[Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

According to rules, layering armour over Padded Cloth (DR 1*) would give -1 to DX. However, the combination of metallic armour over thick padding (not so thick to work properly as standalone armour, but in any case thicker of the DR 0* padding which is included in armour stats) was so common in certain periods and regions (ex. XIII to XVI century Europe) that makes me think that the -1 DX penalty for layering armour seems to be excessive. Wearing mail armour over padded cloth isn't the same that wearing mail armour under a heavy gambeson (DR 3) or under a coat of plates. In the first case, the total weight is inferior, the distribution of weight is better and movement are less likely to be significantly hampered.

So I propose that:

1) Wearing a layer of flexible armour over a single layer of Padded Cloth shouldn't give any DX penalty. Wearing any kind of armour over a single layer of Padded Cloth which is Expertly Tailored or Masterfully Tailored shouldn't give any DX penalty. Expertly Tailored Padded Cloth and Masterfully Tailored Padded Cloth would count as Arming Doublet for the purpuose of calculating the -1 DX and -1 DR penalty for wearing a Plate armour suit without a proper underpadding.

Or, alternatively:

2) Wearing a layer of any kind of armour that isn't of Cheap Quality over a single layer of Padded Cloth shouldn't give any DX penalty. Expertly Tailored Padded Cloth and Masterfully Tailored Padded Cloth would count as Arming Doublet for the purpuose of calculating the -1 DX and -1 DR penalty for wearing a Plate armour suit without a proper underpadding.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Layering penalty is often about game balance rather than realism (donning a clamshell over reflex bodysuit causes DX penalty), so if those rules doesn't disrupt the balance of your games, then go ahead.
Regarding official stance, Dungeon Fantasy Knights has a power-up that allows them to wear armor up to DR2 without causing DX penalty.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

In general the layered armor penalty is for two armor layers both designed to work independently as armor, not for two armor layers that are designed to work together -- it's just that two armor layers that are designed to work together tends to be statted up as a single suit of armor with multiple components, not as two suits of armor.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Outer armor can probably be tailored to assume an inner layer of a given thickness (this is basically the same as armor tailored for a larger individual), and wearing this without the expected inner layer would result in a DX penalty, while wearing it with would mean no penalty. There’s a limit to how thick armor can be before it physically gets in the way of movements, however - I generally assume up to 0.2” for rigid and up to 0.5” for flexible is ok (for hybrid cases, no more than 0.2” for the rigid layer and no more than 0.5” overall). Some areas (Chest, Skull) can be thicker, some areas (joints, mostly) must be thinner, of course, but that level of detail isn’t strictly necessary. That’s for a human with an average build; larger characters can wear thicker armor, smaller characters must wear thinner armor.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Arming doublets, purpoints, and aketons were no thicker or heavier than regular clothing. They were designed to stop chafing and improve the fit of the armour, not to provide extra protection. Low-Tech armour stats assume that normal clothing underneath has been replaced with an appropriate arming garment, or that the armour has its own integrated padded liner (which was a lot more common than many assume).

Any armour worn over what Low-Tech defines as "Padded Cloth" definitely requires a DX penalty.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Usually yes, this is the case, but is possible to use Padded Cloth alone and in combination with something heavier, because it's at the same time a form of padding and a form of armour. GURPS rules penalise the conjuct use of proper armour with DR 1+ padding.

Padded Cloth is flexible and is 0.25" thick. That's why I think that the DX penalty is excessive, if the armour "layered" with Padded Cloth isn't of Cheap Quality. So I'm for decreasing the penalty from a milder form (ex. -1 only to some DX-based skills, like Fast-Draw) to no penalties at all.

I don't agree with you, Dan, at least not in game terms. Of course the point of the discussion is to take something that is real and "translate" it in GURPS stats. We can translate most historical pourpoints as being DR 0, but not the thickest of them (DR 1* to DR 2*) that were still used with some other form of armour.

GURPS DR 1* "Padded Cloth" is described as being only 1/4" (ca 0,625 cm) thick, so can be translated in something that could be 6-8 layers thick. Which was rarely worn by itself, but it can provides some protection against punches, batons, sword cuts and knife stabs, while the normal underpadding (DR 0) when alone has no protective value at all, at least in GURPS terms. So we are talking about a thick vest or a thicker-than-usual form of padding, depending on cases.

Textile standalone armour would be anything from Light Layered Cloth (DR 2*) to Proofed Paper (DR 6). The combination of a thicker-than-usual padded garment worn with mail and/or lamellar or plate armour translated in GURPS game dynamics is present in your own work, Dan: Qin Cavalry Loadout, Byzantine Skoutatos Loadout, Third Crusade European Loadout, Mamluk Heavy Cavalry Loadout and Northern Mughal Cavalry Loadout, all of them wear metallic armour over GURPS Padded Cloth.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

If it's 1/4" thick, it's very tightly stitched together, as by weight it's something like 130 ounces per square yard.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

I think the issue is your use of the term "Padded Cloth", which has a very specific definition in Low-Tech. The Padded Cloth armour in Low-Tech, is 1/4" thick AFTER it has been compressed with quilting. It is considerably thicker than that beforehand. This armour provides a general DR 1 vs all attacks and is too bulky to be worn under armour without application of a DX penalty. There were a lot of reasons that came up during writing and playtesting for it to be such.

