Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

I've been noodling around with one of my perennial favorites, converting the Warhammer Fantasy setting, and hit upon the problem of tech levels in that setting.

For those unfamiliar with the setting, there are several major cultures with varying flavors of tech: Humans in the Empire and its satellite cultures are at TL 4, complete with pikes and puffy sleeves. Brettonians and possibly Kisleve are a medieval TL3 and the Nords are a chaos-tainted TL2. But the Dwarfs are at least TL4 and probably TL5 in some areas, while the High and Dark Elves look like TL3 but function somewhere higher thanks to magic and/or super high skill levels. Orcs, goblins, and wood elves are probably TL2, but again, have weird outliers due to magic or orcy weirdness. Skaven are a mess on their own. And then there are the Lizardmen, who are ostensibly TL1 but get a very large number of plusses from being masters of magic.

So instead of just slapping each culture with a TL and then the usual raft of modifiers, I'll adopt Tech Familiarity, much like the existing Cultural Familiarity. (This is part of my on-going effort to reduce the player-facing complexity in my games.) Thus, we'll have:

Imperial Technology: Functions in most ways as TL4, though medicine is riskier. A little bit of magical or divine intervention is expected. High tech stuff includes magically enhanced clockwork and black powder, and there are bleeding edge steam machines. (defaults to Dwarfish Technology at -2 unless magic is involved, in which case it is at -4)

Brettonian Technology: Very constrained to the TL3 high medieval paradigm. If you wouldn't see it in a story with shining, full-plate Knights and muddy, grotty peasants, you don't get it. Not innovative. Medicine and agriculture are surprisingly effective as long as everyone involved is chivalrous enough to please the Lady of the Lake.

Nordic Technology: Barbarians + Chaos taint. Pretty solidly TL2, with an edge in TL3 weapons and armor. Stupid "survival of the fittest" philosophies actually work, thanks to the influence of Chaos.

Skaven Technology: Allegedly TL3, but with clan-based exceptions fueled by Warpstone, mad "science" and magic.

And so on.

Still got to work out some details, of course. Any thoughts on unintended consequences of this house rule?

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

Hum... It seems to me that would add complexity instead of reducing. It makes sense but again, it will add a layer of complexity.
After all, by the rule, you just need to choose the TL level of the setting... I would put it as TL 3 or TL 4.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

I rather like the idea, as long as the tech differences are mostly lateral in nature; and since the only TLs you cite are between 2 and 5, with each “tech profile” having a mix, that seems to be the case.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

One thing that might be worth considering is treating each "tech" difference as a "technique" that can be purchased to offset the tech penalties.

Someone who has been around for when electronics used Vacuum Tubes and then learned to use modern electronics with resisters etc - would have been around to use basic skills, but using older antiquidated techniques or equipment would have been something they gained just by living through it and using it.

I would also suggest that the skill penalty for tech level difference can never be bought off entirely, but that it rest at -2 as the best hope. Why? If you don't use something day in and day out, you sort of lose familiarity with it. A -2 penalty for unfamiliarity should cover it nicely.

Just a thought.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

This function is already covered by the divergent technology rules. There might be something needed for when cultures have the same TL, but have so little contact they implement it differently, like how the Romulans in Star Trek don't use wrap cores but rather Artificial quantum singularitys.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

You seemed to have ignored four built-in at the start mechanics that address the issues you are concerned with:

Borderline technology: TLOld-TLNew. Example: TL5-6. For societies in transition from one tech level to another.

Split technologies: TLPrimary (fields, TLSecondary). Example: TL8 (Communications TL7, Medical TL9). For societies more or less advanced in some fields.

Borrowed (familiar) technologies: TLKnown/Familiar. Example: TL1/2 (Bronze Age society familiar with Iron Age technology). For societies familiar with other level of technologies but not able (or willing) to replicate them.

Divergent Technology: TL(Historical+Divergent). Example: TL(5+1) is a TL6, with historical Earth-like TL5, but somewhat different TL6 (same effects, different form). For alternate worlds which "look" different. Characters not used to truely divergent technology suffer a -2 penalty.

GURPS Fantasy introduced the concept of Equivalent TL which is the TL appears to be due to Magic or Superscience. It may or may not actually be that TL. "Look at a number of commonly used spells, assign them to approximate TL equivalents, and see if these cluster around one or two TLs as usually defined; if so, use a rough equivalent TL in that range. If that doesn’t work, the TL concept may not fit the setting." It is advised that the GM should avoid assuming the setting will simply be 'just like TLx but with wizards'.

