If you do not use the magic system, that's cool, enjoy what you use, have fun. But coming here to just complain is not the intention of the OP. This is for those that use it, love it, or want to use it and just need some clarification on rules or the overall system.

thank you

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

Hello I know I am not the Op, but it truly is not. Yes, I do run high level games of 800 and above, but its easily adjustable to fit lower level games. Also its your game, you can adjust the prices at will to fit your world. Yes a 200 CP character would not be the next Merlin or Harry Dresden, but you could make a PI with some spells and the ability to make others when needed and when he has the time, but focusing only on the Paths that fit his field.

PK's post linked above makes some excellent points on this.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

Ok, so sorry if this has been brought up elsewhere, but one of the things that confused us the most when we started using RPM was that you had to pay for everything. We would do Greater Transform Body (8) + Subject Weight: 300 lbs. (3) + Duration: 12 hours (6) = energy 54 (17x3) to make wings to let us fly somewhere. We didn't realize that all we did was create decorative body extensions that didn't give us flight, that didn't allow us an additional kind of attack, that didn't allow to buffet people close by with a 6d6, double knockback, no wounding blast of air. That in order to get all these you would have to pay for it, including the altered trait to grant us the flying skill as well a bestows a bonus in order to have that skill at more than attribute.

It would be great to see an exploration of the ubiquitous missile spell of the magic genre, the fireball, explored completely. From the simple 3d6 Fireball for 18 energy to the monstrosity 18d6, Homing, Greater 1/2D Range (so faster traveling), Explosive, Double Blunt Trauma, Double Knockback, Fragmentation missile with Cyclic sticky damage that has a Follow-Up, Area Effect cloud that causes an Affliction: Paralysis attack with a Side Effect of 3d6 of Corrosive Respiratory Agent... for 1,831 energy (approximately). Plus a few intermediate steps in between maybe. Plus ways you can't do things, and maybe ways you shouldn't do things because that cool effect will add only a little more damage for four times the cost.

So a full exploration of just one thing. Now this can't be done in print media, page count and all, but it could be done in a supplemental electronic media piece. I also know that RPM is a creative roleplaying magic system and it can be very rewarding to navigate through the rules, flexing them a bit, discovering sweet spots, and creating a ritual that you might not want to share, because it's cool and you made it. That's why I chose Fireball. I'm sure it's been beaten to death by everyone at this point, and no one will be giving away anything that secret. Besides, you can still keep the secret where you were able to gather all the right Correspondences so you can get that 1,831 energy ritual for 95% off and only pay 94 energy for it.

It also might be nice to do the same thing with a Super Soldier ritual, going from all Lesser effects that creates only a Slightly Better Soldier ritual, to the Irressistable Force ritual. I'm sure this one has also been done time and time again as well.

This would give people a great chance to see what can be done, how to do it, what not to do, without giving away every secret.

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

Thank you everyone who replied. This has been most helpful in steering my project. :-)

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

Looking forward to seeing it!
And for those not following the W23 Spec thread we know this is not his current upcoming book, announced as a DF Denizens project since RPM not part of that line and even more importantly its already in the editing queue.
So maybe his next project?

Re: RPM Problems You Have
 

I know about this, but it means you need to tailor the experience and walk an extra mile. You need a set of specific settings to have RPM work smoothly at low CP. It would be nice if I could play with RPM without bending rules and circumstances.