Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

I like the Vulcan ones a lot. DO the other races here have common psionic powers like the Vulcans have telepathy? (Like Tellarites and biokenesis). If so, are there other types of psi-tech that are characteristic of particular races? Are there any types that are unique (or nearly so) for specific races?

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

While the Vulcan/Romulan reveal was great in the original series and they have gotten some mileage out of it through the franchise: it isn't a surprise any more. I'd want the romulans to have some mystery about them.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Some probably do, though apart from those that have them in the source material, I'm undecided as to which.

Still undecided, but as you may have guessed, the Tellarites are very good at medical psi-tech.

Possibly, but currently undecided.

OK, I can see that, but I'm not sure what you're voting for (though that may just be me being tired). Could you clarify, please?

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

I'll take whichever option leaves the Romulans entirely mysterious, so I can slot in a race on demand (i.e. Vicious snake people, Outcast humans, Romulan Classic, Tentacled telepaths, Green Andorians, whatever).

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

OK, so two clear votes for 'pretty much canon,' one clear vote for 'less mysterious' (in the sense that their identities would be already known), and two votes for 'more mysterious' (yours and isf's).

I was going to close the vote, but there's no clear winner, so it remains open far another day or two, I guess. Anyone else want to speak up? Otherwise, I'll use my vote as a tiebreaker.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

I'd vote for the Romulans to still be a mystery. For example in my st game, the romulan star empire is a multi-species polity known to be ruled by a senate drawn from eligible patricians who have romanesque naming patterns. The unknown part is that elevation to the patrician class is being joined with a trill-like symbiont (the names reflect the symbiont's experience and lineage). The symbiont's existence is unknown outside of the empire and mostly secret within it. The first romulans seen by the feds may well have been a vulcan descended crew.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

I'd also vote for "still a mystery", too.

I'd also vote that, for Psi-Trek, the war has yet to actually start in earnest.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

OK, it occurred to me after I got some sleep that I could have just declared the vote closed and started the new one on which specific form of 'modified canon' is preferred (which so far seems to be 'mysterious Romulans'). Unfortunately, if I never posted while tired, I would only post maybe a tenth as often, I think.

Anyway, I'm thinking that I'll close this vote tomorrow (meaning 11/16/2019) if nothing stops me from posting, and if the current trend remains unchanged, start another one just to make sure of which form of modified canon the consensus finds acceptable (as there were already votes for something other than 'more mysterious Romulans,' and the people who preferred 'pretty much canon' and 'less mysterious Romulans' deserve to have a say in what sort of modified canon we end up with, as do those who haven't voted, but still might).


That's more a matter of when you're setting your game, I think. If I run a game in this setting, I'd probably be planning to run it somewhere around a century after the Romulan War, but running it before the war is certainly an option, and one that I could also have fun with (and there are sure to be players out there who want a game set during the Romulan War).

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Romulan War - modified canon specifics

OK, since we're going with Modified canon (with Romulans), now is the time to vote on what sort of modifications we're going to have:

1: Less mysterious Romulans, such as their identities already being known during the Romulan War.

2: Less isolationist Romulans, as in they communicate and trade after the war, rather than cutting themselves off as they did in canon. Goes hand-in-hand with '1,' as being mysterious would be rather difficult when they're trading and having diplomatic relations with people.

3: More mysterious Romulans, so they aren't known, yet, and might not be a Vulcanian offshoot.

4: More alien Romulans, meaning that they're either not a Vulcanian offshoot at all, or they're a shoot that's much further off.

5: Something else. Please specify what.


Please include the number of your preferred vote (or votes, if you want to combine a couple of the compatible ones).

EDIT: Option 3 is the winning vote.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Again, I'll take 3, so 4 is possible.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

3 has my vote. 4 is a compatible option, but I'd rather the Romulans be Vulcans with an alien culture rather than a different morphology due to being a distant offshoot.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

I like option 2. Though 1-4 are all good.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

OK, three votes total is kind of small, so I'm leaving this vote open until at least Friday (11/22/2019).

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

I would prefer either of these

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Alright, I guess there aren't going to be any more votes, so option three wins. I'll probably put up another question tomorrow, or not long thereafter, I just want to review them when I'm less tired than I am now.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

The Federation, or something else?