The text is a little confusing because there were legacy issues with earlier issues of GURPS but the Padded Cloth armour in Low-Tech was not intended to represent aketons and other forms of arming garments that were historically worn under armour. The Loadouts book treated arming garments the same as Light Leather or Winter Clothing, which gave DR 1 vs. cutting attacks only. They won't suffer a DX penalty if specifically tailored to be worn under armour.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

If nothing else if it's been significantly compressed down to 1/4" by lots of stitching, it's likely fairly rigid*

That rigidity will be an issue for layering



I think the reality is there were instances of layered armour and people taking in GURPS terms -1DX pens

(Dan Howard's Loadouts shows several examples of this)




I might be tempted to make some very specific exceptions for some combinations or armour and good tailoring

Don't forget that we're functionally talking about a -1 to relevant skill's, so you can overcome this issue by getting +1 more in the relevant skills.

If someone really wanted to have some kind of +1 to skill that only counts for negating that armour layer penalty for a specific armour set I might call that a 50%* limitation / reduction in skill cost. And a not too unrealistic way to model experienced armour wearing fighters working out how to compensate for the issues of layered armour.


Yeah OK this gets pretty damn close to a "wearing armour skill", familiarity bonus or perk, but ehh I'm OK with that


Another way to go would be to allow a +1 armour bond bonus that offsets layering penalty for individual armour sets, Same kind of justification and the individual user having just got so comfortable with the their specific armour beyond even the initial tailoring and familiarisation process. (I'd have familiarity rules for armours as well as poor tailoring issues).





*in terms of worn material even if not in terms of meeting the threshold of flexible or not in GURPS terms.


**make it -75% and it's a perk

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Maybe the Expertly Tailored version or the Masterfully Tailored version of the Padded Cloth could qualify themselves for erasing completely the DX penalty, because they're specifically made to fit at the best the wearer, so they can act as "Winter Clothing" or "Light Leather" specifically tailored to be worn under armour. I'm still inclined to not give penalties for the combination of flexible mail armour (Light, Fine or Heavy Mail) over Padded Cloth, though maintaining the penalty for the combination of mail and DR 2* Light Layered Cloth. It depends also from which area of the body is covered. For example, donning a sleeveless Light Layered Cloth aketon over a sleeved Padded Cloth jacket is different to don a sleeved Light Layered Cloth gambeson over another sleeved Padded Cloth jacket. In the second case, arm movements are likely to be hampered enough to justify the -1 DX penalty.

Anyway, "Padded Cloth" used as standalone armour still remains a poor choice. DR 1 armour, alone, sounds more like a thing to protect the wearer from bad weather and work hazards than a useful protection in a Low-Tech battlefield, and I don't think that it was something that was worn purposely as "armour", at least not in the majority of cases. Though, the armour is still considered "flexible" (DR 1*), so is thick but not semi-rigid (like Light Scale) or rigid. There is also a lighter version of the Padded Cloth that still gives DR 1* against all attacks: the Heavy Coat, which covers torso, arms, thighs and knees (200%) and weights 10 lbs. - so, a sleeveless short version that covers only the torso (100%) should weight only 5 lbs. against 6 lbs. of Padded Cloth. It costs only two times the Padded Cloth at parity of body coverage and gives +4 to Holdout to conceal other forms of armour beneath it, so... what's the point of using Padded Cloth at all?

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Yes, what GURPS calls Padded Cloth is an in-between proper armour and regular clothing, but in games you have to fit things into a limited number of steps, and sometimes you round up one kind of penalty to make up for another which the game does not represent.

Here are the weights of some historical quilted clothing which was worn under armour, most would cover the Torso and Arms in GURPS and are lighter than Padded Cloth in GURPS.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Yep. It is just regular clothing that is tailored a little differently. Modern re-enactors wear way too much padding under their armour.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

That's at least partially for insurance purposes, I think... as well as being mostly nerds from a pretty non-violent culture, as these things go.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

It's probably mostly because reenactment is either simple costuming or a (generally fairly casual) sport, and those just don't have the same safety priorities as actual combat.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

The heavier garments that are quoted in the article weight as much as GURPS Padded Cloth. However, it's not clear if they were worn with other armour. They're still way lighter than a gambeson.

"There were certainly some very heavy garments stuffed with cotton. Documents from Venice from the end of the 13th century say that infantry should wear overgarments stuffed with 8 libbre (probably the libbra grossa of 477 g) of cotton and bearing the sign of St. Mark (Cessi, Deliberazioni del Maggior Consiglio di Venezia, III, p. 17, 406)."

Being an intermediate thing between padding and proper armour, IMO such garments should be considered more "padding" than "armour" and thus give no DX penalty for a single layer, at least if worn with mail and/or if properly tailored to be worn with armour.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Overgarments are not undergarments. Garments designed to be worn under armour were no thicker or heavier than regular clothing.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Exactly. The sopbrosberga and soprensegna in documents from duocento Italy and the red brocade Charles VI garment would probably count as Light Layered Cloth in GURPS, with their weight rounded up because they have to have an even DR 2 and because players don't carry all the weight they want their characters to carry, its fair for things to be slightly heavier than average. They would be in addition to the weight of clothing and of iron/hardened leather/bronze armour, all of which are worn underneath these overgarments.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Is there maybe some way to link a scaling DX penalty to the relative weights of armors so that layering heavy armors is more penalizing than layering light ones?

