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Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

ITL p41: "Any character can fight with two weapons, if one is .. a spike shield"

ITL p41: you can "make an attack with one weapon, and parry with the other, which acts as a shield to stop 2 points of damage..."

So if I equip myself with a spike shield, I can use 2 weapons talent to turn it into a 2 point shield? Or is that a 3 point shield? Since I assume it still protects for 1 point if I 'use' it for a second attack, so why would I lose that point if I parry? And why on earth is the spike shield the only shield I can use like this?

Subsidiary point: Can any character simply use a left handed dagger as a '2 point shield' in every fight without needing shield skill or to lose a point of AdjDX?

I feel I must have missed something (again)

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

I'm assuming you're talking about characters with 2 arms. If that's the case, the weapon is held in one hand and the spike shield in the other. There is no free arm for another weapon. If you have more than 2 arms then that's a different story...

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

The language concerning off handed weapons, spike shields and the main-gauche (as well as various paired weapons like net and trident) are quite confusing, particularly if you mix and match them. But a good common sense guide applies here: if a rules interpretation seems too good to be true then it is not a good interpretation.

My ruling in this case is that the spike shield is just a small shield that an be used to attack as an off handed weapon, making it closely similar to the maine-gauche (the differences being that the maine gauche does 1 point more damage but provides no protection against missiles, whereas a spike shield does protect vs. missiles). I only give the 2 point protection for using an off handed weapon as a shield if you actually know Two Weapons talent and if that weapon is not already a shield.

Two ambiguities of this sort that do concern me a bit are:

- It seems that if you might with a main-gauche or spike shield in the off hand that you retain their protective value on the same turn you use them to attack

- And, when you use one of these two things to deliver an off handed attack, you do not incur a penalty to attack with your main weapon.

Thus, the extra attack is always to your benefit and should be attempted every turn. These are the rulings I follow, but I'm not confident about them because the rules suggest them but don't clearly state them.

Also note that there are several paired weapons that can be used without Two Weapons talent but follow their own rules.

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

Quote:

Originally Posted by larsdangly (Post 2265249)

a good common sense guide applies here: if a rules interpretation seems too good to be true then it is not a good interpretation.

Totally agree! I'm just not quite sure what a balanced resolution of this would be.

Maybe the idea that 'any character can fight with two weapons if one is a dagger...' has to go - as you have suggested. I mean, you have to have a talent just to have a shield dangling around in your off hand for a start. Something along the lines of 'any character can fight with two weapons as long as one is a dagger, main gauche or spike shield, but with -2 DX' would be better? Although it still gives free access to the massively helpful double-parry option... :/

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

There is a rational set of trade offs that underlies a lot of the rules for stats, equipment and attacks:

1 ST = 1 DX = 1 point of damage = 1 point of protection ~ 1 special quality (e.g., an entangling attack) ~ 1-2 talent points

I think one should always try to interpret the rules in such a way that you stay close to those proportions. Off handed weapons are a little hard to parse this way. E.g., the 'exchange' between a main-gauche and a small shield is that you get a -4 DX 1d-1 damage attack in exchange for being able to use your protection vs. missiles. If you have an adj.DX of 11 to start with, that extra attack has an expected value (avg. damage times avg. chance of success) of 0.4 points of damage per turn, which is traded off against 1 point of protection 'sometimes'. That's close enough to a fair trade that I'd call it even-steven.

Another principle to keep in mind is that it is rare and always clearly specified when you get to stack benefits from multiple sources (e.g., multiple talents or spells). So, if you are thinking of layering a benefit of an off handed weapon on top of a special quality of a unique piece of equipment, that's probably not the intent of the rules.

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

Interesting viewpoint - thank you. That makes sense and is really useful generally!

I've also spotted that the Main Gauche is specifically mentioned as a 1 point parry from 'non-missile, one-handed weapons only' (ITL p111) making it fairly clear it is a fairly limited 1 point shield, but you can use it without a special skill and it allows a free dagger attack at -4 DX.

