Lasso Question
 

Have I understood the rules right that a lasso is only ST8 and does 1+2 damage with Missile range (3-15 hexes) or can trip people? The "reload" is long but with back up lassos that shouldn't be a problem. What's the catch so to speak?

All the other peculiar weapons seem to have drawbacks, either getting an aim penalty, limited range or more normal damage. Sure there is a GM approval thing (that I will use), but still. I have a very hard time seeing a weakling 15 hexes away being able to lasso you around the neck and immediately do damage to you at the level of a longbow?

I can see how you possibly could do that to a victim that is unaware, like an animal or on a guard from behind. But quickly strangling someone with even just a little armor ready for combat seems very over the top or cowboy romantic to me.

Re: Lasso Question
 

That is a bug. Fixing to be in line with bola, at least for my games.

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#unusual

Re: Lasso Question
 

One mitigating factor is it doesn't get to trip and do the 1d+2 damage; my reading of the text is that it's one or the other.

Re: Lasso Question
 

I see no other way to read the rules.

Some prior discussion here: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=160916

Re: Lasso Question
 

I agree. RAW is badly written. I suggest. 1) Aimed penalties to DX. 2) Range max is 10 not 15 hexes. 3) Thrown range not missile range adjustments to DX.

Lassoing is HARD.

Re: Lasso Question
 

First, the damage strikes me as wrong. Was it supposed to be 1D-2 perhaps?

Second, back up lassos, I think will take more time to ready than most weapons, not as long as the whole 6 turn pull it in, recoil, form a new loop, etc but probably at least a third of that.

Third, it is a thrown weapon, -1 DX per hex distance.

Fourth, the head shot needed for it to do damage is -6 DX.

Fifth, the rules really need to stop using hexes that are supposed to be 4 feet wide as interchangeable with yards (3 feet). A 15 yard range should actually be about 11 hexes.

All that said, even with the lasso rules as written it is not a spectacular weapon. Consider your example weakling st 8. Maybe he has iq 8 as well, so dx 16. Assume he has throwing talent so +2 dx throwing. If he targets someone 15 hexes away, going for the head because he wants to cause injury he has a -21 dx penalty. Yes, 2 of those are countered by his throwing talent but he still is in negative to hit numbers. At his closest range of 3 hexes, again trying to do damage, he has a -9 dx penalty, two of which he cancels with his throwing talent but that still means he hits on a 9. Not good.

Lastly, lasso is one of those weapons that must be used with aimed shots. Aimed shots is an optional rule. If mr weakling's GM isn't choosing to use that option lasso wont be working at all.

On thinking it over, maybe that 1D+2 isn't a mistake. Perhaps the author felt bad for anyone trying to use a lasso and tossed them a crumb.

Oops, missed the part in the lasso description that contradicts its table description as a thrown weapon. Personally, if I had to decide between the two contradictory rules I would go with the table description in any game I GMed.

Re: Lasso Question
 

Good spot -- RAW are confusing here.

p120. "Bola and Lasso. Attacks are of necessity “aimed.” See the description of those weapons."

OK, let's do. The description of lasso p113 describes what happens if you go for neck, arm, or body. But no reference is made there to a DX penalty. (Although under a Bola, a -4 DX penalty for head shots IS noted.)

The -6 DX penalty for the head, which you note, is described under Dagger, Sha-Ken, Whip (p 120); and a different result also with -6 DX penalty for head under Other Weapons (ie all weapons except lasso, bola, dagger, sha-ken, and whip, p 121).

Is it correct that Lasso is therefore the only weapon in the game with no DX penalty for head (or in this case, neck) attack? It seems to be....

Furthermore, for me, the most outrageous thing about the lasso, by far, is that a body attack knocks the target down, no save possible. Ignoring how a lasso can possibly do this, it is extremely unbalanced game-wise (consider a team with one charging pole attacker for each lassoing cowboy). And, even if we were to go against RAW and try to use the same DX penalties for lasso as for aimed shots with Other Weapons, all normal attacks are to the body anyway, no DX penalty.

But while I disagree that RAW lasso is a weak weapon, to come back to your point, the best way to do in the lasso is to disallow aimed shots. Then lassos (and bolas) vanish from the list of allowed weapons.

Re: Lasso Question
 

Yes, i think that is the best solution. In general i see the optional rules as a needless complication in the game.

