2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

If A is two hexes away from B (and nobody else is present), then A is disengaged, yes? Suppose A wants to jab B with a spear. Which one of the "Options for Disengaged Figures" is that?

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

ITL 102: "(b) CHARGE ATTACK. Move up to half its MA and attack with any weapon except a missile weapon, or HTH."

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

Charge and attack or just about any action except Defend and Dodge. Then you move zero hexes.

Then, depending on how others moved, when it is your turn to act again, you decide what action you will actually take. So then it will be a jab attack, or if the other guy closed in on you, it will be an attack with a charge bonus or if they move away, you can throw your spear instead or maybe dodge.

In reality, this is what happens in a turn.

- Initiative roll.
- During move you decide if you want to move and how much. The more you move the less options you will have later.

Dodge and Defend can break DX order. If you use the optional rule of delayed action, that can also break order. It is adjusted DX (without ranged mods) that counts, which is a pain. The easiest way is to go by adjDX after armor, shield and damage penalties (those modifiers that are constant no matter what action you will chose).

- In DX order, you exceute one action that is allowed, usually limited by how far you moved. You do the action, then the next guy.

The current presentation of available actions is very confusing and a little incomplete and to be fair redundant.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

This is one of several cases where the list of options is not really engineered to cover the intent of other parts of the rules (another is the much-discussed Defend action). I would say that it is better to adopt the intuitively clear solution (the jab is just an Attack) rather than try to shoe horn it into something else.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

But… a Charge Attack involves a Charge (hence the name), and you end up adjacent to the target, right? This is not the case with a jab.

Plus, ITL 112 says a jab is a regular attack, and even specifies that a 2-hex jab cannot be combined with a charge (so no bonus damage).

I suppose that's overly literal nitpicking, but it seems like there should have been another letter in the list of Options, specifically for Jab Attack.

YES. It is very confusing, and poorly organized. That list of Options could be presented in a much better way.

In fact, that's exactly why I asked. I'm creating my own custom player aid, because that ugly (disorganized, incomplete, and occasionally redundant) text list is not friendly, inviting, or even especially helpful to new players.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

You can make a charge attack with a thrown weapon, such as a spear thrower. You don't need to be next to anybody for that.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

There is a difference between a charge attack with a pole arm or against it. One requires 3 hex straight movement, the other that the enemy start disengaged and end up engaged with you (even after you stand still and turn). This is just a qualifyer for first strike, +2 DX and pole arm extra damage. The "Charge" and attack option has nothing to do with that, since it applies to all weapons. It could just as easily have been called "move and attack" or "possibly move and attack".

There are basically only four different kinds of moves.
- Full move, nothing else can be done.
- Half move, everything but missile attacks, spellcasting can be done.
- 1 step move, which allows missile and spell attacks. And can be done when
engaged if you keep being engaged by all oponents.
- Stand up, you can't do anything else. (OR crawl 2 hexes)

No matter the move you get to rotate for free.

After your move, you can choose your action freely, limited by the move you actually did. IF you stood still or only moved 1 step you can do anything. If you moved more than half move, you pretty much do nothing. Easy. New players don't need to know much more than that.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

^ YES


^ YES


YES.
Except you left one out: there is also an option for figures that moved TWO hexes or less, to sling ready weapons and ready other weapons.


A "charge attack" is moving from non-adjacent to adjacent, as defined in the pole weapon rules, and qualifies pole weapons to the +1 die damage defensive attacks.

"Charge Attack" is the confusing name of option (b), which is a hold-over from original Melee, before there were jabs or other distinctions about it. As mentioned by others above, option (b) would be more accurately named "attack with zero up to 1/2 MA movement", to avoid confusion with the above concept (which DOES confuse some people - there are pages and pages of discussion about it).


Sure, so call it Jab Attack, available to figures moving 0 to 1/2 their MA (regardless of their engagement status), can be defended against even by unengaged figures.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

Yes, it could have been. And it would have been better to avoid inviting confusion.

Ayup. One wonders why the Rules As Written are not presented so simply.

But not the 2-hex Jab, right?

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

Why shouldn't a Cavalry Lance impact at two hexes in front of the horse's head? Given P as the pony's head on the diagram on page ITL 132, shouldn't the lance only be able to hit hexes X, Y and Z?

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

I think this ought to depend on exactly how you're defining the word "lance". I've seen some things called lances that aren't much more than longish spears, but I've seen other lances that are just as long as pikes.

For a really long lance (and using the same illustration you referenced), I'd say you can hit everything except Y and Z.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

Right, 2-hex jabs have nothing to do with charge attacks, unless by "charge attack" someone is talking about the name for option (b), which does allow 2-hex jabs.


Because a cavalry lance in TFT is taken to be shorter than a pike, and equivalent in effective length to a normal polearm, and so the RAW is they're equivalent and you need to use adjDX to determine if it goes before a normal polearm or not.

However one might prefer to do some research and/or develop other house rules. GURPS actually takes the length of each lance into account - you can buy a longer lance though it's harder to hit with.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

A four and a half yard long lance (as given on ITL 109) is going to be held with the butt end no further back than the rear end of the horse. So will impact at least five and a half feet in front of the head of the horse. Anybody in the hex directly in front of the horse is already past the head of the lance.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

LOL, no matter how many times I look at these rules I always find something strange and new. I can't remember we have ever run it like that. We always just used to do a half move and Ready a Weapon. Cool.