What sort of polity are our heroes from. Note that the ones not selected are still viable for a 'Mirror, Mirror' type of session or campaign arc. Please include the number when you vote.

1: United Federation of Planets
Something pretty close to the canon Federation of Kirk's era, but possibly fleshed out more. Won't necessarily have exactly the same Star Fleet, but it could be quite similar.

2: United Space Authority
A defensive pact similar to NATO, but with trade agreements, some degree of technology-sharing and such, and extradition and other mutual agreements to smooth over law enforcement in their combined territory. So, less of a political union, but still an organization that exercises authority over a volume of space. Has some form of unified Star Fleet/Space Force/Space Patrol, but most likely not exactly the same one as canon (though if we keep the name I gave it, spacecraft names could still have the USS prefix, and it'll make more sense than the UFP using it). My preferred option.

3: Terran Empire
Not necessarily evil, and not necessarily ruled by an emperor, but Terran humanity is the dominant partner in this polity, to the point that de facto, it is their empire. It might not even be the result of conquest, as if they both recovered well from the Genetics Wars and had really good luck, they could have managed to economically dominate their neighbors, and parley that into political dominance. It does require more justification than the others, though. Whether it's evil or not, and how or what sort of evil, can be determined by the individual GMs and player groups.

4: Another Metropole
The dominant polity in the region is primarily ruled by a single race, but that race is not Terran humanity. The Solar Cooperative is a member-state in someone else's empire (or hegemony, or co-prosperity sphere, or whichever). This will most likely require other votes afterward, to determine who is running things, and how the SC happened to become part of this empire.

5: No 'Federation' or equivalent
The Solar Cooperative, Interplanetary Confederacy of Vulcan, Pachekki Solidarity, and so on have various trade and defence treaties, but no over-arching, permanent alliance, and thus no singular Star Fleet (though there may be exchange personnel on each others' vessels sometimes, which is useful to players, and sometimes to GMs). This is probably the case for games set during or prior to the Romulan War.

6: Other
Something else; please describe your preference. This will probably also require another vote, unless everyone who responds likes the same 'something else.'


EDIT: The winner seems to be '2: United Space Authority.'

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

I would take 1, for maximum Trek feel: Space America going about and exploring new worlds. On the other hand, 3 leads to interesting worldbuilding questions, and 5 could lead to interesting diplomatic situations trying to build case 1 (or maybe 2 as a stepping stone). Leaving it to the dice: 3.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

... should I assume that 3 is your intended answer, then? It looks like it is, but I'd prefer to be certain of it.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Yes, I couldn't decide so I rolled.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

My vote is 2 with a movement to forming a 1.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

My first vote is two, to make for excellent politics.

My second vote is four, also because it makes politics.

Basing the federation on a tight economic and political integration (option 1) is fine.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

This would be my choice: it is what I'm going to be using in my upcoming ST game

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

I like options 1 and 2 the best. If I were trying to match the feel of ST, then 1 would win.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

OK, it doesn't look like anyone else is going to vote, so the poll is closed. If I've counted right, option 2 wins.

Depending on which I have ready soonest, the next question will be on weapons (grenades and melee weapons are pretty close to postable), or one of the templates that I'm working on, or I'll post an idea I have for the United Space Authority's Space Forces.... or I might get an Idea unrelated to any of them, and do that. Anyone have suggestions?

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Preliminary Vulcanian Template, help wanted

Attributes

ST +7 [70]; DX +2 [40]; IQ +1 [20]; HT 11 [10]

Secondary Characteristics

Will +2 [10]; Per +1 [5]

Social Background

Languages: Vulcanian/T'Khasi (Native) [0].

TL: 10^

Cultural Familiarity: Modern Vulcanian/T'Khasi [0].