D&D's Spelljammer has interplanetary travel (normally TL9) via magic and the average D&D world is 3-4 with magical improvements that kick its effective TL up a bit. Taking this all together gets you ETL: (3+3)^ to (4+2)^; Space travel (3+6)^ to (4+5)^

More details and examples can be found at the GURPS wiki. Use Tech Level as the starting point as there are links to many of the above in that article.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

Don't forget that the TL level of the setting doesn't have to be uniform across the board. The majority of fantasy settings have Split Technologies and/or Divergent Technologies. Depending on communication and trade Borrowed (familiar) Technologies may abound as well.

If fact, looking at all the options for TL in GURPS 4e I'm not sure just what is being added with this Tech Familiarity idea that some combination of Split, Divergent, and Borrowed TL doesn't cover.

And then there is Equivalent TL where magic and/or superscience where the TL functions as it was much higher then it actually is. D&D's Spelljammer has Spacetravel ETL 9 for example but in many respect its mundane TL is in the 3-4 range.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

Right. But the idea here is to simplify the player's experience. The player doesn't need to mess with “higher tech”, “lower tech”, or “divergent tech”; all he needs to deal with is “same tech” or “different tech”. It's not a generic, universal tool; is designed for a very particular case. But in that case, I think it can do very well.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

But how does this proposal differ from the already existing "Borrowed (familiar) technologies" that is built into the GURPS 4e tech Level system? In short, why reinvent the wheel?

Using your descriptions and standard Basic Set we get this:

Imperial Technology: TL4-5 (Medicine 3-4)

Brettonian Technology: TL3 or TL3/4-5 (depending on how regually they run into Imperial Technology)

Nordic Technology: TL2 (weapons and armor TL3) (again just slap /4-5 at the end if they regularity handle Imperial Technology)

Skaven Technology: TL3^. If you throw in GURPS Fantasy its ETL could be higher though its mundane TL would still be a 3. (again just slap /4-5 at the end if they regularity handle Imperial Technology)

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

The difference is that the players don't have to concern themselves with any of that: all they need to concern themselves with is: is it Imperial, Brettonian, Nordic, or Skaven? If you're familiar with it, no penalty; if not, -3 penalty.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

The problem with that is it ignores the Tech penalties. A TL2 armorer who tries to fix a TL5 firearm using TL2 tools is probably suffering a -15 to skill. Conversely, a TL5 armorer who tries to fix a TL5 firearm using TL2 tools is probably only suffering a -3 to skill. Tech level is important because it represents accumulated knowledge, not just a tool set.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

In other words, it doesn't produce the same penalties that the official TL penalties produces. That's right; it doesn't. That's why it's a house rule.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

Uh that is not how the penalties work. If the skill is based on IQ it is -5 for each +1TL, -1 for -1TL and -2 for each additional -1TL if an IQ based skill (DX based tech skill are a flat -1 for higher or lower TL)

Also, familiarity penalties are cumulative with TL penalties.

For example a TL9 Surgeon is forced to use a TL7 scalpel. He is at -5 to his skill (-3 for the two TL difference and an additional -2 for an unfamiliar instrument). The inverse is far worse as a TL7 Surgeon would be at a staggering -12 to skill (-10 for the two TL difference and an additional -2 for an unfamiliar instrument)

If either of these surgeons are dealing with physiology differences add yet more familiarity penalties to the pile (there are a host of equipment penalties that are relevant at higher TLs but at TL5 or lower we can safely ignore them as a surgeon didn't really have much in the way of equipment.)

Which is basically how the already existing Borrowed (familiar) technologies does. "A society can be familiar with technology
that it does not itself possess. This is frequently the case for low-tech societies with high-tech neighbors, and for colonies." (B513)

So TL(whatever)/4-5 (Medicine 3-4) solves this issue with players not having to worry about what the Imperial, Brettonian, Nordic, or Skaven tech is. If they have regularly seen/used it then they are at no penalty to use it. Now repairing it might be an issue but odds are they will simply have the item repaired by the local blacksmith who likely has picked up the needed variations of the TL skills.

Step back and ask yourself - just what TL based skills will the players actually use and what TL skills are more likely to be in the hands of NPCs?

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

You're right. That's why it's a house rule. You can argue that it's a bad house rule; but not by saying that it works differently than the official rules: the whole point of a house rule is to work differently than the official rules.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

Instead of having different TLs, have different divergent TLs, as the penalties would be the equivalent.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

This brings up a key point - why create such a house rule in the first place when there already existing standard rules that address the issue and solve the "problem" the house rule was to "fix" in the first place?

As I said before TL(whatever)/4-5 (Medicine 3-4) solves this issue with players not having to worry about what the Imperial, Brettonian, Nordic, or Skaven tech level is. If they have regularly seen/used it then they are at no penalty to use it. Now repairing it might be an issue but odds are they will simply have the item repaired by the local blacksmith who likely has picked up the needed variations of the TL skills.

