Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

This mostly deals with the original ‘issue’ per the old rules system. The new xp system ‘fixes’ this ‘problem’ for the most part.

I have seen a lot of people mention and complain about the ‘Conan the Wizard’ effect of high strength wizards. And I’ve wondered…why is this such an issue? Most people seem to complain something around the point that the wizard should be frail and weak compared to fighters and I had to stop and ask myself, why do they believe that?

It seems to me that most old myths and early fantasy story doesn’t present wizards as particularly frail. Gandalf fights in many melee battles (yes, I know he’s an angel, but that wasn’t how he was presented in the Hobbit). Merlin didn’t fight alongside knights, but as I remember the earlier myths he was only presented as frail due to age, not magic use (and certainly his foes were not old and frail). Norse Rune Casters are mostly Viking warriors as well (not to mention Berserkers). Shaman in native cultures also tend to be hunters as well, not frail fainting flowers. While the wizards in Conan stories were weaker than Conan, who wasn’t? Also of course their weakness served a philosophical agenda. Elric was weak from a birth defect, and needed either drugs or Stormbringer for the strength to cast his spells (when he bothered). So why this seemingly ubiquitous desire for frail magicians?

The only thing I can come up with is D&D and its expectations. Magic-Users are weak, just look at that d4 HP! Though even this ignores that Wizards in D&D could still have an 18 Str or Con (though admittedly depending on the edition it might not benefit a wizard as much as a fighter-which maps to TFT because without a lot of talent points for a weapon skill).

I kind of like that TFT wizards are physically capable instead of being a D&D trope. I like that they are robust and tough. It creates a different setting with different expectations and I think that’s cool.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

I don't think it is an issue, except when a wizard conceived of as weak or average becomes super strong over the course of adventures, since that kind of advancement undermines the character concept. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with the bruiser wizard. TFT's supporting building the character you want is part of what wooed me away from D&D all those decades ago.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

I don't think it usually is an issue.

It seems like some people mainly struggle with their pre-conceived ideas about wizards.

The Legacy edition rules mitigate it a lot with the new XP table costs and the staff mana stat.

For me, I do however have a bit of a desire to be able to have some wizards who develop their personal (not item-based) ability to cast more spells, without also having great muscular ST, or being able to survive massive injury too. Of course it can be easily house-ruled in various ways if I want that.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

I think just by TFT moving away from a class based system we do away with Conan the Wizard problems. I think with the D&D mindset it was the trade offs that the classes presented. I never played the original TFT but I’m running the new edition and I think the issue has been fixed because it hasn’t come up in our game but maybe it will...

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

With Classic TFT, it only really started to come up later in play. You might see a wizard that had more strength than the warriors in the party so they could power more spells. At which point, they spend the 2 IQ to get the Crossbow skill for when they don't want to throw missile spells.

With the increased cost for stats and the ManaStaff mechanic, I don't see it as a problem any more (I never really had a problem with it, but I understand why others might) - the game still allows you to build a high-strength wizard, but doesn't require it of more advanced wizards.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

See that's the part that confuses me...the idea that players have a concept that they don't expect to evolve over the course of play. I mean, sure, maybe your wizard started out weak or average, but they also probably started out with less IQ as well. As you get more powerful, your abilities improve, including your physical ability to cast more potent spells. Your weakling works out and gets strong so they can better channel magic (or they don't spend attribute points on ST in which case they are fast and smart but with little magical stamina which is a reasonable build I guess).

But the complaint that your concept changed over the course of play... I mean, all characters change. A 1st level X isn't still the same person by level 10 in any system.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

I'm talking about the fundamental nature of a character changing. Elric never got stronger in the stories, although he certainly changed, and, regardless of how much Frodo adventured, he was never going to be as strong as Boromir. For a real-world example, regardless of how much dedicate myself to getting stronger, my frame will never allow me to be as strong any NFL player; I'm just too small. So, I'm not talking about a character who starts the game an 18-year-old ST 9 wizard advancing to ST 10 or 11 by the time they are 2 years older with some adventures undert their belt. Rather, I'm talking about their advancing up to levels that should be far beyond the reach of someone like them.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

True about some characters from fiction, but I would say that Frodo's ST did improve (because it also represents Health and Fatigue). Conan didn't really improve either, but then character's from pulp, while being the inspiration for D&D and rpgs in general, aren't characters that really change much in the way of narrative arcs.