Subtotal: 155


Advantages

Acute Hearing 2 [4]
Eidetic Memory [5]
Extended Lifespan (Early Maturation) 1.5 [3]
Less Sleep 4 [8]
Longevity [2]
Nictitating Membrane 2 [2]
Reduced Consumption (Cast-Iron Stomach, -50%) 1 [1]
- Reduced Consumption (Water Only, -50%) 2 [1]
Temperature Tolerance # []

Protected Power (Telepathy) [5]
Sleep (Nuisance Effect: Must touch target near the spine, -5%) 2 [27]
Suggestion 3 [30]
Telereceive (Link: Telesend, +10%) 1 [25]
Telesend (Link: Telereceive, +10%; Cannot lie with Telesend, -10%) 1 [9]
Teleshout (Telesend; Long-Range, +50%; Emergencies Only, -30%; Nuisance Effect: Brief message Only, -10%; Telepathy, -10%) [30]
Telepathy Talent 2 [10]

Perks

Near-Death Possession. [1]
Poker Face. [1]

Subtotal:


Disadvantages

Code of Honor (Vulcanian) [-5]
Pon-farr [??]
Reduced Endurance 1 [-3]

Quirks

Vegitarian. [-1]

Subtotal: -


Features


Skills

Autohypnosis [Will/H] [4] IQ]
Meditation [Will/H] [4] IQ]
Mental Strength [Will/E] [2] IQ+1
Philosophy (Surakism) [IQ/H] [4] IQ

Psi Skills to be added later.

Techniques

Subtotal:

Total:

Notes

(EDIT: Note that I don't have Prime Directive 4e, and don't want to copy the templates from it if I do get it.)

This assumes a Vulcanian of approximately the era of First Contact with humanity.

'Extended Lifespan (Early Maturation) 1.5' is meant to represent the fact that Vulcanians can live for over 250 years, but apparently not 360. Including Early Maturation just means that Vulcanians reach adulthood around the same chronological age as humans.

Reduced Consumption is split like that to express how the Vulcanian metabolism works: they have an adaptable digestive system, and thus while they need as much food as humans in terms of quantity, they can handle bad or strange food and somewhat brackish water, and being desert-dwellers, they also need less water on average than humans do.

The Vulcanian version of Sleep normally advances at a rate of 27 points per level from level 2 on, remaining a touch-only attack. 'Teleshout' is the telepathic contact Spock received in 'The Immunity Syndrome' when the crew of the USS Intrepid died: In an emergency, Vulcanians can transmit a brief message at ranges of multiple parsecs. Near-Death Possession is the telepathic equivalent of Near-Death Projection: When Vulcanians know they are about to die, they can mind-meld with someone, and prepare them to carry their katra (spirit), as Spock did to McCoy in Star Trk II and Star Trek III The katra can later be stored in psychotronic vessels, equivalent to a magical Soul Jar. Poker Face is the ability to not have your emotions show easily.

The Vulcanian Code of Honor revolves mainly around acting on logic over emotion, mastering one's passions, respecting intelligence and intellectual accomplishments, and requires not showing emotions to an obvious degree, but also includes upholding Vulcanian traditions, many of which do not appear to be logical in a modern civilization. The contradiction has lead to many philosophical debates, and many commentaries on the works of Surak and his students. In many cases, this involves starting with the conclusion that they want, and constructing a logical argument for why it must be so.

Not totally sold on the version of Mind Meld above (Telesend and Telereceive Linked), though it's probably pretty close. Also, not sure what disadvantages should be brought together to simulate pon-farr.


Thoughts?

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

To the first, I'd say that given that Pon-farr happens every 7 years, it might show up once a campaign, and is probably just a quirk. To the second, I'd have to say that it really comes down to campaign philosophy; if characters are built on 500 points, or racial templates are free, then it's probably fine. If not, no one will play Vulcans, or the template needs cuts.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

One thought that I had to reduce the point cost is to have Suggestion or Teleshout be the primary in a set of Alternative Abilities containing most of the rest of the Vulcanian mental powers.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

I rearranged the telepathic abilities a little:

Protected Power (Telepathy) [5]
Suggestion 3 [30]
^ Mind Meld (Alternate Ability of Suggestion; Telereceive 1 [21] + Telesend (Cannot lie with Telesend, -10%) 1 [8]) 1 [6]
^ Sleep (AA of Suggestion; Nuisance Effect: Must touch target near the spine, -5%) 2 [5]
^ Teleshout (AA of Suggestion; Telesend; Long-Range, +50%; Emergencies Only, -30%; Nuisance Effect: Brief message Only, -10%; Telepathy, -10%) [6]
Telepathy Talent 2 [10]


Thoughts?