TL;DR - the house rule is a solution in search of a problem that for all practical purposes doesn't exist.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

Nothing wrong with defining some packages, like tech meta-traits, and giving them convenient and setting-appropriate names. That way the players don't have to dig through the specifications and learn what GURPS means by "divergent" and "superscience" and "X+Y" notation. It's nice that it works out the same under the hood -- but not everyone must always be exposed to the whirling fans and gears and belts every time they want to use their car.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

"Divergent", "superscience" and "X+Y" are really only a player issue if there is a lot of different TL in the setting that the players have to deal with. If there is anything resembling a trade network and there are mostly non isolationists civilizations then the TL is going to even out a bit.

Conversely TL differences within a setting may not really be relevant - "a blacksmith in 1850s England uses TL3 techniques to shoe the horses that pull the carriage the gentleman rides to catch his TL5 train to London." (Basic Set 511) Heck, Blacksmith/TL3 was still viable well into TL6 as motor cars were a rich man's toy until Henry Ford came up with a method to make them cheap enough for the middle class to afford in 1908 and even then it would not be until the 1920s when the car replaced the horse. Our own powergrid is a mixture of TL6 though 8 just on the power plant side while on the consumer side the range is getting to TL6 through 9.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

I used to know a retired Hmong warrior that was transported to the states to take a course in air coordination. Presumably he was reasonably effective at that but I doubt he was ever therefore capable of designing a Phantom.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

There's a certain simplicity to this concept that I like. Basically, you can take a number of cultures at fairly different GURPS TL's (due to divergence, superscience/magic, advancement/retardation in specific fields, etc), and just ignore all of the potentially-complicated mechanics of the TL system. You could optionally add in nuances if needed - a particularly complex tech paradigm might be used at -5 if you lack Tech Familiarity, while a particularly simple one might be at only -1 (it may be appropriate to charge more or less, respectively, for such familiarities).

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

Exactly.

Also, I don't see why people are so insistent that the house rule not be used. It's not like anyone is trying to force you to use it.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

Making things simple for players to understand at a glance is generally a good thing. Given two otherwise identical options, I would take the one in plain text over one using more technical jargon.

Also - I thought you had said earlier that this system wasn't how TL penalties work...wouldn't that qualify it as a house rule that differs from the base system?

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

The actual Tech situation here is a touch complex, and PC's are quite likely to come across tech different from theirs, at least in any game I ran. I'd probably work everything out for my own campaign, but I can certainly see groups of players for whom I'd just say "Its a different tech, flat penalty".

Its a tool, and while its a touch simplistic, I've had players who would wipe their brow and say "Thanks". I've also had players who would enjoy trying to game the tech level complex.

Tools are tools, and picking the right tool for the job is important. This is a simple and blunt tool, but its got situations where its the best thing to do.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

First let's look at the intended consequences. With Cultural Familiarity you spend 1 point to eliminate -3 skill and reaction penalty. So basically it's a Perk that eliminates a -3 penalty to skills like armory and farmer. I don't see a problem. One thing to bear in mind however, is that the mental image of a knight in shining full plate armor actually probably is TL 4 even if they don't have book binding and telescopes.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

Totally different skills. Air coordination would fall under Strategy (air coordination) and is not a TL skill. Designing a Phantom on the other hand is Engineer which is a TL skill.

I should point out that Strategy would cover Sun Tzu's Art of War written at TL2-3 and yet totally viable at at higher TLs.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

Right. In fact, the general image of Camelot itself is a wild mixture of TL2 though 4.

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

Umm, honestly, for this purpose, I'd swipe an idea from Dungeon Fantasy (Warhammer's spiritual second cousin, after all) and drop tech levels altogether. Wacky adventure-fantasy has been smooshing technologies from different dates because of the rule of cool ever since Robert E Howard, if not longer, and one never does see TL2 barbarians going "wot dat?" at stagecoaches. I'm no expert on Warhammer,* but I never have the impression that tech variations are much of an issue for anyone in the setting. Use the occasional familiarity penalty for specific items of gear if it makes you feel better.





*Honestly, you co-write and edit one book for the line...

Re: Tech Familiarity instead of Tech Level
 

You could just say that most WH societies are TL3, with Skaven being TL3+1(skaven) and the empire being TL3+1(Reik). Characters can then purchase TL-dependent skills at either TL3 or TL3+1(whatever). Arguably, the Reik's steam tanks are made using Engineer/TL3+2(Reik).

[Arguably, the Reik's tech is real-world default, and so should be marked as TL4 rather than TL3+1(Reik). However, since no genuine TL4+ nation exists outside of the Reik, it has the same practical effect in rules terms to call it TL3+1(Reik). IN any case, their TL5-equivalent steam tanks are certainly variant technology that would have a real-world TL5 engineer scratching his head].