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

Some people have played so that Two Weapons talent also allows shields to block more hits.

I think it's clear that the intention of the rules is not to have Two Weapons talent be something that makes shields stop 2 more hits. For example:

* It doesn't fit the description.
* The rules would say so.
* There would be an example.
* It's a super-good ability that all shield users would want.
* It's a super-good ability that's kind of better than using Two Weapons with two weapons.
* It's better than the existing new Shield Expertise talent, which clearly DOES add to the damage stopped by shields, and is the talent intended to be used for that.
* It seems silly to me that all the super-duper good shield users would also be trained in the ability to fight with two weapons as a side effect, but most of them would never use that ability.

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

Skarg - can I ask how you would interpret/run these two weapons situations:

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and spike shield, sword and shield talents but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the spike shield?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and dagger, sword talent but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the dagger?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?
(e) Is a dagger here exactly the same as a main gauche, or slightly different (since Main Gauche is 'listed' as a one point shield)?

Much appreciated if you have time to look at this. TY.

I also seem to remember we used to run a Parry option as an alternative to Defend, where you could choose to stop an extra 2 points of damage instead of forcing them to roll an extra die. I cannot find this in the RAW so I guess this was based on the assumption from Two Weapons Talent that parrying stops 2 hits.

Aside: I notice the DX requirement for this talent has dropped from 13 to 11... Actually this area has changed slightly from the original rules (Left Hand Weapons), which might explain why I am a bit confused

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

Some quick answers. All based on RAW from legacy edition materials, after a search for anything on spike shield, main-gauche and left handed weapons; my answers in ALL CAPS

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikMod (Post 2265427)

Skarg - can I ask how you would interpret/run these two weapons situations:

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and spike shield, sword and shield talents but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack? NO SECOND ATTACK; THE SPIKE SHIELD DOES DAMAGE ONLY ON A SUCCESSFUL SHIELD RUSH, WHICH CANNOT BE ACCOMPANIED BY ANOTHER ATTACK
(b) Any DX- on their first attack? EITHER SHIELD RUSH OR DO SWORD ATTACK, EITHER AT DX 12
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the spike shield? YOU DO NOT 'PARRY' WITH YOUR SHIELD; IF YOU HAVE IT IT ALWAYS REDUCES DAMAGE FROM ATTACKS THROUGH YOUR FRONT HEX SIDE
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons? THIS ISN'T A THING IF YOU LACK TWO WEAPONS TALENT. YOU CAN EITHER DEFEND (4D TO HIT YOU AND -1 DAMAGE FROM YOUR SPIKE SHIELD) OR FIGHT NORMALLY (3D TO HIT YOU AND -1 DAMAGE FROM SPIKE SHIELD).

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and dagger, sword talent but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack? -4 IF IT IS A PROPER MAIN-GAUCHE; -6 IF ANY OTHER WEAPON, IN PRINCIPLE INCLUDING A NORMAL DAGGER
(b) Any DX- on their first attack? NONE IF IT IS A PROPER MAIN-GAUCHE; -6 IF ANY OTHER WEAPON, IN PRINCIPLE INCLUDING A NORMAL DAGGER
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the dagger? THERE IS NO 'IF YOU PARRY'; IF IT IS A PROPER MAIN-GAUCHE, YOU GET -1 PROTECTION VS. 1 HANDED MELEE WEAPONS ATTACKING THROUGH YOUR FRONT HEX SIDES (ONLY); IF IT IS A NORMAL DAGGER YOU GET NOTHING. IF YOU WANT TO FIGHT DEFENSIVELY, PICK DEFEND OPTION (4D TO HIT YOU; NO PROTECTION)
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons? NOT AN OPTION; YOU CAN DEFEND (4D TO HIT YOU, NO PROTECTION)
(e) Is a dagger here exactly the same as a main gauche, or slightly different (since Main Gauche is 'listed' as a one point shield)? THERE ARE PLACES IN THE TEXT WHERE A MAIN-GAUCHE IS DESCRIBED PARENTHETICALLY AS A LEFT HANDED DAGGER, PRESUMABLY TO HELP PEOPLE WHO DON'T RECOGNIZE THE WORD. BUT THEY ARE FUNCTIONALLY DIFFERENT THINGS IN THE RULES: DIFFERENT WEIGHT AND COST, AND QUITE DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS IN COMBAT, OFFENSIVELY AND DEFENSIVELY. THE BOTTOM LINE IS YOU NEED TO SPECIFY YOU ARE USING A MAIN-GAUCHE IF YOU WANT TO FIGHT WITH AN OFF HANDED DAGGER, OTHERWISE YOU WON'T GET MUCH OUT OF IT.