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Weight isn't the issue, bulk is. Mail is far easier to wear under armour than a winter jacket.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

The other issue with layering armor is that realistically (though this is not represented in GURPS and varies by armor type) a single double-weight armor layer is likely to have superior protective value to two layers of single-weight armor, so you really only layer armor if there's an interaction between the layers that increases performance (in which case you are likely to never use at least one of layers solo -- for example, vest inserts) or there's a technical issue that forces you to (flexible armor to fill gaps between plates), and both cases are really better represented as a single suit of armor with multiple elements, not layered armor.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

If you use the design rules in Pyramid rules they will give you a "thickness" when you create armour. You could link some kind sliding scale DX penalty to that.

I.e. so a layer of padded cloth that was DR2 would be rather a lot thicker than a layer of DR3 mail.

Granularity will be a question though, -1DX per layer is already the finest grain the system can do.

There's also the question that some other physical aspects might apply, rigidity for instance even if it's not enough to qualify at non-flexible in the system. It is almost impossible to make cloth or leather armour not become more and more rigid as thickness increases. Another great thing about mail* is that in terms of increasing equivalent DR it maintains it's flexibility for far longer than padded or leather.

So with that in mind it maybe worth applying a different sliding scale for different armours. But as I say due to the granularity issue this kind of distinction might just be below the ability of the system to discern unless you have whopping great penalties at the upper end of the range to fit smaller ones under.



*what I might do is allow mail below a certain thickness benefit from more relaxed layering rules. Say (for example) if it's fine or light you can cover the torso and the upper thighs for no layering penalty, but any more location coverage than that and you get the usual -1DX pen.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Yep, and it raises the question what's a layer and what's an integral part of a greater whole. Especially if you take time and resources to specifically tailor separate "layers" to work together, even if it's just at the design phase.

I think this line blurs more and more as you go up in TL levels as new materials become available!

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Certainly as well if it's a mail hauberk under a breastplate. There is barely any interaction at the layers to worry about.


My question was always... what if it's flexible over rigid? I usually see this as hauberk over upper arm guard, thigh plates, etc. So far I've just ignored it, as I know well made guards won't catch... but...

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

The Pyramid armor design articles treat any flexible material as rigid (for purposes other than setting MaxDR, which I don’t think is actually formally linked to thickness - my suggested 0.2” for rigid and 0.5” for flexible is more a trend than a hard rule) if it’s 0.25” or thicker. The material doesn’t suddenly become rigid, but the effects of flexible - increased blunt trauma, 100% coverage with no armor chinks/gaps - no longer apply (it’s thick enough to readily absorb blunt trauma, but too thick for joints and the like so it needs to be designed more like armor plates than clothing).

For going beyond maximum thickness, I think once something is thick enough to interfere with movement it’s going to become rather restrictive rather quickly. -1 DX per +10% thickness should work (double thickness is “impossible” to function, at -10); I’d even be tempted to make it -1 DX per +5% (1.5x thickness - roughly maximum thickness for a creature 1 SM larger than the wearer - is at the “impossible” -10 level). If multilayered, this assumes the armor was designed to be worn together; if not, the layering penalty would also be in play.

For flexible-over-rigid, I think I’ve read this typically cuts the protective ability of the flexible armor in half, so 50% DR may be appropriate. Of course, that’s flexible armor on, say, a tree stump, rather than other a layer of plate with a squishy person underneath, so this may overstate the effect - perhaps 80% DR would be more appropriate (or just ignore the effect and use full DR). I suspect in cases where flexible armor was worn over rigid for a functional reason (rather than for aesthetics), it was largely to capture projectiles and their fragments so they don’t end up striking the wearer or one of his allies in an unarmored location after glancing/splintering off the armor. See the video from this thread, wherein roughly period arrows were shot from a period bow at period breastplate (roughly because the arrows required some educated guessing, the bow is based on specimens from roughly 100 years after Agincourt, and the breastplate was based more on a German design than a French one).

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

I'm looking into some history, but am still quite the novice idiot. So everyone correct me when, not if, I'm wrong.
But it seems like as plate started to get more prevalent, people began to add it piecemeal over suits of mail around the 1300s. But by the 1400s, they quickly began to just stop wearing the mail underneath except for the gaps.
It seems like that would make most sense if they realized that it was more weight/protection efficient to only wear one layer of armor.
Is this a valid assessment?

(I know that over time, plate became less expensive than mail, but that happens a bit later than when much of this cross over seemed to have occurred.)

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

The Charles VI garment is closer to Padded Cloth because it's 10 to 12 lbs. and it covers torso and arms (150% of torso armour in GURPS terms). GURPS Padded Cloth that cover both the torso and the arms would be 9 lbs. while GURPS Light Layered Leather would be 18 lbs.

Armour assimilable to GURPS Padded Cloth worn under mail would be the thicker aketons worn by European knights from mid XII to early XV century, as well the Eastern Roman kabadion. Armour assimilable to GURPS Padded Cloth worn between an inner layer of mail and rigid metallic armour (lamellar, plate) would be the Middle Eastern qarqal and some of the heavier pourpoints like this:
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/a8/b7/6d/a...c6f95ee6af.jpg

If the DX penalty is for Winter Clothing/Light Leather/Heavy Coat/Padded Cloth which isn't made to be worn under other forms of armour, then it's fine. But in my campaigns I'd remove the penalty for Winter Clothing/Light Leather/Heavy Coat/Padded Cloth that is appositely designed to be worn under or over other forms of armour. Expert Tailoring (+5 CF, -15% weight, +1 Holdout) would qualify for these if worn as undergarments, as it represents an armour made with better materials (a bit less thick) and that fits better to the wearer. For overgarments, I'd apply a +1 CF to erase the layering penalty for one layer only, with no changes in weight or Holdout - maybe with -1 Holdout for being looser in order to hamper less the movements of the wearer. About mail armour and sleeveless flexible armour, I'd give no penalty for a single layer of armour worn with Winter Clothing/Light Leather/Heavy Coat/Padded Cloth, under or over.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

The thing is in terms of like for like protection (i.e DR in GURPS terms) plate is lighter and a lot of the time cheaper than mail, so in abstract if you can do plate, you do plate.

