Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

The ability to combine defend and attack options allows the Octopus to survive for round after round, but it doesn't do quite as much total damage as the poisonous 7-headed hydra.

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/firepower.html

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

Not getting killed is better than theoretical ability to do damage.

For example, the battle in one of my games some months ago where a 7-hex hydra cornered a not-so-large party of fairly capable humans.

Well, the people with higher adjDX than the hydra managed to do just enough damage to knock it down before it could attack (pointing out that that number is a bit generic and perhaps low, especially for very-high-ST monsters). Game over, zero damage done by the hydra.

But as you've pointed out before, the new talents that give 5 dice to hit while Defending can be hard to deal with (but q.v. missile weapons, spells, HTH...).

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

My firepower calculations assume an endless supply of Myrmidons with small shields to pound on unless these would be useless against the monsters.

Truly optimized parties could take down any monster much easier, but this is just for comparing monsters against each other to give a feel for how many critters to throw at each party.

My rule of thumb is that matching the party's total CP in firepower should make them sweat.

CP calculator: https://www.hcobb.com/tft/tftcalc.html (33 CPs for a starting PC)

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

Adding CP of multiple figures tends not to be a solid measure of power. One 40-point figure can take out three 24-point figures per turn with sweeping blows, for example, but the CP total of 3 24-point figures is 72.

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

The UC-V fighter has 40 attribute points and therefore a minimum CP rating of 115, more if she adds gear or more than four memory points in extra talents or spells.

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/tftcalc.html

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

I think he's using a different definition of "CP".

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

CPs: hundreds of XPs from zero stats and zero gear. (C in the Latin sense)

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

That's not the issue. The issue is that it does not work to just add a point value like this (whichever unit is used) for multiple figures of different types and expect to get a meaningful comparison of combat ability.

It's bad enough trying to use such a formula to evaluate who's more dangerous one-on-one. As soon as you add multiple figures, all bets are off, and noting that some UC V character has a high rating is not relevant to that.

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

For certain values of "does not work", I have to agree. But I find it useful to have a simple value to compare when trying to balance combats. The cold hard truth is that the dice don't get rolled often enough in a single fight to overcome the chaos inherent in the 3d6 bell curve. Things just aren't that predictable in the short term.

All that aside, it's a place to start, and the GM can easily fudge the upcoming encounters based on the current state of the party. It's also useful if you want to exchange foes for ones of similar prowess. Your mileage may vary, but I'm happy to at least have something reasonable, if not very precise.

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

Even in the old game stating that the scenario was for four 35 attribute characters made a lot of assumptions about the amount of bling those characters would have with them.

Here I roll all of that into one not terribly precise "CP" number. In a given CP budget you can design the "best" party to deal with a specific list of challenges, but I doubt that there is even a limited set of characters who are optimized to take on every task.

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

I'm confused by the premise of the OP. You can't seriously mean that you think and Octopus with shield expertise would win a fight against a 14 hex dragon. Do you? The dragon could just fly by and torch it at will without risking engagement. I can't imagine how it would even be a fight.

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

This isn't a monster vs monster fight. As Protagoras said, Myrmidon is the measure of all things. The octopus is weighing in against swordsmen while the dragon is doing hit and run on spears and crossbow men.

For monster vs monster I'd need an AI cage match system. And then I'd wind up with rock-paper-scissors style match ups of Basilisk beats Ogre beats Dragon beats Basilisk.

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

Yes, it is useful. I still often use my own system to estimate appropriate XP awards.

I think it's even more useful to be aware of the potential errors in adding such values together. Hcobb seemed to me to be writing as if it should work to add the values for a group together and compare to a single foe, and there are many issues with trying to do that. So I was trying to be helpful by pointing that out.


And thank goodness, or else gameplay would be rather more predictable. I don't like Stratego and certainly don't want to roleplay it.


The GM can, but I hope the GM won't.

I agree it's valuable to have a formula for estimating the combat ability of things. More accurate is to look at the stats and use play experience and imagination to figure out how dangerous things are.

However I greatly prefer to play in a gameworld where what NPCs of what numbers and power levels exist where it makes sense for them to exist, and the GM provides fairness and balance by giving the players logical opportunities for their PCs to learn what that situation is and respond to it to mitigate danger by their choices, and not have it be that metamagically wherever they go and whatever they do, they will only meet things that are estimated to be somewhat weaker than they are.

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

Fair points all.

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

Two crossbow artists w/missile weapons who aren't afraid to roll-to-miss, and two dual-wielding javelin/whip users with pole expertise and tactics
:)

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

Going by CP, this gent is worth 66 CP, is he equal to two starting characters in terms of clearing a dungeon?

ST 11, DX 14(14), IQ 13 (38 attributes)
Knife, Pole Weapons, Shield, Shield Expertise, Sword, Weapon Expertise(Polearms), Weapon Mastery(Polearms)
1-h Very Fine Spear with +1 damage enchantment(1d+5), $800+$1000
Small Shield (2), $30
Leather armor with +1 enchantment(3), $1100
Stone Flesh ring(4), $4000
+2 DX ring, $4000
ordinary dagger(1d-1), $10
$60 of other gear to get up to $11k total

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

In my online adventure the researcher figured out that a wight was waiting, so this wasn't enough.

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

Right -- lucky they also have magic bolts, javelins, and flaming whips

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

Again, not only are you trying to reduce a multi-dimensional question down to a one-dimensional value (and not thinking about where "zero" should be), but you are also still trying to be able use addition of those values to give you a value for a group. Those are all fundamental errors that make your calculation impossible unless the particulars happen to align.

So it depends on the situation and what figures do.

But the basic answer is heck no, that character is vastly more capable than most pairs of ordinary non-munchkin 32-point characters. Especially in tunnel situations where he may be quite able to fight only one or two opponents at a time.

He's a good example too of why to really estimate effectiveness, you need to look at specific values. That guy typically has 9 armor, making a huge range of attackers almost unable to hurt him, for just one example.

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

Okay, the super spearsman against the Elf Mage twins:

ST 6 DX 15 IQ 11
Silver dagger(1d-1)
Knife, Sleep, etc.

Sleep him and slit his throat.

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

I don't know what you think you're arguing, or why, and sure that specialized pair of 32-pointer wizards seem to have a good way to beat the 38-point magic spear munchkin (as does anyone who has a good plan for casting Sleep or Freeze on him).

They certainly don't answer your original question "is he equal to two starting characters in terms of clearing a dungeon?"

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

During my military years (1979+), I recall reading somewhere that it was thought that 1 trained soldier was worth the square of 2 untrained (1.44) because one (lucky?) shot could resolve the issue.
Not sure if it translates well to Medieval times.

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

The modern US military tends not to be big on weighing soft factors in its models. At least when I was developing wargames for them, it was said they didn't like to include training, experience etc in calculations. Maybe it's also thought best not to rely on that, and for training games, to have the effects of training be behavior of the players. However the "special" forces seem to think lots of training is worthwhile.

Some medieval historians I've read have commented that it seems military strength seemed to be roughly estimated by the number of reliable armored men one had (which, as in TFT but I'd think for somewhat different reasons, had some correspondence to ability).

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

It is for good 'gamist' reasons, but armor is not realistically valued in TFT (i.e., the DX penalty and damage reduction are closely similar in 'firepower' value), so the measuring of strength by number of armored combatants isn't a great metric in the game.

Re: Octopus with Shield Expertise is more deadly than a 14-hex dragon
 

Indeed, unless they have enough DX to overcome it. ;-)