Much appreciated if you have time to look at this. TY.

I also seem to remember we used to run a Parry option as an alternative to Defend, where you could choose to stop an extra 2 points of damage instead of forcing them to roll an extra die. I cannot find this in the RAW so I guess this was based on the assumption from Two Weapons Talent that parrying stops 2 hits. THIS ISN'T A THING. I'VE USED HOUSE RULES LIKE THIS BEFORE, BUT IT IS NOT PART OF RAW, EITHER NOW OR IN THE ORIGINAL EDITIONS

Aside: I notice the DX requirement for this talent has dropped from 13 to 11... Actually this area has changed slightly from the original rules (Left Hand Weapons), which might explain why I am a bit confused

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

I think the rules are spread between three (or more?) places and are not entirely consistent with each other.

The Two Weapons talent (on ITL 41) is the most liberal in suggesting anyone can fight with two weapons if they have not only a main gauche but also they could use an ordinary dagger in the left hand, or a spike shield. However it is also more restrictive than Left-Hand Weapons on ITL 111 in saying that a figure who wants to fight with two full weapons "must have this talent".

ITL 107 is the most restrictive, saying humanoid figures without Two Weapons can only make one attack. But I think it can be considered overruled by more specific rules.

The Left-Hand Weapons rule on ITL 111 I take to be more specific and therefore expands on/overrules ITL 107, but it only mentions main gauche and the Two Weapons talent, and adds that anyone can try to fight as in the Two Weapons talent but at -6 on each attack.

If I were only using the RAW Legacy Edition rules, I would say that the Two Weapons description is the most specific and detailed and overrides all the other rules except the part of ITL 111 which specifically elaborates on Two Weapons saying you actually can try to use two weapons but at -6 on each.

So to Legacy-RAW answer your questions:

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and spike shield, sword and shield talents but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the spike shield?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?

Answers:
(a)(b) They don't get a second attack. SJ left that in Legacy Edition by mistake.
(c)(d) 1 damage stopped as usual for a Spike Shield. They can Defend with it if they want for enemy 4/DX to hit.

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and dagger, sword talent but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the dagger?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?
(e) Is a dagger here exactly the same as a main gauche, or slightly different (since Main Gauche is 'listed' as a one point shield)?

(a)(b) GM discretion. I would either say there is no 2nd attack, or they can attack as with a main-gauche attack (-0 for the first attack, -4 with the second attack).
(c)(d) None. Only an actual main-gauche or Two Weapons talent stops damage.
(e) No, since the 1980 Advanced rules, a main gauche has always cost twice as much and weighed more than a dagger.

However, what I would tend to do is also consult the original 1980 Advanced rules to get more info on what Steve changed in the Legacy Edition, because doing so gives me options and also shows what the Two Weapons bit about Spike Shields is talking about.

That is, if you look at the original ITL or Advanced Melee weapon tables, you will find that the notes on Spike Shield read "If used as 2nd weapon, does 1 - 2 damage. DX -4." Aha! Now, since that note changed in Legacy Edition to "If used in shield rush, does 1d-2 damage." it seems to me that Steve probably was trying to edit out the ability to get a second attack from a spike shield (probably for simplicity), but missed the reference inside the Two Weapons talent description.