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Grenades

Grenades don't appear much in Star Trek. We see a Photon Grenade Launcher in one episode of the original series, and I don't recall if we see any Starfleet-issue grenades in TNG, DS9, or VOY at all. Given the term 'photon grenade,' I'd say that despite what the writer of the linked page thinks, they're probably matter-antimatter grenades (consistent with the Antimatter question, above, but not an absolute requirement for grenades). This isn't as dangerous as you might think: a society that can safely store antimatter for long periods, safely transfer it into a small warhead, and safely shoot that warhead at the enemy with a realistic expectation that the warhead will go off consistently and efficiently, right when it's supposed to, will thus have an excellent 'dial a yield' weapon (anywhere from 'radioactive flash-bang' to 'destroy a city,' possibly). A micro-nuke would be in some ways more dangerous, due to the need for a terribly-short half-life, and thus a need for much heavier radiation shielding (or psi-based radiation shields that require humans to be nearby pretty frequently). It also wouldn't be that good at dialing the yield down. Of course, it could be that it's a psi-based fusion grenade, meaning that the psychotronics within only need to work once, a little after it's thrown or shot, to rapidly and very tightly compress a small amount of hydrogen.

As noted in the 'Phasers' article, power cells put on 'overload' can explode with a fair bit of force, because any battery or capacitor able to power an energy weapon is theoretically capable of being used to make a bomb. How much force I'm not entirely certain of, as Ultra-Tech is fairly well-known on these forums as an interesting but rushed product. Suggestions?

Other grenades that might exist in this setting include most of the psi-bombs in Psi-Tech (pp28-29), Pizard's grenades, and any from GURPS Ultra-Tech or other supplements that the GM feels like allowing, but Star Trek writers just don't seem to have been all that interested in grenades.

The question is, what grenades do we want in the setting?


EDIT: The rough consensus seems to be that grenades in the Psi Trek setting, at least as used by the Star Fleet or equivalent, should come in 'a variety of exotic charges,' rather than going for bigger explosions.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

The problem with dial-a-yield antimatter that is that once your grenade starts to go off, all the antimatter in it is going to annihilate within a timescale of milliseconds, at most. Present-day dial-a-yield H-bombs work by preventing stages of the bomb from detonating, which isn't really an option with antimatter.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

My assumption with antimatter dial-a-yield is that the antimatter is stored somewhere other than the grenade until just before use, and the yield is dialed in by setting how much antimatter the grenade gets.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

I think much of an antimatter-matter reaction involves lots of neutrinos that are effectively lost as they don't interact with normal matter or energy.
Psi Trek could use technobabble to increase or decrease that to alter the grenade's yield.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

City demolishing grenades don't really fit well with Star Trek at all, or even as grenades really. These would be Davy Crockett style pieces of artillery. If Starfleet or whoever actually decided they needed to blow up a city sized area, it makes more sense to have a starship just bombard the area. Man portable artillery would make most sense as anti-personnel weapons, and maybe area denial weapons.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Grenades in the modern incarnation don't feel very star trek. However, hand-sized devices that blow up, emit loud noises, alter minds, or any of a dozen other effects are very trekish. These generally are placed rather than thrown, or might scurry into place by themselves. They have a very similar size and effect to grenades, and there is not logical reason why they wouldn't be more common in trek warfare, especially in combat on-board starships, with tight spaces and abundant corners.

An anti-matter "grenade" isn't a grenade, its a small bomb you place and then run to get away from.

star-trek has something of a pacifist bent, which may explain the lack of grenades, at least among the federation. I think grenades should be either blatantly ignored or a variety of exotic charges should be encouraged.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

OK, does anyone object to the idea that grenades in Psi Trek, at least as used by the Star Fleet or equivalent, should come in 'a variety of exotic charges?'