Re: Lasso Question
 

Simply applying aimed shot and thrown weapon modifiers would bring the lasso down to earth pretty fast. Having watched professional rodeo riders miss a cow at 10' range, I feel like both house rules would be totally rational.

On the other hand, there really is no harm in just using it RAW. I've had a lasso using PC, and they are not really game changers. It is just a goofy extra bit of color in the game.

Re: Lasso Question
 

Depends on how clever/tactical/focused your players are, and whether the GM comes up with rulings to limit it. As written, several of the entangling weapons are very powerful and lack the limits that kept them from being known in reality as the things that can take anyone out of action with no ways to avoid them. Lasso is perhaps the most powerful of them as written.

(Though this isn't the House Rules subforum, where we've discussed these weapons at length once or twice, my own main solution (in addition to things like already mentioned) is to add a saving throw to avoid entanglement, with advantages for facing the entangler and having weapons in hand.)

Re: Lasso Question
 

I think of the lasso as one of a bunch of options available to combatants that are exceptionally effective in just the right white-room situation, but in practice they don't end up seeming that awesome because the characters you create to take advantage of them are vulnerable in other ways. E.g., arquebussers and grenadiers, or wizards casting Hammertouch, or Sha-ken experts. You could probably think up a dozen or so things like this. I haven't experienced any of them taking over player's approaches to combat.

Re: Lasso Question
 

Point taken, although when you have a team of fighters, a special ability (like automatic knock down) can be hard to counter.

And, we did have a genuine problem with sha-ken back in the day. The Murderous Ninja Sniper Hobbit went from a sensational and exciting badass to something entirely predictable and kind of annoying. Every encounter became a decision for the GM, about whether to cater for or against the MNSH.

Re: Lasso Question
 

Many good suggestions on how to fix it rules wise or play-wise.

I reread the section on the lasso and it states, the wielder immediately pulls the rope tight and then can proceed... And the saving roll comes the round after. So maybe it is a two-turn process. First, you need to hit and tighten it, then wait until next turn, they get their first save if they are faster than you, and then you can do damage to the neck if you did an aimed throw (so basically you need to continue spending actions to do auto damage and armor protects, even a shield). Or if you didn't aim and hit the "body" you can trip them or force them to stay on the ground if they are already down. Or if you aimed for an arm the person drops stuff.

That would almost be playable I think. It would also give the opponent the possibility of rushing the lasso/whip user if they are faster than the lasso user or the lasso user aimed for the neck and you can still move. If they get within the minimum range and engage the lasso user they nullify the lasso/Whip attacks range requirement. Since they haven't had time to "proceed" yet. This means you want your target engaged by others first, or they will rush you while you tug at the rope.

Re: Lasso Question
 

The way I wound up treating lassos, whips, and long poles with hooks on them using my Fantastic Dungeon Grappling concepts is that all of these tools allow a grapple from a distance. Once you spend an attack achieving said thing, then you could do grapply actions after that despite not being in close combat.

It does require GM adjudication or the application of some common sense: yes, you can drag someone around or yank them off their feet. No, you can't push on a rope. Yes, you can strangle someone, but no, you probably can't do a funky joint lock thing. Yes, the foe can also yank on YOU!

Precise mechanics aside, treating the tools as grapple-at-a-distance helps me resolve the "what works, what doesn't" stuff.

Re: Lasso Question
 

Helborn is right on target

Being a Lariat user myself in real life, the lasso in TFT really needs a little tweak.

If nothing else, than do it for game balance, like all Thrown Weapons the lasso is very much a ST weapon as it is a DX weapon, but as listed currently it's min. ST requirement is less than a bola or net.

ST is required to use it well, just like a war boomerang, you really want to snap out that coil hard and fast to hit your target, then snatch it back and hold tension on it (once again the ST game comes into play).

Even light weight weapons that are quick like nunchucks and quarterstaff have a higher ST requirement.

It is important to note that that 1d+2 damage is only strangulation, and only as valuable as the ST of the user, and very strong victim would just grab the lasso and pull it's user off it's feet.
So we're looking at a battle of brawn to maintain strangulation damage.

Also I think it needs to have a Thrown weapons range limit with appropriate penalties, it's not easy to even loop a standing post at 20' let alone a moving target.