Also looking at Advanced Melee for how main gauche and a dagger in the left hand work, the situation is also quite different, and also Steve was trying to simplify it for Legacy Edition. In Advanced Melee, a figure attacking with a sword and a main gauche has -4 DX on both attacks.

And in Advanced Melee, you can use two daggers in HTH, at -4 each.

However I don't see an elaboration on using a weapon and ordinary dagger in Advanced Melee - Two Weapons has the same language saying it's possible, but not what the mechanics are. The original weapon table does mention a section titled Combat with Daggers, but I think that's the section in AM with the HTH damage table, which I infer got renamed to "Combat with Bare Hands, Daggers, Cestus, or Club", which only talks about HTH damage.

As for your specific questions in the light of Advanced Melee, I would tend to allow both spike shields and normal daggers to do a second attack (normal daggers just don't stop any damage), but I would choose to play it as in Advanced Melee, where doing so puts both attacks at -4 DX.

How I would actually play would be to re-hash my favorite of the original and new rules, and/or invent how I want to play.

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

Responses in ALL CAPS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg (Post 2265498)

I think the rules are spread between three (or more?) places and are not entirely consistent with each other.DEFINITELY CONFUSING BUT ONLY INCONSISTENT ON A COUPLE OF POINTS

The Two Weapons talent (on ITL 41) is the most liberal in suggesting anyone can fight with two weapons if they have not only a main gauche but also they could use an ordinary dagger in the left hand, or a spike shield. However it is also more restrictive than Left-Hand Weapons on ITL 111 in saying that a figure who wants to fight with two full weapons "must have this talent". THE ONLY SPECIFIC RULE EXPLAINING HOW A SPIKE SHIELD CAN BE USED TO DELIVER DAMAGE GIVES IT AS AN ADD-ON TO A SHIELD RUSH ATTACK, WHICH CLEARLY DOESN'T PERMIT OTHER ACCOMPANYING ATTACKS. SO, THIS SHOULD NOT BE THOUGHT OF AS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR AN OFF HANDED SECOND ATTACK. MAIN-GAUCHE RULES ARE CLEAR. LEFT HANDED DAGGER IS TOTALLY UNCLEAR; IN SOME PLACES GIVEN AS A SYNONYMOUS DESCRIPTION OF MAIN-GAUCHE, IN OTHERS (LIKE HERE) SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM MAIN-GAUCHE. THE LEFT HANDED RULES CLEARLY STATE THAT YOU CAN FIGHT WITH TWO THINGS AT -6 FOR EACH WITHOUT TW TALENT. MY TAKE AWAY IS THAT THE PREAMBLE PARAGRAPH OF THE TW TALENT (THE PART BEFORE THE BULLET POINT RULES) IS A LOT OF NONSENSE THAT SHOULD BE IGNORED. IT IS INCONSISTENT WITH CLEARLY STATED RULES ELSEWHERE.

ITL 107 is the most restrictive, saying humanoid figures without Two Weapons can only make one attack. But I think it can be considered overruled by more specific rules. AGREED; THERE ARE SO MANY SPECIFIC INSTANCES WHERE TWO ATTACKS CAN BE DELIVERED, INCLUDING MAIN-GAUCHE, THE -6/-6 GENERAL OPTION, AND SEVERAL UNUSUAL WEAPONS. PLUS BOWS AT HIGH DX, OF COURSE.

The Left-Hand Weapons rule on ITL 111 I take to be more specific and therefore expands on/overrules ITL 107, but it only mentions main gauche and the Two Weapons talent, and adds that anyone can try to fight as in the Two Weapons talent but at -6 on each attack. AGREED, AND I ALSO TAKE THIS AS THE 'BASE' STATEMENT OF THE RULES

If I were only using the RAW Legacy Edition rules, I would say that the Two Weapons description is the most specific and detailed and overrides all the other rules except the part of ITL 111 which specifically elaborates on Two Weapons saying you actually can try to use two weapons but at -6 on each. I SUPPOSE, BUT THE TW TALENT INTRO PARAGRAPH CALLS OUT A LEFT HANDED DAGGER AS SOMETHING SPECIAL, BUT IT ISN'T DESCRIBED ANYWHERE ELSE (OTHER THAN WHEN USED AS A SYNONYM FOR A MAIN-GAUCHE), AND THE RESTRICTION HERE IS INCONSISTENT WITH ITL 111.