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

The Psionic equivalent of a flash bang would be useful for non-psionic people when dealing with psionics.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

There's a few of those in the Psi-Tech book, and possibly in Ultra-Tech.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Melee Weapons

Star Fleet in canon doesn't seem to have a lot of interest in melee weapons, outside of the Mirror Universe. The closest thing to a Star Fleet-issue melee weapon we see in TOS is the thing Kirk pulls out of a panel in Engineering when he was fighting Khan in Space Seed, and that was probably a component of the ship rather than something intended to be used as a weapon as its primary purpose. Pretty much every time we see a Starfleet officer from the twenty-third century onward with a melee weapon, they're either improvised like that, given to them by someone else (e. g. just about every episode that has gladiatorial combat in it), less-lethal practice weapons (e. g. fencing foils or the padded sticks used in anbo-jyutsu), taken from an enemy (e. g. a lot of episodes where they get into fights with Klingons in the Next Gen era), or the personal property of that specific individual (e. g. the Klingon weapons owned by Worf and Dax). It's a bit different in the 22nd century, where at least the MACOs carry stun batons, but even then we rarely see even survival knives, something that really would have been a good idea on multiple occasions (Tucker uses one once in ENT that might be standard issue, and Janeway got one out of a weapons locker in VOY, but the writers otherwise seem to forget that Starfleet might have them).

In theory, it makes sense, they have really effective ranged weapons, and are supposed to look for non-violent solutions anyway, but Star Fleet personnel get into a lot of melee combat, where such tools would be very useful.

Do we want our Star Fleet-expy to have some melee weapons as standard issue, and if so, what should they have?

My own suggestion is that Swiss Army knives and survival knives are standard issue, that stun batons (possibly something like Pizard's Shock Batons or Shock Rods, if we don't go for something more psi-tech-y) and collapsible batons are commonly carried by security personnel and such (and are available to others if, for example, someone thinks an away team might need them), and that officers and NCOs have swords for ceremonial purposes, but very rarely use them in combat. Bayonets I'm less sure about, but the survival knife being usable as a bayonet makes sense, and has been done by a number of real-world militaries.


EDIT: The conclusion seems to be that the Star Fleet expy will have survival knives and probably other multitools, but won't generally be big on melee weapons outside of personal possessions and unusual circumstances.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Star trek gear has always had this fantastic minimalism to it, where most the tools they need can fit into their pockets. I think that drives the lack of survival tools in at least some part.

Star trek ranged weapons should be sufficient to compete with melee weapons. I have no problem missing them as a melee weapon.

I do think some survival tools would be very useful. If possible, they should be built into those tiny pocket tools, or the small handheld devices should be able to manufacture the tools on site.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Starfleet phasers look awfully fragile and never seem to need reloading; bayonets seem unnecessary. On swords, starfleet is so demilitarized them being armed with swords makes no sense. Survival Knives make sense, and batons only make sense if "stun" is too lethal or failure prone.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

OK, that's two votes (one of them being mine) for our Star Fleet expy having survival knives, and one for no standard-issue melee weapons, but yes for survival tools/multitools. Anyone else want to weigh in?

EDIT: ericthered, I've been reading your blog, and am working on a question for this thread to vote on, related to the 'Eggshells with Hammers' issue for GURPS Spaceships. BTW, when you checked the scaling of armour, did you also check the scaling of force fields?

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Thank for the interest.

If you accept armor DR scaling linearly with its thickness*, The armor in spaceships scales wonderfully, and force screens scale just like armor systems. The DR value is consistently twice the value of the best armor at that TL, and four times if you pay for the heavy screens (which don't actually weigh more).

*something that is very true in gurps for larger values of armor, but that I'm less sure about for human scale armor. It plays well with the damage used for gurps weapons by caliber and by energy output, though the scaling of caliber sizes on spaceships in the book is quite odd.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Huh. If our Star Fleet expy normally springs for heavy screens, that probably solves the Eggshells with Hammers issue in a way that's consistent with both the show's setting, and how I'm imagining this setting.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