Mail had other advantages though, being flexible it's great at covering hard to armour locations. But again as plate developed Plate was also able to do this (not 100% as well which is why as you say you kept mail voiders etc).

Side note mail isn't great against maces etc, so that was another factor that favoured plate over mail. It also not great against bullets! (plate can be depending on what bullet and what thickness of plate)

On top of that plate also got generally speaking better in terms of protection for weight, as better steels and better processes become more available (or more able to be reliably made in greater amounts and thus more available/affordable). This allows better plate to be made that offered better protection without proportionally increasing the weight as a much.


Not all of these are absolutes, some early plate was very good, some later plate was less good, some mail types can get pretty rigid, some very expensive plate armours made by the best craftsmen had plate voiders, not all types of armour were available to all people all the time for specific reasons other than what's the most cost and weight deficient way to get DR etc, etc.


The head is a slight special case here due to the issues of vision, mobility and high value target.


Look at the various loadouts in Dan Howard's loadout books, the French Chevalier is wearing one of the heaviest sets with layers of plate and mail (and some quite impressive layered DR at points). The German Ritter a century later is wearing a set with way less mail, less layers and less weight but IIRC better plate coverage and pretty comparable protection. The Italian a hundred years after has a few extra developments over the Ritter in terms of head, throat & joint protection. Otherwise its pretty similar to the Ritter, apart from the fact that his suit is heavier because overall thickness has increased. But in terms of protection by weight the increase in protection outstrips the weight increase. It still lighter than the Chevalier's though!

The London Lobster (ECW) gets heavier but still lighter than the Chevalier, and has a DR12 proofed Breastplate!


But the point that's perhaps more relevant here for looking at armour effectiveness in GURPS is that historically once you have a suite of plate that has got around the coverage issue and is of reasonably good steel that gave you pretty damn good protection* against pretty much all hand held weapons until guns got better (and even then certain bits of plate got thicker to compete with guns for a while).
So they didn't need to layer because they didn't need the 2nd layer for coverage, and they didn't need to layer for the extra protection that layer would give.


But as we all know from umpteen threads on the subject, that effectiveness in terms of protection isn't always matched in the GURPS system. And while I'm not looking to reignite that debate, it is I think fair to say that because of that fact we often look at armour's performance in GURPS and things like layering with that in mind. And so the "Historical record" and the "GURPS record" at our tables, don't always exactly line up! But of course GURPS has a far wider remit than to only provide exact historical armour performance, and has to accommodate a much wider range of results within the same overall system so yeah we get overlap in those results**!



*generally speaking forcing people to go around it and more complete coverage makes that harder

**and example of this is 'Blade of the Iron Throne' (a system that largely came out of 'The Riddle of Steel'). This system is a kind of sword and sorcery game pretty much aimed at "realistic" one on one fights between largely human combatants (it can do more but IMO breaks when it tries). It basically says a lot of blade's can't cut through amour of a certain type. Now that doesn't those blades are of no possible use, but they have to either go around the armour of they functionally turn into sub optimal bludgeoning weapons. And well OK that blanket ruling works when your only talking about vaguely realistic humans hitting other vaguely realistic humans in armour. But GURPS doesn't have that luxury, because while yeah OK It's extremely unlikely that a human can cut through a 2mm steel breastplate with a sword for any effect, what about a 12ft tall ST25 ogre with 8ft, 15lb sword he might be able to rather more easily

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

There is one other point about mail, beyond the ones Tomsdad pointed out, and that is weight distribution. For a chainmail hauberk or a byrnie, almost all of the weight is borne by the shoulders. For mail chausses (trousers), the weight would normally be at the waist but IIRC braces (suspenders) were used which transferred the weight to the shoulders. The weight of a mail coif would be borne by the crown of the head. There isn't much you can do about any of that, even with tailoring or layering, so that's another reason to jettison mail anywhere it isn't essential.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

I agree that plate could be more evenly distributed, but I've worn pretty heavy hauberks for a couple of days at a time in terms of feeling the weight it's not that bad*! FWIW my experience of the issues of weight and wearing armour is that it's not an issue that you feel all the time. Sometimes it's not a thing and sometimes it is. The best way I think I can describe this is that given practice you get used to doing stuff in armour, and that generally speaking it more heavily impedes your more extreme activities.

which isn't a very clear description. So maybe an example:

Jogging, I can (and have) jogged in armour of various types don't get me wrong I don't jog as well as when i'm not wearing armour but I can jog in it.

Sprinting though? No not anywhere as well.

One point for comfort though, leg armour? leg armour sucks! Again don't get me wrong there's a range in how much different leg armours can suck, but in general it sucks more than other bits**! (NB I have less experience of leg armour than other armour so maybe I'm missing something or just haven't got as acclimatised to it)

Enclosed helmets and padding, are of course uncomfortable, disorienting and hot. Getting the backwash of your hot exhaled air while trying to watch that chap's sword isn't fun!