So to Legacy-RAW answer your questions:

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and spike shield, sword and shield talents but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the spike shield?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?

Answers:
(a)(b) They don't get a second attack. SJ left that in Legacy Edition by mistake.
(c)(d) 1 damage stopped as usual for a Spike Shield. They can Defend with it if they want for enemy 4/DX to hit.

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and dagger, sword talent but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the dagger?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?
(e) Is a dagger here exactly the same as a main gauche, or slightly different (since Main Gauche is 'listed' as a one point shield)?

(a)(b) GM discretion. I would either say there is no 2nd attack, or they can attack as with a main-gauche attack (-0 for the first attack, -4 with the second attack).
(c)(d) None. Only an actual main-gauche or Two Weapons talent stops damage.
(e) No, since the 1980 Advanced rules, a main gauche has always cost twice as much and weighed more than a dagger.

However, what I would tend to do is also consult the original 1980 Advanced rules to get more info on what Steve changed in the Legacy Edition, because doing so gives me options and also shows what the Two Weapons bit about Spike Shields is talking about.

That is, if you look at the original ITL or Advanced Melee weapon tables, you will find that the notes on Spike Shield read "If used as 2nd weapon, does 1 - 2 damage. DX -4." Aha! Now, since that note changed in Legacy Edition to "If used in shield rush, does 1d-2 damage." it seems to me that Steve probably was trying to edit out the ability to get a second attack from a spike shield (probably for simplicity), but missed the reference inside the Two Weapons talent description.
THAT'S A REASONABLE READING. IN THE ORIGINAL EDITION, THE SPIKE SHIELD WAS SORT OF LIKE A LOWER DAMAGE MAIN-GAUCHE THAT WORKS MORE GENERALLY AS A SHIELD. IN THE LEGACY EDITION, IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY; IT IS JUST A SHIELD THAT DOES DAMAGE ON A SHIELD RUSH

Also looking at Advanced Melee for how main gauche and a dagger in the left hand work, the situation is also quite different, and also Steve was trying to simplify it for Legacy Edition. In Advanced Melee, a figure attacking with a sword and a main gauche has -4 DX on both attacks.
AGREED; IT IS ONE OF THE MORE FRUSTRATING BITS OF RULES AMBIGUITY THAT THE NEW EDITION SAYS NOTHING CONCRETE ABOUT A DX PENALTY FOR THE PRIMARY ATTACK WHEN YOU MAKE THIS SECONDARY ATTACK, WITH THE SIMPLEST READING BEING THAT THERE ISN'T ONE. BUT THE OLD EDITION INCLUDED ONE. WE ARE NOT GETTING RESPONSES FROM SJG ABOUT THESE DETAILS, SO I THINK PEOPLE HAVE TO MAKE THEIR OWN RULINGS.

And in Advanced Melee, you can use two daggers in HTH, at -4 each.
THAT'S RIGHT; I'M NOT SURE WHY THAT OPTION WAS REMOVED, BUT IT DOESN'T BUG ME. IN GENERAL, TWO WEAPON FIGHTING IS TOO LIBERALLY SPRINKLED THROUGH ROLEPLAYING GAMES - IT IS SOMETHING THAT OCCURS IN RELEVANT HISTORICAL MARTIAL ARTS, BUT IS THE EXCEPTION RATHER THAN THE RULE.