I think that it would be situational: technicians on the ship probably carry the equivalent of a multitool and away teams often carry a basic survival kit (something on the order of a couple of pounds plus any needed equipment for the environment they are going to. I think that the various uniform options should build on a basic emergency vacsuit, adding jackets, boots, packs and such as needed by mission and/or job.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Force screens is the TL11^ technology that makes those pesky TL7 missiles behave. Using larger ships also helps weaken missiles, so star trek is in a pretty good place on the egg-shells with hammers front. You still need to respect x-ray lasers though: At SM+10 a major x-ray laser battery does an average of 100(5) damage against the 300 DR heavy force screen for an average of 40 damage against a 150 HP ship. The equivalent missiles do an average of 240 damage against the 300 DR heavy screen. Also, its easier to add more forcescreens and hard to increase damage.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

OK, the question that I was going to ask no-longer makes as much sense as I thought, and may not be needed, so here's a different one:


Earliest 'Preserver' Activity question

This is another one that probably should have been asked sooner. When did the Preservers or their equivalent begin taking life-forms from Earth and settling them on other worlds? The farther back it is, the more likely that there were multiple groups doing this, but that's another question. I'll also probably be asking how often they did, and when they stopped, but again, those are questions for later.

Please include the number when you vote.

1. Prior to 66 million years ago.

2. Circa the K-T Event (66 million year ago, approximately).

3. Circa the Eocene-Oligocene extinction event (about 34 million years ago).

4. Circa the Middle Miocene disruption (about 14 million years ago).

5. Circa the Lower Paleolithic (around 3 million yeas ago).

6. Circa the Toba Event (closer to 70,000 years ago, rather than the actual eruption).

7. Circa the Quaternary extinction event (around 10,000 years ago).

8. Circa the Protohistorical era (in the rough vicinity of 5,000 years ago).

9. More recently than protohistory (please specify).


Thoughts?

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

2, if you're going to use it to have a less silly reason for the Voth or have Kirk ride a Brontosaurus.

No earlier than 6 if you want to place Humans civilizations around, like in the TOS episode.

Somewhere between if you're using them as an excuse for why everybody is Humanoid.

Not one for all three decisions unless you have a good excuse for why there all gone.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

I'm I've two minds. One half of me says to aim for the 400,000 year mark (in the middle of the big gap between 5 and 6), so as to give humans adequate time to evolve and develop on their new home-worlds. The other half of me says to target 7, so that we have an excuse for everyone developing space travel at the same time.

And if we want to use an earlier wave of seeding, that should be a different group.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

I'm in the "between 5 and 7" era myself, but probably closer to 6.

For a wider ranging set of life, you may want to have each of those be true! The Preservers just kept coming back to Earth to see how things have changed, or perhaps different waves of Preservers stopping by each time.


And be sure to add a more historical incident for some of their activity as well. You never know when you may want to run "A Piece of the Action" with mobsters from the actual 1920s.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

I personally lean towards 7 myself. 10K years gives the displaced humans plenty of time to develop their own unique cultures. That may also be long enough for some minor adaptation to occur.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

My intention is that there probably have been multiple waves of seeding, possibly by different groups (unless people vote against that in a later question). The question here is just when the earliest known wave happened. I'm starting to wonder, given the comments that I'm seeing, whether that was unclear in the question post.

Basically, this was intended to be the first of at least four related question posts:

* When was the earliest Preserver activity?

* When was the most recent wave of Preserver activity?

* How many distinct waves of Preserver activity have their been?

* How many different groups of Preservers have their been (e. g. a single group, one per wave, et cetra)?

Please don't try to answer the other three questions, yet, just the first one.


If anyone wants to change their votes after reading this post, feel free.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Well 2, for Brontosaurus riding Kirk.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

That would be 1, since the Brontosaurus seems to have gone extinct before the K-T Event.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

It's full cliche trek to have some intelligent descendants of non-avian dinosaurs. Maybe one pre-K-T event, but the event itself could be why there was no other pick up for millions of years. The precursors got distracted or something so waited longer than was entirely necessary to return.

Since Star Trek loves tossing out "convergent evolution" to explain things, it doesn't have to be a literal brontosaurus to look exactly like one. Simply a dinosaur that happened to evolve into something nearly identical would fit, IMO.

(As to maybe having more than one precursor for such a huge time span of abductions, you could make them time travelers. Their meddling and taking large groups of life forms could have been the reason for their demise as well as why there's nearly no evidence they ever existed. It's also a good reason why extant species don't screw around with time travel research.)