*you really notice it when you take it off you get all "floaty light"

**IIRC Loadouts makes this point?

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Flexible over rigid is generally not there for purposes that translate as DR -- the way flexible armor stops attacks is dependent on it flexing, so if it's unable to do so, it's significantly less effective. The main purposes are holding the plate in place, concealment, and catching fragments or deflection.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Which pyramid? Sounds great. Granularity-wise we could track decimals for how armor would add up, though they for the most part won't matter, you'll just never tie your skill, only roll above it or below it on whole-number dice.

I just figured if you treated blunt trauma that gets through as crushing damage to the next layer of armor. So if you had a 25 DR cape above a 5 DR shirt hit for 25 crushing, 5 BT-as-crushing hits the shirt, and then 1 BT-as-crushing gets through the shirt to hit the person?

Of course that would make wearing a 5 DR shirt underneath a 25 DR cape superior to wearing a 50 DR cape, so that seems like a problem.

Another rule to keep in mind which I remember seeing somewhere in Low-Tech is only Rigid armor has Chinks and that Flexible armor doesn't have Chinks, so would that mean as leather moves from flexible to rigid it gains chinks? Seems strange.

Plus aren't there also different rules for whether (when using the optional rules for armor taking damage) armor counts as Homogenous or Unliving depending on whether it's Flexible or Rigid? I can try to find the page numbers later tonight.

However diminished, it feels like it ought to do something though... as little as leather "skintight" overtop plate might protect against something like a knife slash, the knife still has to slice through the leather before it can begin to scratch up the metal.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

To my knowledge, there are three - Low Tech Armor Design (TL 0-4), Cutting Edge Armor Design (TL 5-9 IIRC, with emphasis on TL 8 and 9), and Ultra Tech Armor Design (TL 9-12). I know the first is in Low Tech II, and the second I think in The Cutting Edge. The last I believe is in one of the Tech and Toys, but can’t recall which one (IV maybe?).

BT is injury, not damage, so the character is looking at 5 HP lost.

Armor thick enough to lose GURPS Flexible needs to be designed more like plate - one designed like a leather bodysuit would leave the wearer unable to move.

As I mentioned upthread, half DR may be appropriate.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

I've worn mail over cladding. It's significantly harder to maneuver in than mail over a Tshirt or over my corduroy arming tunic. Granted neither the mail or cladding were fitted to me with any great skill. So I'm keen on the idea that Custom fitted armor can negate some of the layer penalty.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

It does something, just little enough that the reason it's there is probably not directly to increase the resistance of the armor.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

The problem goes away if you wear the padding over the top like they did at the time. Nothing you wear under mail, should be any thicker than a light sweater. Re-enactors wear way too much padding under their mail.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

All the garments you are thinking of were worn over the top of armor, not underneath.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Most leg armour was meant to be worn by cavalry, not infantry. Leg armour is the first thing that gets discarded whenever a soldier has to march for any length of time.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

I'm not athletic at all. But I have easily carried 40+ lbs 8 miles on walks. Being in a cheap-ish backpack, the weight was entirely on my shoulders. All I suffered were some red marks.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

When using the damage-to-armor rules, it has HP too, so if you look at it like "the shirt is wearing the cape" ?

The weird thing about "injury, not damage" is when we look at stuff like Vulnerability (B161) is it "applies a special wounding multiplier to damage that penetrates your DR"

So if you had a x4 wounding multiplier from Crushing Damage, injury sustained from Blunt Force Trauma wouldn't be increased at all... which seems strange, they seem like very similar ideas.

Funny enough, this would also mean you'd take more damage from cutting weapons that only slightly penetrate DR (converted to crushing) than those which extremely (x2) penetrated it (keeps as cutting)

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Treat armor as immune to blunt trauma - note armor doesn’t get damaged unless you deal damage equal to or exceeding its HP.

BT is weird - note it also doesn’t care if what’s behind DR is a solid rib cage or squishy brain, it’s the same Injury either way. Incidentally, you can “reverse” that Vulnerability oddity if you take IT:DR for Crushing, getting more bang for your buck when wearing armor (as this effectively gives you a degree of IT:DR for Cutting at no additional charge).

A rework of BT would be nice, making it into crushing damage, but the above are the rules as they currently stand.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Yep, and while I knew that in theory before I'd worn any, practical experience certainly backed it up :-0!


EDIT: this raises a possible wider system point. Does GURPS make legs too easy to hit? a -2 to hit to bypass armour in most instances seem a pretty good deal! Especially as while you won't quickly kill your opponent crippling a leg is pretty much fight ending injury unless you really have to make sure they're dead right then and there.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Armour design LT 3/52 (as per Varyon), there are HT and UT articles in the same format in later pyramids



Sorry I was thinking more about the sliding scale of layer induced DX pens!

I wouldn't covert damage into blunt trauma between layers, as you say you get weird results in the system. The system tends to total up DR and apply damage to it.
this does lead to some oddities though when you get DRs that react to different damage types in different ways as well as if you use edge protection!

However in this case it's kind of irrelevant because unless magic is involved a 25DR cape wouldn't be a cape as we know it! It would be some kind of open rigid cylinder of several inches thick material and I dread to think what it would weigh ;-)!


Yep that's right and it makes sense. That flexibility means you can get a more complete coverage without joins and individual separate pieces, and the body can still move. Rigid armour makes that almost impossible. Some areas need to flex to allow movement and at some point rigid pieces have to join and meet when fitted around the body.

