Ogre ramming
 

Ogre (Mark I?) moves up four hexes and encounters two men at arms with spears fixed.

The ogre moves another hex forwards against both of them. One of the spearsmen falls to the ground and the other makes his DX roll and backs up.

The spearsman who yielded ground then doesn't get the +2 DX for standing his ground.

Right?

Re: Ogre ramming
 

ITL 103 and 104 contradict each other. 103 says a figure MUST STOP once engaged. 104 explicitly allows a multi hex figure to push back small figures at the end of the move.

Also, the combined ST of the small figures must be less than 25 or the ogre can't push them back at all. One ST 12 and one ST 13 figures and the ogre is stuck

My ruling would be that the ogre can only push back 1 figure. The other figure does not roll 3/DX to stay upright and gets a Pole Weapon attack with +2 DX. The first figure gets a 3/DX roll to stay upright and if successful loses the +2 DX because the spear is no longer set though the attack still happens in the Pole Weapon sequence

Why only one figure? Feels right.

Re: Ogre ramming
 

Helborn,
Hcobb was not asking about how many can be pushed back. That part of the rules is clear. Strictly based on ST. He was simply asking if a pushed poleman looses his standing against a charge status.

Hi Hcobb,
The spearman that got pushed did not move, he was moved. I would still give him the +2 DX. I see it like this real world situation: It is like a horseman charging into a spearman. If the spearman fails his roll he was knocked down. If he doesn't he has a chance to impale the horse or rider. Or from a rules perspective I see that the spearman did not move during his movement phase and thus is entitled to the actions that require zero movement.

Would you say an archer that moved one hex but then got pushes by an ogre is not entitled to his lost shot with the bow because now his move + push equals two hexes? But an archer that did not move and was push CAN fire his last shot?

My opinion.

Re: Ogre ramming
 

So in TFT a spear has a longer reach than a sword, but a shorter reach than a foot.

I'll need to refactor Dragon firepower given their ability to (nonsensically) trample prepared lines of spears.

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/firepower.html

Re: Ogre ramming
 

I haven't seen any great solutions to things like cavalry charge and deliberate high-speed trampling or strafing. The issue seems to be structural. A cavalry charge or flying strafe would ideally happen during the movement phase. But then readied spears would only act afterwards in the action phase. Completely contrary to what anyone would want.

The move-then-act turn sequence which is so successful for many kinds of action just doesn't seem like a good fit for this.

Re: Ogre ramming
 

Rules-As-Written, the Push happens during Movement, the charge defense happens later, and since the figure did not stand still, he doesn't get the +2 DX.

It is a case where the RAW doesn't make much logical sense, so really I would use GM discretion (or houserule) otherwise rather than trying to figure out the technical most-accurate reading of the RAW. There is precedent in the Pike rules to let pole weapons reach being penetrated during movement get to attack during Movement, and I'm sure the reason that's not in the rules is to avoid complexity, even though it'd make more sense.

I, having played TFT and GURPS for decades, now greatly favor making sense over reduced complexity, so I'd tend to have the defensive polearm attacks happen before the Push, during Movment, if I were running a game for realism-oriented players rather than new people and/or people wanting to play RAW.

Re: Ogre ramming
 

TFT's rules are not presented at the sort of ASL-like level of detail that would explicitly deal with these sorts of special circumstances. I think the best you can do is make your own reasoned judgement about how the set-pole-arm rules interact with the push-back rules, and neither answer (you do or don't get the +2 bonus) could be said to be best for everyone. Personally, I would permit the set-vs.-charge bonus on the pushed-back spearman, simply because my visualization of the series of events is that the ogre charged into the scrum and must face the set spears of anyone who is able to keep their act together.

Re: Ogre ramming
 

You get sanity in the turn sequence if push back was restricted to shifts and not movement on turn of engagement.

Re: Ogre ramming
 

How does that help?

Re: Ogre ramming
 

Turn one: Dragon wanders up to line of spearmen and stops. Spearmen do the charge response thing then dragon claws and taillashes a few.
Turn two: Dragon pushes over a few spearsmen and forces the others back.

Re: Ogre ramming
 

Oh, right, thanks, I didn't get what you meant by "restricted to shifts".

Re: Ogre ramming
 

And here's my wording change:

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#Combat

Re: Ogre ramming
 

I'd prefer the method used by the Pike rules, where figures moving through the reach of a hand weapon can be attacked during the Movement Phase. I think that also works better for large figures that deny engagement by smaller figures, and for house rules about normal figures choosing to ignore engagement.

But, this is getting into House Rules, so should be in that subforum, not here in the main forum.

Re: Ogre ramming
 

As the wording in the new edition doesn't seem to match to how anybody actually plays the game it ought to count as errata.

Re: Ogre ramming
 

The push is the only reason a Ogre or Giant is a threat. Without it, the Giant is just a big soft target without armor and more often misses than hits. With the push now you have a terrifying threat for you low DX guys. It will push them over and gain a +4 DX striking at the fall champions.

That is, the push rule as it is makes really big creatures (larger than 1 hex) terrifying. Something that big should be terrifying.


You do have a good point that the spears should have connected before the push. Still I not changing the rules for this.

And I still disagree that a push counts as movement for setting against a charge.

Re: Ogre ramming
 

So the best way for a dragon to attack is to back over the humans, tail lashing any that make the push back DX roll then stomping on the fallen?

Re: Ogre ramming
 

Sometimes. I played some aerial combat recently with dragons and gargoyles, and in that case yes, the dragon got a lot of use out of knocking gargoyles out of the air by pushing into them.

Against ground figures, it depends on the full situation. Often staying flying and breathing fire down from out of reach is good especially for 7+ hex dragons, and/or flying and dodging until they win initiative and can use their flying MA to get into a good position, take out the mages and archers first, etc.

Pushing can be useful but has a big disadvantage that can make it backfire if the victims have good DX, because they get a 3/DX chance to get a free hex of movement instead of falling, which in many cases would let them shift from a Front hex to a Side hex, which sucks for the larger figure. Also, even if they fall, they get another 3/DX roll to roll out from under, moving a hex and standing up, which can also suck for the larger figure. So the larger figure really needs to think about the map position and what the odds are like.