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Well, that or this particular set of Precursors is a big fan of Big Reptiles, then K-T and it's all gone.

--

Actually, the time-travelling precursors works real well for Trek. You have a coherent reason for very particular time travel mechanics (Precursor Artifact). You can copy critters and civilizations from any point in history. Heck, you can even leave bizarre Never Wases around (i.e. The Omega Glory). It gives the GM license for whatever the GM likes. I'll change my vote to that.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

OK, I'm not calling the vote yet, because I don't think that there's a clear winner (it looks like there isn't, unless I miscounted due to tiredness; it doesn't help that some of you gave replies of 'either this one or that one'). I'll probably close the voting tomorrow or Saturday, and if necessary have a run-off vote to try to narrow it down.

If anyone missed it, this is for the earliest known Preserver activity, while the most recent will be another vote. Whether the Preservers are time travelers or not (or some are and others aren't), there would still be an 'earliest known activity' and a 'latest known activity.'

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

For earliest? one. if you're going to do over 10 million years, you've got to grab dinosaurs.

EDIT: either grab dinosaurs, or start grabbing less than 3 million years ago (but much more than 70k)

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

About the only easily recognizable pre-10 million BP life forms I can think of are dinosaurs. So if one doesn't want or need those, then a much more recent earliest activity would suffice.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Personally, I'd go with the oldest identifiable Precursor excursion as circa 3 million years ago, with a fierce debate raging over what appear to be terrestrial dinosaurs being convergent evolution or Precursor excursions.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

That could work well, IMHO.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

EDIT: information edited into previous post

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Anyone can modify their vote until I close it, which I haven't, yet. I'd prefer that the post that your old vote was in be edited, like for example using the strikethrough option ('[ s ] <words> [ / s ]' with the spaces removed, if anyone is wondering), or just editing the vote there to change it.

Currently planning to close the voting tomorrow. Hopefully I won't be too tired, and will be able to count up the votes. It doesn't help when a vote given is unclear.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

OK, voting is closed. I'm going to do something that I probably should have done yesterday, or possibly even Wednesday, but I only came up with it in the past hour or so.

Dinosaurs and Earliest 'Preserver' Activity questions, revised

OK, here's two questions to resolve the issue (I hope). The answers are in different formats, so I should be able to tell which answer goes to which question. I recommend answering both questions, but if you only care about one, answering only that one is fine.

First question: It's been mentioned that even if the earliest known examples of Preserver activity date from long after the K-T Event, lifeforms closely resembling dinosaurs and other species long extinct on Earth could still be found on other planets due to convergent evolution (or genetic engineering, or both).

That being said, do you want dinosaurs et al, or sufficiently close equivalents thereof, to be alive in this setting?

Please answer with either 'YES' in all caps, or 'NO' in all caps. Answers with both will be ignored, answers that don't use all caps might be missed.


Second question: When did the Preservers or their equivalent begin taking life-forms from Earth and settling them on other worlds?

Please include the number when you vote. I would prefer of you only vote for one option, to avoid confusion.

1. Long before the rise of humanity (significantly more than 3 million years ago.

2. Circa 3 million yeas ago.

3. Circa 70,000 years ago.

4. Circa 10,000 years ago.

5. Circa 5,000 years ago.

6. More recently than 5,000 years ago (please specify).


Hopefully, this will get a result that everyone is reasonably happy with.


EDIT: The consensus is YES to dinosaurs and such, and 3 million years ago for the earliest known Preserver activity.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Yes, I would like dinosaurs.

earliest preservers should start moving things around 500,000 years ago, so 2.5 (you really have an uneven gap between 3 million and 70 thousand, its a factor of about x40)

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

A) Dinosaurs!

//B) I don't know. I'm not sure what they're purpose is for the setting. Explain why exterior shots look like California? Explain why everything's Humanoid? Excuse to recycle civilizations (like in Trek)? Explain similar organic chemistry? Depending on the reason, the answer differs.

EDIT B) I'll go with number 2.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

OH HELLS YES! :) Gotta have the alien dino-riders.

This was a tough choice, between 3 million and 70 thousand. I'm gonna have to go with 3 million, though.