On second thought, I don't really like the rule though. Why should I only be able to move 2 hexes, why not a half move or a 1 step? Why 2?!? Not exactly logical. We don't have an MA payment system for actions. So no matter my MA, I can still only move 2 and only for this particular action. I always assumed that the crawl 2 hexes were for the purpose of getting away from someone's engagement zone if you started your movement underfoot. But I see no special reason for the Ready a Weapon 2 hex move limit.

Good catch Skarg!

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

Gargoyle flying along at MA 16 makes 16 attempts to pick up a weapon, one per hex in each of 16 hexes by ITL 104. Given DX 11 he'll grab an average of 10 weapons. Assuming these are Halberds the ST 13 gargoyle then falls out of the air, right?

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

That is a great reality point and I agree does deserve a good house rule that would be consistent with the described length of the weapon.


My guess is that it was Steve's feeling that it felt right to him that someone slinging and readying weapons could move faster than 1 hex, but would be slower than people doing the things that allow 1/2 MA. That seems to make intuitive sense to me for a generic rule that could include someone putting away one or even two weapons and drawing one or two weapons in one turn - I think they'd be slower than people moving into combat with ready weapons. If only one weapon were being drawn from a convenient place, though, maybe half-MA would feel more appropriate.


This seems to me utterly off topic in this thread, and also wrong.

I don't think fliers would be wise to try to pick up things from the ground while flying.

Seems like an invitation to the GM to ask for a 3- or 4-die DX roll or crash into the dirt.

Gargoyles can't even make one punch attack while flying without it being at DX -4, so if picking up something while flying by were even allowed, I'd think it'd be at DX -4 at best.

The rule also talks about the attempt being "on the run" and "while running", not while flying.

The rule also mentions "a" weapon, not a weapon for every hex of movement. I think this is a one-item-per-turn (if you make your DX roll) option.

There's also a limit on the number of weapons that can be held at once. Even if the GM did allow picking up items while flying over them, and even if you had a dragon with enough ST to hold an octopus is each of it's four claws, I'd expect them to only be able to hold at most 12 one-handed weapons.

And, not on-topic in a thread about 2-hex jabs.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

Indeed Nils, I thought so too.

Hence my attempt to re-do the options table you may find useful here:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...27#post2284227

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

Speaking of 2-hex Jabs, I disagree with ITL regarding Tridents. 1½ yards…? While I have seen some short Tridents, I've never seen one that short — and most are about the same height as the owner, or even taller.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

As has already been pointed out: it's option (b). I don't see where any confusion arises.

"Move up to half MA and attack with any weapon except a missile weapon."

So you move up to half your MA and jab with your pole weapon. The specifics are in Melee page 13 which points out that a jab is a normal attack and cannot do double damage for a charge attack even if it has met the other conditions.

There's nothing here comparable to the problems with the Defend or Dodge options.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

Yes, that's what the List of Options says on ITL 102, and Option B is named "Charge Attack".

But then in the section on Pole Arms on ITL 111, it says: "A charge attack is defined as an attack in which the attacker moves from a non-adjacent hex to a hex adjacent to his target."

Well you can't 2-hex Jab somebody who's adjacent to you, so apparently you can't combine a Charge Attack with a 2-hex Jab. Ergo, confusion.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

I think it's simply that option (b) is titled "Charge Attack" Which is misleading; it's simply any attack in which you move up to half your MA and perform a permitted attack. This may be a "charge attack" or a normal attack, or a jab, or a thrown weapon - it doesn't have to be a "Charge Attack" as defined on p111.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

Yes, presumably that's the explanation. So it would have been helpful if they had named Option B something else, instead of using the term "Charge Attack" in two different (and potentially contradictory) ways.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

Yes that's true. The title is just a shorthand and not the detail but it would have been better to call it something like "Move and Attack" or something else to avoid potential confusion.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

"Move and Attack" would indeed be better, with a note that IF the move brings you adjacent to the target, you may qualify for a Charge Attack (and "see 'Charge Attacks', pg. whatever").

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

That was helpful, thanks for posting the link. I never got the old Advanced Melee, so now I am curious to see it. Grouping the options according to movement intrigues me, and may have given me a Brilliant Idea™.

I'm aiming for something even simpler though, and more visual (less text). Something that could fit on a card maybe, or no bigger than half a sheet of paper.

Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?
 

Split the table like this:

If at the start of a figure's movement it is already engaged then it may stand still (reserving a change facing), or change facing, or shift and change facing. If it doesn't start engaged it may move up to its full MA until it becomes engaged. While moving a figure may perform certain actions during movement such as jumping, picking up or changing weapons, or attempting to enter another figure's hex.

(a) When the figure's turn to act comes if it expended more than half its MA in movement or other actions then it does nothing.

Otherwise it may choose from the following options:

(b) Attack with any thrown or wielded weapon.

(c) Dodge and defend.

(d) Drop to a prone or knelling position

If a figure expended only zero or one points of MA then it may choose from the above or the additional options:

(f) Missile Weapon attack. If now engaged drop the missile weapon in your hex after making the attack.

(g) Stand up

(h) Attempt to cast a spell

(i) Attempt to disbelieve one figure

(m) CHANGE WEAPONS: If the figure didn't fumble a quick pick up during movement it may now take its action to pick up or draw and ready a new weapon. If it is engaged it can't ready a missile weapon and must drop instead of reshelving the item held in that hand.

(n) DISENGAGE

If a figure is in HTH when it's turn to act comes it may choose from the following options:

(t) HTH ATTACK

(u) ATTEMPT TO DRAW DAGGER.

(v) ATTEMPT TO DISENGAGE from HTH.

(w) Concentrate and attempt to cast a spell on or disbelieve a figure in your hex.