I don't know, I expect characters to change and improve when I play them. Zero to Hero and all that.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

I view this as a kind of stand in for a broader issue with the older experience and advancement rules, which encouraged and permitted all characters to drift toward a common design having ST~DX~IQ~20. Whether you started as Conan or started as a wizard, this is where you would end up.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

Yeah, saminess is an issue. But then, I can see builds not working that way. A fighter with 30 Str (the old human max) and a 12 Dex and 9 Int seems perfectly viable for high level play.

As does the Str 14 Dex 22 IQ 14 heavy armor tank (-7 Dx from plate and tower shield, still hits on a 15 or less).

But I get it, none of these characters have 60 points of stats either.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

I'd prefer a game with your ST 30 fighter, DX 12 and agree it would be a blast to play, but in practice it isn't what people did with their resources under the old rules.

I feel like the new edition actually provides you ways to create very powerful characters who are unique and fun, by adapting the Supers rules (in the companion) to general play.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

This was always the issue -- by the time you'd played for a couple of years, all the characters were carbon copies. Everyone had the same powers, skills, spells and attributes, and everyone pretty much always succeeded at everything. It wasn't so much the specifics of Conan the Wizard or Gandalf the Barbarian, it was the bland sameness of everything at higher levels. In effect, the game self-destructed at higher levels. It's why a lot of people left the game when Metagaming went out of business -- not only was there a lack of support, but there was also a recognition that the game was best played at low levels, and people tended to move on when they wanted to explore higher levels of play. Those of us who stuck with it for the next 35 years all pretty much solved that problem with one or more of the new rules in Legacy Edition -- in fact, talking about HOW to solve those problems is what lead to the community in the first place, I think...

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

He also never got better at spellcasting. Elric's a good example of why game systems shouldn't force a D&D style zero-to-hero development path on the players. Elric starts out being pretty "high level" -- few can match his knowledge of magic and inherited pacts from his background -- with about the only improvement being acquiring Stormbringer, and that was mostly about improving his physical stats, not his mental ones.

One of the things I originally liked about GURPS is that the rules encouraged you to just build a hero and go play, without being required to kill lots of giant rats outside the city gates to level up for a while.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

Of course Elric trained as a sorcerer for 1000 years and he is an incarnation of the most powerful being in the Multiverse, the Eternal Champion. It's hard to improve on that... 😀

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

Exactly! I mean, how many more xp do you want once you start play when that's your backstory?

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

Where did you get the idea that Elric was 1000+ years old at the opening of the stories about him? I've read these a dozen times and never noticed that.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

I would be very interested in this idea. How would you go about doing that? Do you have some rules for characters buying those abilities at high levels? What does a high level character who has some look like?

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

Yeah, pulp characters, like the super-heroes they gave birth do, didn't tend to change a lot. I imagine it made it easier for the writer to sell short stories with the same characters...brand recognition.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

Ditto. I too have never read anything that indicated that. The Melnibonean empire only reigned for 10,000 years, and I think there were like 400+ emperors.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

My 'base' rules for this are in the Companion volume that was published with the LE boxed set in the spring. I then adapt them in two ways:

1) dial the starting superhero point pool down to whatever power level I'm trying to create. The default is 32, but that gets you someone with powers like a comic book character. Something in the range 10-20 will get you something more like Beowulf

2) I expand the list of spell-like powers to include almost any spell, following the pattern of point costs established in the Companion rules

I've created several characters this way; the only one who has show up and done things in play is an NPC encountered by the players in my current campaign; she appears to be a simple traveller but has strange gaps in her memory and people who confront her 'off screen' end up dead with bizarre injuries. Her back story is that she is a sort of demi-god but doesn't know her own past or understand her powers because she blacks out when she manifests her exceptional strength and resistance to injury.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

That's cool!

Sorry, what I was asking was more for how do PCs get these abilities, what do they pay for them, etc.

Re: Conan the Wizard...is it a problem?
 

I don't think he's 1000+ years old. He trained for over 1000 years in dream quests. Check out the later Elric books, like "The Skrayling Tree: The Albino in America". More info here. I'm not sure how much time those dream quests took in Melnobone.