Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

So, I got my legacy edition box on Wednesday and played my first game of melee in around fifteen years today. Ran into a question almost immediately. When a fighter attacks with a regular weapon and a main gauche, does the main gauche attack happen simultaneously to the main attack, at the adjusted DX rank (so 4 DX slower than the regular attack), or last in the round (like with bows firing multiple shots)?

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

Melee page 13 and ITL 111: "It is rolled at -4 DX."

As with ITL 26 "the to-hit roll is made at DX+3."

This is a success, not a timing modifier. Resolve both attacks at nominal DX.

Note other cases where DX itself rather than the roll is modifed for an attack.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

It isn't clearly specified here, or for related cases under the Two Weapons talent, net and trident, etc. I believe the parsimonious approach is to resolve everything at once at the attacker's place in the adjDX order, rather than to apply the bow rule. Given that the extra bow shot has a pre-requisite but is otherwise just a 'gimmie', whereas second attacks with melee weapons involve DX penalties, I think this approach is reasonably balanced.

One thing I wish had been spelled out more clearly is the question of an adjDX penalty with your main weapon when you also attack on the same turn with a main gauche, and how this influences your armor bonus from the main gauche. A literal reading of the text strongly suggests you attack with normal odds with your main weapon and retain your armor bonus; thus, it is always to your advantage to attempt the second attack using the main gauche. But it's a complex enough situation that a line of clear rules would have been well placed here.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

Thanks for the answers!

Another question that came up was defending. Does it take effect immediately, or does it only kick in when your DX rank comes up in the action order?

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

Always declare defend or dodge when your turn to move comes then change your mind at your DX order point for action if nobody has attacked you yet.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

That's right. Though in practice I also let people make their first statement that they will defend at the moment they are attacked.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

Ok, but if someone does attack you before you come up in the DX order, they still have to roll 4 dice? That seems weird, as it gives low DX fighters an advantage where they can declare defense, have no one attack them as they will be too hard to hit, then suddenly change to an attack when their low DX comes up.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

I have decided to run it that everyone declares their dodge or defend before anyone attacks. After that you can't dodge or defend until your DX comes up in the action phase.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

Hmm? I’m not sure I follow this. Do you mean you declare dodge/defense either during movement, in which case you are stuck with that choice, or you can wait and declare dodge/defense when your DX comes up, but then you miss out on defending against any attacks that came in before your turn to act came up?

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

Yes. Everyone moves, then anyone that wants to can dodge or defend and that is their action for the round. If you didn't dodge or defend right after movement and it comes to your turn and now you don't want to attack, you can still choose to dodge or defend if you want.

So say you charge two goblins and one goes before you and gets a good hit in. If you go before the other goblin you can switch your attack to a defend to try to keep the second one from killing you. If both goblins went before you, you are out of luck.

That's just the way I run it, and it seems fair for everyone.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

Yeah, that seems workable.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

We did it the way larsdingly mentioned, which is how original Wizard and Advanced Melee made clear. i.e. You can switch to Dodge or Defend at any time you have not yet actually used an action and have move 1/2 your MA or less, in reaction to changing circumstances (which would include being attacked). This is both fair and easy, requiring no extra declarations.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

How is it fair? Say Tony, with adjDX 13, declares defense. He has a higher adjDX than anyone engaged with him. No one engaged with him wants to try rolling 4D6 to hit, so they do something else instead. However, since Tony’s turn to act has already come, he can’t now change his declaration and attack instead, he is stuck with preventative defense.

Same situation, Tanya, with an adjDX of 9, declares defense. She has a lower adjDX than any of her opponents. None of them wants to roll 4D6 to try to hit her, so do something else instead. Since Tanya has a lower adjDX, her turn now comes up and she can switch to an attack instead.

So, having a lower adjDX gives Tanya a lot more room to react to changing circumstances, or forces enemies to actually try to hit her when she goes defense, as she can otherwise just switch to attacking. Tony doesn’t have those advantages. And a high DX is supposed to be better than a low DX.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

This recent thread had some discussion about relative DX and converting options to Defend.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

ITL p. 123 covers this; a high adjDX combatant can opt to delay an action until later in the turn.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

Choosing a defense is not something that creates a neon sign over the character's head that reads "DEFENDING! 4D6 to hit now!", so who, exactly, is choosing not to attack Tony or Tanya once either commits to Defense? Any GM that did so would quickly lose players due to that kind of douchebaggery and players who are meta gaming in this fashion would also be ostracized from polite society if they choose not to change their ways.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

I hope that the delayed ITL PDF will have some corrections.

In the meantime I'm maintaining my own list.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

There's no neon sign, but it might be quite obvious that they're going into a defensive stance. They're obviously doing something different than if they weren't defending. So if Aaron is engaged with both Tony and Tanya, and Tony is defending while Tanya is attacking, it would probably be obvious to Aaron that Tanya is moving more aggressively. She is after all trying to hit Aaron, while Tony isn't.

I don't really see any meta gaming here, just tactics. Same deal if Tanya was moving toward Tony while dodging. Sure, Aaron could take the shot anyway. Or, he could switch out the bow for a spear, as he is unlikely to hit a dodging target, while a spear might discourage a charge. But those decisions are based on reacting to events in the game world, not simply to declarations out of the world that the character would have no way of knowing were happening.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

That could actually work quite well. But as the game says, it can end up slowing down the game. Going to run more combats, see if this comes up more as a thing. If not, I'll wait to deal with it until it does.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

Yes, it does. A faster figure isn't forced to declare Defense at their adjDX, and can delay, if for some reason they value their option to defend more than their ability to attack first. So it is no disadvantage IF you allow Delayed Actions (an optional rule).

Moreover, I would argue (from years of TFT experience) that even if the GM does not allow Delayed Actions, that it is very rare in practice that a higher-DX figure will cherish their option to delay their decision about whether to Defend or not, versus wanting to take another action (generally, attacking foes first is the main thing that gets done with high adjDX).

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

I have always played the the Dodge and Defend options are not declared until someone attacks you or you have to act. If you have a higher AdjDX then either delay or declare. If your AdjDX is in the middle, then if the higher AdjDX attacks you, declare then and you're stuck with it for the rest of the Turn. If no one else wants to attack you, your goal is achieved.


BTW - I forced any character delaying an action to wait until all others acted except when the character specified he was waiting for a specific action from his side - e.g. AID from a lower DX Char. Then he would go immediately after the awaited action had occurred. However, he was only allowed to specify actions from his own side, there was no "overwatch" for enemy activity. If you wanted to wait and see what the opposing Wizard cast, then you waited until everyone else had gone before you acted. This also prevented the "I'm waiting for B to act" "No, I'm waiting for A to act.", etc.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

Yes, this is/was my groups's interpretations of the rules as well.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

"No I'm waiting for YOU" -- this really brings back memories. Back in the day, the few times we tried delayed action was in big 3v3 and 4v4 wizard duels. We were all just too cagey and trying to seek too many advantages for it to work.

Re: Question abut when a main gauche attack occurs in the round
 

I am reminded of the final gunfight from The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. Imagine that scene with Wizards instead of Gunslingers.

But to do it the same way, I suppose the Good Wizard (with no name) would need to have secretly drained the Ugly Wizard's powerstone…