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-   -   What does "when worn" mean? (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=166911)

hcobb 12-30-2019 02:36 PM

What does "when worn" mean?
 
Daniel Boom is walking through the dungeon with a ring of Darkness on her finger and a dozen lit grenades in her backpack. She then takes a triple damage crossbow bolt and is dead as a doornail.

Do the grenades go off instantly, or just when the ring is removed from her cold dead hand?

Skarg 12-30-2019 03:07 PM

Re: What does "when worn" mean?
 
No, the grenades go off after lighting them when the fuse burns down, unless they are duds (at least 1 in 6 will be).

Darkness is not "fireproof an entire megahex radius per 1 ST for 3 turns, with an IQ 9 spell". If it were, there would not be an IQ 13 spell named Fireproofing, which is a Thrown spell (so more inaccurate), only affecting one subject, which costs 3 to cast and 1 per turn to maintain.

Darkness just suppressed artificial _light_ production. It doesn't stop the fire from burning - it just means the fire's light isn't visible. So there's smoke but no visible light, and I guess this guy thought that meant he could do your tactic, but instead the grenade blows up and sets of a grenade chain reaction.

If the GM actually wants to make Fireproofing (and many types of fire weapons) obsolete with an IQ 9 cheap wide area-effect spell, then they can run it that way and enjoy whatever antics that implies. Bad news for people who like the Fire spell, Fireballs, dragon breath, gunpowder weapons, etc., I guess. But yes it could be amusing what funny molotail and grenade antics you could pull off with it. If you really want that and also care about balance, I'd suggest adding a Suspend Fire spell of some sort for that purpose.

As for the question about "when worn", I'd say it would go out when the wearing figure is actually dead, not just dying. In original TFT, though, that would be when ST drops below 1. In Legacy TFT RAW, that'd be an hour after ST dropped below 0 (though some GMs may rule differently in some cases).

hcobb 12-30-2019 03:17 PM

Re: What does "when worn" mean?
 
Which spells and or creatures have infrared vision to spot active invisible flames in Darkness?

Skarg 12-30-2019 03:36 PM

Re: What does "when worn" mean?
 
D&D creatures who hopefully aren't going to import "ifravision" into TFT?

FireHorse 12-30-2019 03:51 PM

Re: What does "when worn" mean?
 
The text for Darkness says:

"Extinguishes all artificial lights (including Light spells) within its range."
and
"Torches, lights, etc., come back to life when the spell ends."

"Extinguish" and "come back to life" both seem to imply that it is indeed suppressing fire (not ending it, but temporarily suspending it), rather than merely preventing the transmission of light. The phrasing does invite that argument.

However, since the spell is named "Darkness", one might also argue (and I certainly would, if I were the GM having this argument with a player) that the clear intention of the spell was to target light, not combustion — and that this is just another example of unclear text that needs to be rewritten and clarified in future editions.

On the side, though… infrared light is still "light", and should be affected by Darkness (as long as it's artificial infrared light). And I would define "light" as "any part of the EM spectrum that is perceived by a lifeform through organs that a reasonable person would call Eyes" — which includes UV light, for everybody who can see that, too.

Correction: artificial UV light.

JimmyPlenty 12-30-2019 04:26 PM

Re: What does "when worn" mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2302395)
Which spells and or creatures have infrared vision to spot active invisible flames in Darkness?

Hopefully only one, just to be fancy. The whole idea of the spell is to be useful. Every creature that gets infravision lessens its impact.

Skarg 12-30-2019 04:38 PM

Re: What does "when worn" mean?
 
Darkness is extremely useful, especially for an IQ 9 spell.

The "it actially extinguishes all fires in a huge area" interpretation is so powerful that would make the IQ 13 Fireproofing spell almost a joke by comparison.

I think someone who wants magic that will let them keep a dozen "list but not burning at the moment" grenades ready to explode when the spell ends, should research a new Suppress Combustion spell, and if the GM decides it should exist, it should not be as cheap in IQ or ST cost as Darkness.

FireHorse 12-30-2019 04:52 PM

Re: What does "when worn" mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg (Post 2302415)
I think someone who wants magic that will let them keep a dozen "lit but not burning at the moment" grenades ready to explode when the spell ends, should research a new Suppress Combustion spell, and if the GM decides it should exist, it should not be as cheap in IQ or ST cost as Darkness.

I think that spell should be called Delayed Combustion, and it should be bound to the grenade with an object which, when removed, ends the spell and makes the grenade active. The object could be something simple, like, say… a Pin. And it could be built into the grenade at the time of manufacture…

JimmyPlenty 12-30-2019 05:06 PM

Re: What does "when worn" mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FireHorse (Post 2302399)
The text for Darkness says:

"Extinguishes all artificial lights (including Light spells) within its range."
and
"Torches, lights, etc., come back to life when the spell ends."

"Extinguish" and "come back to life" both seem to imply that it is indeed suppressing fire (not ending it, but temporarily suspending it), rather than merely preventing the transmission of light. The phrasing does invite that argument.

However, since the spell is named "Darkness", one might also argue (and I certainly would, if I were the GM having this argument with a player) that the clear intention of the spell was to target light, not combustion — and that this is just another example of unclear text that needs to be rewritten and clarified in future editions.

On the side, though… infrared light is still "light", and should be affected by Darkness (as long as it's artificial infrared light). And I would define "light" as "any part of the EM spectrum that is perceived by a lifeform through organs that a reasonable person would call Eyes" — which includes UV light, for everybody who can see that, too.

Correction: artificial UV light.

How about this rebuttal for infravision...

Since magic is psychic in nature on Cidri, it could well be that it has nothing to do with actual vision (regular, infrared, or otherwise), but just that the mind cannot see it. That evades all the science of the spell.

FireHorse 12-30-2019 05:20 PM

Re: What does "when worn" mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyPlenty (Post 2302426)
…it could well be that it has nothing to do with actual vision (regular, infrared, or otherwise), but just that the mind cannot see it. …

That works for me, because it has the same end result — either way, the essence of it is that the light can't be seen.

The pseudo-scientific "prevents the artificial generation of light within the AOE" sort of explanation is simpler though, because your alternative — "prevents the visual processing of artificial light from within the AOE by all observers, no matter the range" — implies a vastly larger actual AOE.

Shostak 12-30-2019 06:21 PM

Re: What does "when worn" mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FireHorse (Post 2302399)
The text for Darkness says:

"Extinguishes all artificial lights (including Light spells) within its range."
and
"Torches, lights, etc., come back to life when the spell ends."

Note that while it specifically mentions the Light spell, it does not mention the Fire spell. Go with the literal meaning: extinguish light not flame.

Quote:

However, since the spell is named "Darkness", one might also argue (and I certainly would, if I were the GM having this argument with a player) that the clear intention of the spell was to target light, not combustion — and that this is just another example of unclear text that needs to be rewritten and clarified in future editions.
Exactly. This eliminates the extra effect of suppressing fire.

KevinJ 01-28-2020 12:26 PM

Re: What does "when worn" mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FireHorse (Post 2302419)
I think that spell should be called Delayed Combustion, and it should be bound to the grenade with an object which, when removed, ends the spell and makes the grenade active. The object could be something simple, like, say… a Pin. And it could be built into the grenade at the time of manufacture…

You could apply a Delayed Combustion spell to any flammable item to make self destructing object. Burn after reading...

Also, a fire (normal or magical) would still do damage in darkness, even if you can't see it. And just because you can't see it doesn't mean that fireball isn't going to hurt.


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