But there are tricks, better tailoring reduced chinks & gaps, sliding rivets to allowed for plates to gain some flexibility (both in LT), some pieces were design to block attacks to those areas Bresurges, extensions to the Polyens

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Targeting locomotion is arguably too useful in GURPS - I have a similar problem in that when Winged Flight is involved, it’s really hard to justify attacking anything other than the wings (which are unarmored, only at -2, and sufficient injury to cripple is basically a guaranteed victory as your target plummets to the earth). A solution I had there (haven’t really tested it) was that, if the target fails their normal defense, give them a “free” unarmed Parry or Dodge, representing the fact that body part is in fairly constant motion. This required the target use a Retreat either for this defense (in which case they benefit from the Retreat bonus) or a previous one (no bonus, but the second defense is available). Adapting this to the legs can work. Failing that, well, shin guards (front only, defends knee and lower leg for 3/6 protection) aren’t too terribly onerous and we’re fairly common IIRC, and make the “ignore DR and hit the leg” penalty be -4 instead of -2.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

It may be that a normal retreat is just a pretty realistic response to an attack to the legs (you are moving you legs out the way afterall)!

I think retreats are IRL very common



True enough, and at the other end of the leg partial armour often had some kind of coverage for the upper thigh!

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Around 30% of all the injuries on the Wisby skeletons were to the tibia. Skull injuries made up another 30%.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Cheers, but other than telling us that 30% of the people killed at Wisby had suffered lower leg wounds I'm not sure what that tells us about how easy it is to hit the leg in terms of GURPS -2 to hit location penalty?

If nothing else if the lower legs were unarmoured and other location were armoured than I'd expect to see those locations dis-proportionally represented in terms for wounds on dead people as opposed to hits on armoured locations.

Plus of course people left dead on the field is a sub category of wounded, and not injuries on the dead were inflicted in open combat

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

My experience is that the legs are not especially hard to hit, but unless your opponent is really sticking his front leg out, you need more reach to hit them, so in a cascading wait situation (which is actually very very common) you lose out timing-wise to someone with an equal length weapon.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

It seems that when you're getting that detailed, it becomes a literal matter of inches. For that, arm length seems just as important assuming equal length weapons. That's really getting fiddly.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

What examples of such heavy quilted garments worn under iron armour do you have? I linked you a page describing arming doublets/pourpoints/aketons worn under iron armour, they are about as heavy as a modern giacca/blazer with a complete canvas lining. If you go by weight, none of them is heavy enough for GURPS Padded Cloth, if you go by thickness than the heaviest might be DR 1.

The anonymous Byzantine treatise on generalship does recommend a garment one finger thick under iron armour, but a sixteenth-century writer says that soldiers without other armour wear a garment three fingers thick to stop stone-tipped poisoned arrows. In GURPS I would probably call the first Padded Cloth and the second Medium or Heavy Layered Cloth.

Why do you think such a fifteenth-century jack would be GURPS Padded Cloth not Layered Cloth? Sources from fifteenth-century Europe describe jacks of from 10 to 30 layers of linen cloth, and we have some extant examples in Germany which are quite thick except where the breastplate will cover them.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

GURPS hit location penalties and random hit tables have to include both projectiles, thrusts with hand weapons, and swings with hand weapons. By definition, they can't cover all three accurately. Nor can they cover things like the ability to strike to the leg with a knife, a one-handed sword, and a quarterstaff (generally speaking, its easier and safer with the longer weapon).

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Also, I would call the Charles VI garment Layered Cloth because its heavier than ordinary 14th century clothing, and provides significantly more protection. Its one of the heaviest padded garments I know, but it has oil and rust stains from iron armour, its possible that soldiers without iron armour wore even heavier equipment. In the end, we have to balance different game stats, metagame considerations (ie. not defining an item which is 'just better' than the alternatives in game terms but 'about the same' in real life), consistency with existing rules (Dan had to work with stats from the Basic Set and the firearms experts' definition of DR 70 = 1" RHA) and simplicity.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Well, then, citing your own GURPS work:

"European Crusaders
As noted above, the arms and armor of European Crusaders were very similar to those of their Middle Eastern opponents. The hauberk was shortened to cover the torso only (haubergeon, or “little hauberk”). Under the haubergeon, a padded garment called an aketon covered the torso and arms. The legs and feet were protected by mail leggings (chaussons) and the hands were covered by mail mittens called mufflers that were often attached to the sleeves of the haubergeon.
On the head, a mail coife covered the shoulders and part of the upper chest. Over this was a flat-topped helmet (with face visor), a bascinet, and mail aventail."

From the table:

Common Name: Padded Shirt || Ethnic Name: Aketon || Location: torso, arms || DR 1*

Here, the aketon is considered Padded Cloth and is worn under the haubergeon, removing the need for a separate tunic. So this is an error?

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

I took fencing in college. I was not particularly good at it (*maybe* I had a point in it), but in epee, if your opponent stuck his front leg out and didn't keep it mobile, it was by no means hard to attack the thigh or the foot (attacking the lower leg is not easy, it tends to be at a very bad angle).

The general drawbacks are that the legs are more mobile than the body, and they just aren't as desirable a target (which GURPS models by giving a x1 wounding modifier for impaling attacks).

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

The point is that some padding that will be DR 1* in game was sometimes worn, especially if you consider the Charles garment as Light Layered Cloth with DR 2*. Both the kabadion and some aketons from mid XII century to early XIV century were thicker than ordinary clothing, enough to give DR 1* (even if they didn't reach the GURPS's "6 lbs. for 100% of torso armour"). Treating them as Padded Cloth (removing the need of separate Ordinary Clothing garments, and thus considering them as being 4.4 lbs. + 1.6 lbs. of Ordinary Clothing; or even better, as 3.5 lbs. + 1.6 lbs of Ordinary Clothing in case of Expert Tailoring) would be fine IMO, and this specific combination shouldn't give DX penalty (maybe adding +1 CF for being made and tailored to worn with other forms of armour for a better game balance). You could even consider them as full DR 1* only if they're worn with other armour, giving them -1 DR vs. impaling if they're worn as standalone armour (this interaction between garments is similarly represented in game with the combination of Plate Armour and the Arming Doublet).