Re: Lasso Question
 

Really interesting to read your experience.

Seems to me thrown weapon range mods, and, following from what you say above, the effects of lasso/lariat should depend on a ST-based contest. That would really address its OP nature.

It would definitely be more realistic, but still allow some wacky things in the right circumstances.

Re: Lasso Question
 

I have noticed a couple of things that I think have been left off using a lasso. First, it should be listed as a 2 handed weapon. Second, to ready after a miss it should take 3 or more rounds to use again. Yes the range needs to be fixed as well. In my opinion, it is a ambush weapon only. As well as needing some clear space to wind up for the throw. It is a very visible weapon as well. If the target can see the lasso coming, I would give a bonus to dodge or block it. It would depend on the situation, is he heavily encumbered, has limited room to move, etc...

Just my 2 pennies worth... Pinworthy

Re: Lasso Question
 

Yes, quite.

And when you mention a "bonus to dodge or block it" - yes, AND, the rules currently have zero such chance.

Re: Lasso Question
 

A long time since this thread was active, but I have a human thief cat burglar type with Climbing and Gymnastics who uses the lasso to great effect. Not for combat (she has Running talent and Speed Movement spell), but for crime. It’s a great way to facilitate building entry/exit, rooftop travel, Batman style swings etc.

Re: Lasso Question
 

Yes, all these peculiar weapons have peculiar ie "NOT the same" DX mods and or aimed shot abilities and results. I read this as clear and intentional modeling by the author.
The obvious flavor incorporated in these is meant to be there and does not need to be overly analyzed imho.

....OK that a PC should choose such a one shot last ditch ranged attack to gain a 1+2 hit when they could do that every turn and greater range with a bow.....

The OP scenario of polearm + lasso pairs probably would not be as effective as proposed (though visually I find it rather cool in a cinematic sense). What is the enemy doing during the turn(s)? If it is an equal fight the "nonentangled" 2nd opponent is getting an unopposed strike on either the cowboy or the spear charger (unless he ignors the +4 DX advantage of attacking the fallen roped opponent and now it is just a polearm vs sword scenario).

Yes that is the problem as I see it.
The thing that is ignored more often in these discussions is environment and quest realities (roleplaying). A bola, whip or lasso needs a very open area to be deployed so narrow dungeon corridors or woods etc become nerfs. Shaken are very specific armaments and the ones you lose in the swamp, get carried away lodged in fleeing enemies' shield/body etc. are not available at the local village and even hard to find in major cities. Unique weapons have unique drawbacks outside of combat but that is all up to your GM.

Let the PC be a hero with unique weapons and results if they wish too. Do they excel in some of the deathly encounters because of it? yes maybe, but none of the RAW has produced the situation imho where entire nations would be incentivized to deploy armies or garrisons of lariat warriors, whip warriors, or even bola (bola rules do come close though), so they do not break the world build aspect of the game even though tactically they may excel in some circumstances.

Re: Lasso Question
 

This comment still deals with Lasso, but not the original post.

If you cast Rope Spell (lasting 12 turns) and use it as a Lasso (if you have the talent), does that give you both the spell capability and the talent capability?

That seems to be a very effective concept.

Re: Lasso Question
 

I don't think the rope created by the Rope Spell is actually one you can use as a regular rope, it writhes and tangles about its victim, and I'm not even sure it can be cast on an empty hex.

That said, I wish to all the old gods there was a "Summon Piece of Rope" spell for when everyone in the party has forgotten to bring one. The ST cost could vary by length.

Re: Lasso Question
 

Thank Evil Stevie that Lasso is an Unusual Weapon and hence not covered by Summon Myrmidon!

Re: Lasso Question
 

But it won't stop you from creating an illusion of a fighter with a lasso.

Re: Lasso Question
 

You can't climb that rope that isn't there.

Re: Lasso Question
 

I agree. But the illusion can still choke someone with it.

Oh, and the illusion can climb up the rope. It just cannot leave it as it must be touching the rope at all time since they are both part of a single illusion.

Re: Lasso Question
 

My "Summon Rope" spell: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...08#post2502408

Re: Lasso Question
 

I guess Summoning Myrmidon looking like Indiana Jones with a whip and gun is out of the question now. But I agree and see the point about this. My brain was stuck with regular meaning the weapons and armor can't be fine or enchanted.