However I don't see an elaboration on using a weapon and ordinary dagger in Advanced Melee - Two Weapons has the same language saying it's possible, but not what the mechanics are. The original weapon table does mention a section titled Combat with Daggers, but I think that's the section in AM with the HTH damage table, which I infer got renamed to "Combat with Bare Hands, Daggers, Cestus, or Club", which only talks about HTH damage.

As for your specific questions in the light of Advanced Melee, I would tend to allow both spike shields and normal daggers to do a second attack (normal daggers just don't stop any damage), but I would choose to play it as in Advanced Melee, where doing so puts both attacks at -4 DX.

THAT'S ALL REASONABLE, BUT I WOULD SAY DEPARTS ENOUGH FROM SPECIFIC RULES IN LEGACY EDITION THAT IT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED 'HOUSE RULES' RATHER THAN 'STANDARD RULES RULINGS'

How I would actually play would be to re-hash my favorite of the original and new rules, and/or invent how I want to play.

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

Quote:

Originally Posted by larsdangly (Post 2265515)

IN GENERAL, TWO WEAPON FIGHTING IS TOO LIBERALLY SPRINKLED THROUGH ROLEPLAYING GAMES - IT IS SOMETHING THAT OCCURS IN RELEVANT HISTORICAL MARTIAL ARTS, BUT IS THE EXCEPTION RATHER THAN THE RULE.

Yeah, that's my feeling on two weapons use as well. i.e. I think it should be an unusual specialized option that calls for special training and has some drawbacks and not something that's better than (or even, just as good or easy as) conventional ways to use weapons.

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

This is one reason why I tend to follow a relatively strict reading of the RAW, Specifically, these are the only options I recognize for making two melee attacks in a turn:

1) Us a Main-gauche, following the clearly laid out rules
2) Use any two 1-H weapons, but with -6/-6 penalties
3) Learn the Two Weapons (or equivalently Fencing) talent and follow the options in the bulleted part of that talent description (ignoring generalized statements in the paragraph at the top)
4) Learn an Unusual Weapon talent that involves paired weapons (e.g., net and trident), and follow the specific rules for that set.

By this reading, there is nothing special about daggers that aren't also main-gauches, and nothing special about spike shields (other than the damage they do on a shield rush).

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

Okay - so a RAW compatible combat options without TW would be:

Sword and Spike Shield + sword and shield talent

Attack with Sword at normal DX, get 1 point of protection from front attacks and missiles
Shield Rush at normal DX for possible 1-2 damage and a knockdown, still get 1 point of protection from front attacks and missiles

Sword and Main Gauche + only sword talent

Attack with Sword at DX -1, get 1 point of protection from front attacks with 1 handed weapons only and get a second 'dagger' attack of (1-1) against the same target as the sword attack at DX -5 (one DX is lost throughout by using the Main Gauche)

Sword and Dagger + only sword talent

Attack with Sword at normal DX, get no protection at all, get second dagger attack at same target at DX -4 for (1-1)

2 Swords + only sword talent

One attack at normal DX while the other sword dangles around
Two attacks both at DX -6 but can be different targets, no defensive options at all

These all seem like balanced options to me.

Thank you so much guys for all your thoughts and knowledge! You're awesome :)

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

That looks pretty close, but it is not clear whether or not the main-gauche imposes a -1 DX adjustment. The table has a typo, it isn't mentioned in the text, it's different from the original editions, and different from Melee and the printed fighter cards that came with the Legacy Edition. So, basically no one has any idea what we are supposed to do and we're all winging it.

Except, there is no RAW basis for attacking with an off handed dagger at -4 DX (your third option). That is a suggested house rule.

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

Quote:

Originally Posted by larsdangly (Post 2265616)

Except, there is no RAW basis for attacking with an off handed dagger at -4 DX (your third option). That is a suggested house rule.

Except the definition of Two Weapons talent, where it is listed alongside Main Gauche and Spike Shield as one of the 3 things anyone can use in their off hand.

I'm basically just saying it's a lightweight Main Gauche which doesn't stop a hit. As defined in ITL. Which might explain the '1' DX loss for MG on the shields table? I don't feel that's really the same as making a house rule. It's clearly allowed in TW talent...