At sight, it could be GURPS "Padded Cloth", GURPS "Light Layered Cloth" or a real-life in-between these two (something that maybe would give DR 1.5*, but we have to round up or down both DR and weight for game granularity). I'll treat it as "Padded Cloth" or, at maximum, as "Light Layered Cloth" for torso and shoulders and "Padded Cloth" for the rest of the sleeves. Anyway, is clearly something heavier than regular clothing but lighter than a proper jack meant to be used as standalone armour, and is worn between mail and breastplate.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

So I was wrong about the weight of Padded Cloth in GURPS Low Tech, I remembered 4 lbs for the Torso + Groin. Realistically it might be fair to give most low-tech armour 4 pounds for DR 1 on the torso, but in Dungeon Fantasy type settings you want a way to distinguish between many styles of armour, and Dan wanted a type of armour to represent the padded armour in the Basic Set.

I think it is fair for iron armour + DR 1* linen armour to give -1 DX. Realistically this combination is hot and bulky, but since GURPS does not represent either a DX penalty is fair (alternatively, enforce an extra -1 FP after fights as if wearing winter clothing, page B426). The anonymous Byzantine on strategy actually says that many soldiers don't want to wear thick quilted garments under their armour, but they should because ... Many of the other sources are explicit that the quilted garment is worn over the iron mail.

We have two quilted garments from France in the 1200s: one is a quilted coat for a queen, the other is a sleeve for a soldier. Both are made in the same way, with unspun cotton quilted between layers of cloth. Ordinary European clothing from 1300 to 1600 probably has DR 1 (cut) on Torso, Arms, and sometimes Neck.

Yes, it is hard with just the painting. And so is deciding when to assess a penalty for wearing multiple layers of armour, but in a game, where you usually don't represent that the padded armour is DR 3 on the back but DR 1 in the area covered by the breastplate, it is fair to be strict. GMs who have worn armour can adjust the rules on a case-by-case basis. I would probably be generous to someone who wanted to wear just a Breastplate (Chest Front) over a specially made Layered Cloth garment, and harsh to someone who obviously just wanted the most DR for the least GURPS Dollars.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

In fact, Low Tech page 103 has a solution "However, DX penalties don’t apply if the total odds of partial armor protecting a hit location are 3 in 6 or less (see the Armor Locations Table, p. 100), or for armor that covers only the head."

I would rule that a breastplate (Chest Front) counts as "3 in 6 or less", so a Light Mail Torso + Arms, Layered Cloth Torso + Arms, and Plate Chest Front would count as two layers of armour. It would give -1 DX.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

I'd love to know from where you derive your information about kabadions. As far as I know, none survive.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

I already knew about the 3 in 6 or less rule, already applied in our campaings. However, I really like the idea of the extra FP loss for wearing such a layer of padding or overcoat, maybe united with a -1 penalty for Fast-Draw and DX rolls for readiness of reaction, instead of giving the full -1 DX penalty. This would give a valid reason to choose to not wear these items without giving an excessive penalty for those fighter that choose instead to wear them.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Cited from "A Companion to the Byzantine Culture of War, ca. 300-1204":

"A type of garment resembling a coat made of padded cotton opening in the centre front was the kabadion. There were two types of kabadia: (a) for the infantry, reaching down the knees, with long detachable sleeves split between the elbow and the wrist, and (b) for the horse archers, offering protection from the waist down to the lower part of the archer's body and part of the horse."

If it was something that "offered protection", then would be something at least somewhat thicker and heavier than GURPS Ordinary Clothing. And, in your own work for GURPS, you classified both the European aketon and the Eastern Roman kabadion as being GURPS Padded Cloth - and note, the point of the discussion isn't if these garments were "6 lbs. for 100% torso armour" in real life because 1) GURPS low-tech armour and items tend to be heavier than their real counterparts, and 2) the granularity and the abstraction of GURPS system doesn't take in account different sizes for the same SM and decimal DR variations. If I'm in error at translating these items as GURPS "Padded Cloth", well, then you did the same thing in your book.

To me, for game mechanics, an arming undergarment or overgarment a little heavier than the 3 lbs. Arming Doublet could be something like "Padded Cloth with Expert Tailoring" that count also as Ordinary Clothing, removing the need of a separate tunic: you can see it as being 3.5 lbs. of padding +1.6 lb. of Ordinary Clothing if you like. Worn as standalone armour, it would give DR 1* (-1 DR vs. impaling) or full DR 1*; worn with other armour that is designed to be worn with it, would give full DR 1* and no DX penalty. Note that the total weight is only +27.5% heavier that Light Leather/Winter Clothing designed to be worn with armour, is only +2% heavier than the full DR 1* Heavy Coat, it weight less than half than the Charles heavy pourpoint (which was IRL a thing that weighted 10 to 12 lbs. and that Polydamas, according to his writings, would consider as being "Light Layered Cloth") and does include in its stats a layer of Ordinary Clothing, which alone doesn't give any DR, but here is combined with this padding and the light padding that usually is included in armour stats.