That said, keep things interesting by having the Precursors continue to grab people up through the 20th Century. That way you can have your Kohms and Yangs still duking it out in the post-nuclear apocalypse world.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

YES

I choose option 2. Circa 3 Million Years Ago.

That gives enough time for the life forms to diverge into distinct life forms while still having similar biochemistries.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

OK, since a lot of people replied pretty quickly, I'm thinking that the vote can be closed tomorrow or Tuesday.

More than one reason, really:

No.

Yes.

Maybe. I suspect that some players and GMs will want to, if this gets played.

Yes.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

OK, voting is closed, and we have a new question:

Most Recent 'Preserver' Activity

Now that we know when the first wave of Preserver activity relating to Earth took place, we can ask when the last (so far) example happened. Voting for the first option means that you want there to have been only one wave of settlement. If a particular date is associated in some way with a civilization encountered in Star Trek (even if there's an in-story explanation that doesn't require it), I've linked the episode title.

Please include the number when you vote. If you have to vote for more than one option, please make it clear which option you like best; if you don't, I'm likely to decide that the first option you list has priority.

1. Circa 3 million years ago (so, only one wave of settlement).

2. Circa 500,000 years ago.

3. Circa 70,000 years ago.

4. Circa 10,000 years ago.

5. Circa 5,000 years ago (roughly 3000 BCE).

6. Circa the destruction of Thera/Atlantis (between 1642 BCE and 1540 BCE).

7. Circa 117 CE (Bread and Circuses).

8. Circa 800 (the time of Charlemagne).

9. Circa 1492 (focused on the Americas; The Paradise Syndrome).

10. Circa 1816 (the Year Without a Summer).

11. Circa the 1920s (oddly focused on organized crime; A Piece of the Action).

12. Circa 1945 (the atomic bomb worried someone out there; Patterns of Force).

13. Circa the Cold War (The Omega Glory, Miri).

14. Circa the Genetics Wars of the 2050s.


EDIT: 13 (Cold War) wins by one vote.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

14) Last Thursday, to be precise.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

13) Circa the Cold War

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Seconding this option

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

OK, I will most likely be closing the vote tomorrow, so if you haven't voted and want to, I suggest doing it sooner, rather than later.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

One vote is closed, and a new one is opened:

How many distinct 'waves of settlement' have the Preservers set down?

Basically, the Preservers most likely took people and other lifeforms in waves or phases, with significant time gaps in-between. Post the number of such waves that you prefer, or a range, like '5 to 20' or 'more than a dozen, but less than a hundred.' If there isn't a clear consensus, I'll do a second vote, based on the most popular suggestions, if possible. If everyone wants wildly different numbers or ranges, I'll figure something else out.

EDIT: The consensus seems to be that there are no distinct 'waves,' just life being moved at various points.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Either one wave, or too many to really count.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

Waves? What do you mean waves? They started, it picked up for a while, then it slowed and eventually stopped.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

OK, I'm thinking that I'll be closing this vote tomorrow, unless I get sick again (or otherwise distracted). So far, it looks like there are no distinct 'waves,' just life being moved at various points.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

How many different groups of Preservers have there been?

Were the Preservers members of a single species, or part of an alliance, or is 'Preserver' perhaps a name that applies to several groups, possibly with different motivations and levels of technology? Were some of the later Preservers descended from beings taken from Earth in earlier times? With the very long time span involved (3 million years!), the Preservers being a single group seems a bit less plausible.

Please include the number when you vote.

1. A single species and group, the whole way through.

2. The same alliance, with multiple species involved, but without any uplifted races.

3. The same alliance, with multiple species involved, including uplifted races.

4. A few different groups over time, less than ten.

5. Between ten and a hundred different groups, possibly overlapping.

6. Between a hundred and a thousand different groups, possibly overlapping.

7. More than a thousand different groups, possibly overlapping.


EDIT: OK, the consensus is 'a single, multi-species alliance of time travelers, that does not include uplifted races.'

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

^ My vote. Keep the Preservers both Ancient and No Longer On the TL Scale.

Re: [Psionics] [Space] Psi Trek - Worldbuilding
 

2) Cause they're time travellers.