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikMod (Post 2265943)

But it never says HOW those three things can be used, and the two that are explained elsewhere in the rules (Main-gauche and spike shield) follow different rules. So, I dont think there is any case to be made that RAW explains how a dagger and sword work together for people who lack TW talent. Also, the DX penalty on the MG table is hard to interpret. There is no such penalty in Melee, and none of the fighter cards included in the Legacy Edition get a DX penalty from using a MG. There is no self-consistent answer here, but the weight of evidence suggests no DX penalty, and the tables are a typo.

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikMod (Post 2265943)

I agree that this seems a reasonable interpretation to me even trying to be RAW.

I think it was the intention in original ITL (except in original TFT, all such attacks (main gauche, dagger, and spike shield) without Two Weapons would give a -4 to both the main attack and the second attack), though I think it (and the spike shield mention) is something Steve overlooked removing in his attempt to simplify Legacy Edition. (Personally, I don't feel any desire to simplify TFT, so I'd tend to let people use daggers and spike shields to do a second attack, though I think I like the original -4 DX on the primary attack as well.)

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

I could be happy with several different readings of these rules. The difficulty is that they are a jumble of clear, specific repetitions of the old rules, clear, specific changes from the old rules, vague statements - some consistent with old rules, some consistent with new rules and some consistent with neither - and omissions. It's a bit frustrating, but I think each table will have to make up their own version.

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

Another option is to make 2 weapons restricted to specific weapons. E.g. Broadsword and Shortsword or Broadsword and Small Ax. Etc.

And require 2 weapons to be learned multiple times. This would be a house rule, definitely not RAW. But it might solve 2 weapons being overpowered.

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

I think the best thing is to choose how the RAW work in your game world and then apply them equally. I print out player handouts with specific rulings and tell my players, "This is how it works in my game." If they want to try and rules lawyer they can leave.

One issue I have had is players who take Talents without actually reading what they do, thinking "Well this has the same name as that in another game so it must work the same." I make sure player read the text, and any ruling documents, so they have a clear understanding how a talent works and what it does and does not allow.

I'm the kind of GM who believes that if the rules don't say YOU CANNOT DO THIS THING then you can try, and if I think a given Talent should allow you to do that thing or give a bonus, then I make a ruling for said thing, so long as the RAW doesn't say YOU CAN'T DO THAT THING.

Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

There was mention of "two weapons" talent being overly powerful, and maybe dumbing it down a bit.
Having played two fisted fighters since the 80s, I'd have to say there is a reason you dont see characters with this skill very often.

The attribute requirements to actually have the skill will keep many starting character types from choosing this.
A beginning character stands a much greater chance of surviving his first session, with a sword n board conventional character, lean his points towards ST & DX, grab some leather armor and fight with a defensive approach, and he'll live much longer than any two-fisted fighter.

In fact to make my next newbie lizard man survive long enough, to develop my envisioned twin blade wielder, I am having to do just that, and come out of the gate with a sword and board initially, and hope to live long enough, to develop my two weapon style that I've always played in the past.

A quick chime in regarding rules:
Play with what you will, but keep it balanced. A Two-Weapons trained fighter, "pays" for this option, that basic rule gives him a regular non-modified strike with his primary, like everyone else, then a -4 to hit with his off hand.

When ever I hear of ANY non trained Character attempting this even with two small weapons, I think strong negative modifiers to hit would be in place, like the -6 on both attacks.

When I start to hear anything less, like a -4 to each attack, I think...really, my high DX high IQ Trained fighter is -4 in his off hand, how on earth is Joe blow the same?

I'm opposed to anything less than the -6 in both attacks for unskilled fighting type practitioners.

A Main-Gauche is a specific parrying dagger, purposely designed to block blows, it should never be more than it is, it requires some knowledge of its use, and it is not just a dagger, but it is also far from a shield.