For game balance, the result is +1* DR at a fair price (+$300 and +5.1 lbs. for 100% of torso armour); -1 to Fast-Draw rolls, -1 FP lost after an heavy fight.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

If it was light enough to be worn under armour then it didn't provide protection. The padded versions were standlone armour, just like the European ones.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

I wonder what the best (and easiest) way to show this in the system would be. A further penalty to hit, a bonus to defend against. I agree cascading hits are common in RL and you could adjust them for this, it's just they're not that common in GURPS (well IME)


That very good point about it needing to cover missile attacks as well. Thinking about this maybe a way to do this si add some more mods in the expanded posture rules in MA, to show that weapon with certain reaches are better able to hit legs on a standing target than others. (they seem to be more based aounr unarmed attacks combining with postures and locations)


Epee's an interesting one because it's the only one that allows leg hits to count.

Long ago I did foil (and a bit of sabre), and you were able to have as you say you leg extended quite far out relative to your torso, and it didn't matter.

I have little experience of Epee I wonder is there is much difference in the general fighting posture



Yep, which I guess is what we're trying to define in GURPS terms, so maybe a bonus to defence or retreat.

Not sure about that though, the HP/2 cripple threshold makes them pretty desirable. A crippled leg is IMO pretty much a fight-ender even if it's just in terms of what happens next. Given Cut is still x1.5 injury on legs, generally comes off Sw and if legs are generally speaking less well armoured.


So a ST/HP10 chap swinging a Sw+1 broadsword at another ST/HP10 chap's unarmoured leg, even if injury he can inflict is capped at 6hp, he will cripple the leg two thirds of the time

However this is going to depend on how much you and I see Imp and Cut attacks in our melee combat!

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Apparently that was one of the things which became standardized around WW II as the Olympic Games became more important. Until then, sport fencers in different countries had different traditions about whether cuts to the legs were allowed (just like some fencers recommend parrying low cuts, and others recommend withdrawing the leg and counterstriking).

Yes, in combat sports stance is determined by what targets count and which do not (and people often forget to defend against attacks which don't count in their favourite game). GURPS Martial Arts: Gladiators has a rule for exposing one area to protect another.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Is the Aketon in your "European crusader" write up that Rasna cites, basically just the exception that proves the general rule?

(Leaving aside the point that at DR1 this is the lowest possible protection a thing can have in GURPS terms, so it's really the least thick and cumbersome a padded shirt can get in the system and still be armour! And in reality everything is on a scale, and not hard and fast RPG system based cut offs!)

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

In your Loadouts, both the kabadion and the aketon are GURPS Padded Cloth and are worn under mail or lamellar (and the description specifies that they're worn under, not over, the armour). The Kiribati Warrior Loadout shows Medium Layered Cloth worn over Light Layered Cloth, which has two times the thickness and the weight of Padded Cloth (and in this case, the -1 DX for layering sounds right).

IMO which we consider "standalone armour designed for low-tech warfare" should be at least DR 2 (Light Layered Cloth/Leather). DR 1 is something between clothing and proper armour, more likely to be made to be worn with other forms of armour (as the Helmet Padding for example, which is Padded Cloth), or the "cheap quality armour" that abounds among modern reenactors.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

I started researching this over a decade ago. We know a little more about under-armour garments these days. If I were writing it today, I would treat all of these garments like regular clothing, with a DR of no more than 1 vs cutting only.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Cool,

cheers

TD

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

The problem with "padded garment" is that can be translated into GURPS different things:

Ordinary Clothing: DR 0*, 1.6 lb.
Arming Doublet: DR 0*, 2 lbs.
Coat: DR 0*, 2.5 lbs.
Light Leather/Winter Clothing: DR 0* (1* vs. cutting), 4 lbs.
Heavy Coat: DR 1*, 5 lbs.
Padded Cloth: DR 1*, 6 lbs.
Light Layered Cloth: DR 2*, 12 lbs.

Arming Doublet is worn with Plate Harness. Padded Cloth is worn as helmet padding or liner. According to Dan writings here:

Something that gives DR 1* vs. cutting only is heavy as Light Leather or Winter Clothing.
If I remember well, the Tlingit Warrior Loadout includes Light Leather apron and pants worn under the armour and the combination doesn't give any DX penalty.

What if we add another thing, lighter than Padded Cloth, similar to Arming Doublet and made to interact with another layer of armour? Example:

Arming Garment: DR 0* (1* vs. cutting) when worn alone, DR 1* vs. all attacks when is worn with armour which is designed to be don with it, 4 lbs.

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

Maybe aside from weight we need some kind of 'bulk' stat for armor related to its volume (and maybe friction?) to understand how it would impede movement?

Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
 

This is a good point. The "Holdout" value in part does effectively represent the "bulk" stat of the armour (more rigidity and more thickness does translate into more Holdout penalty since the armour is more difficult to conceal), but its minimum value is 0 and both Padded Cloth and Light Layered Cloth have Holdout 0. Maybe we can assign to Holdout stat of Padded Cloth and Light Leather the possibility to reach a positive value obtainable only via Expert Tailoring and Masterful Tailoring, thus lowering or negating the DX penalty for two layers being worn. DR 2* stuff (Light Layered Cloth, Light Layered Leather, Medium Leather) is definitely too bulky to be an undergarment, and should give a DX penalty if layered with something else, both as undergarment, overgarment or as something that goes between mail and other armour. Since the weight of GURPS low-tech armour and weapons tend to be heavier (up to +50% heavier in some cases, especially for hafted weapons) than their real counterparts, is not easy to translate real items into GURPS stats without affecting the game balance.