Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Do any of you like the way Running worked in original TFT, i.e. + 2 MA regardless of what armor is worn? Or do you prefer the legacy edition where Running only gives you +2 MA in leather or lighter armor?

I think Legacy Edition Running might be more realistic, but I'm leaning toward using original TFT Running in my campaign. It seems harsh that your MA in chainmail or heavier armor will never be more than 6 without magical assistance. In all the TFT campaigns I have been in or run since the early 80s, I would estimate that less than 10% of the PCs actually had chain or heavier armor, and those that did almost inevitably had Running to boost their MA up to 8.
Of course original TFT was a lot more cutthroat than Legacy Edition, in that the XPs gained were directly related to your combat prowess. If you were slower in DX and MA than your comrades, you almost always gained less XP, as your faster friends could engage the enemy quicker, outflank them, and "steal" the DX bonuses for delivering the killing blows.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

I preferred the +2MA regardless of armor.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

We had a long discussion of this somewhere back around the beginning of 2018, but what it boiled down to, as I recall, was that the running talent really wouldn't increase your speed so much as it would your endurance when you are wearing heavy armor (chain and above). So really, the difference was more suitable for GURPS than it was for TFT. The upshot, I think, was the new running rule to increase your speed at the lighter encumbrance styles, and kind of ignore it for heavier armors. If you want to give your heavier guys an advantage, you could always say they require less rest to restore fatigue (assuming you track anything like that -- again, that's more a "GURPS thing" IMO), which would be a fair gesture.

Having said all of that, I can certainly see retaining the old rule, despite it's lack of "realism," simply because it makes it a more fun talent for folks to pick. That seems entirely in keeping with "fun is paramount" theory of RPG-ing! ;-)

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Would it belabor the point to ask why endurance matters? (…he asked nonchalantly, feigning an innocent smile.)

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

I believe I made that point...if you read my comment that it really applies more to GURPS than TFT.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Yes, I know, but I wasn't tweaking at you — I was only pretending not to be addressing the Fourth Wall. :)

I know the TFT system is designed to be ultra-simple, but when I dig into the works, I find these stray cogs and gears that seem to imply (or invite?) a bit more complexity than is actually being employed. Fatigue / Endurance is an example.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

That is interesting, I would think the opposite, running talent would affect short term speed, essentially sprinting, but fail at endurance when considering armor. Why? Because armor along with the thick padding that goes under it causes overheating. Consider modern American Football players, they have great sprint ability but they will die running a marathon in full gear.

Bearing that in mind, all the types of armor are horrible at letting out heat. Well, real armor, fantasy chainmail bikinis probably not. That said, Running talent probably should give its bonus no matter what armor is worn, assuming it is training for using armor: sprints, quick changes of direction, agility, etc while carrying a load. If Running Talent represents marathon training, it might not give any bonus regarding armor.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Hmm, I thought running talent and the Elf MA bonus always applied only to people in leather and lighter armor. Why do I feel like I knew that before the Legacy Edition dropped?

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Because that was in the original edition.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Original ITL, pg 12,
"RUNNING (2): This is the "talent" representing long hours of jogging, sprinting, and other track training. A figure with this ability adds 2 to his/her MA at all times."

Original ITL, pg 50,
"Elves without armor have a MA of 12; in cloth or leather they have a MA of 10. Other armor affects them as it does men."

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Realism is for p****** :)

Lets not forget mighty Beowulf could swim across the freezing North Sea in a full chainmail :) .. on a *slightly* more realistic note, Im pretty sure the Spartan troopers were expected to run forever in heavy armour (plus the good old 18 lbs shield they used) .. dont get confused by that very silly (but entertaining) 300 film, they actually didnt go into battle in speedos (possibly a result of too many aussies in the cast), more head-to-toe bronze plate, far more weight than most greek soldiers wore at the time .. arent our little TFT guys and gals more related to these fellas than 'all very logical realism' ? Hells bells, the guy covering your flank is a reptile man or gargoyle often as not .. realism, bah humbug.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Agreed.

Besides, Running Talent trains you to run. Someone who hasn't spent all that time running (me) wouldn't run as fast and as far. So when I run in chainmail, I would run slower than someone who has trained in running. I would expect him to outpace me if we were both in chainmail.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

What you say makes sense to me. The only reason I can see for the current rule would be if someone found that a character in chainmail or the best quality plate having an MA of 8 or possibly 10 for an Elf with running was very unbalanced and just forcing everyone with such armor to MA 6 was the simplest fix.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

I get the interest in keeping Running providing an advantage that works in armor.

To give voice to another perspective, I can see a balance desire to keep the impact of heavy armor on MA significant, however. In new TFT compared to old, some common means to doing high damage have been lost (high-power missile spells, polearm double damage), and new means of stacking up armor have been added and/or made easier. Stacking armor with other armor effects can make figures nearly invulnerable to most normal fighters, so at least having a check in MA seems like it could be a very important element of balance, to me.

As with all such things, how we decide we prefer to play and to tweak the rules is largely a matter of weighing such considerations from the perspectives of our own tastes.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Skarg, that speaks to what I was wondering. Good to hear that.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Why not compromise between the old and new versions? Running grants +2MA while wearing 'light' armor and +1MA if wearing anything heavier.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Perhaps, but odd numbered MA is significantly disadvantaged in a game that frequently says: Move up to 1/2 MA and.....

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Round up in that scenario?

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

In Tippets Example: the dwarf has an MA of 6 in Chain. But he has Running talent which would bring him up to MA 7. Seven is not evenly divisible by 2, so it would have to be 6 to engage in fight.

So let it be that at MA 7, have them roll 3d6 vs ST if he wants to engage in combat.

• If he makes it he can go that one more hex or 7 hexes.
• If he fails, he only goes 6 hexes.

Sure it's another die roll, but for those who want to play that odd additional hex, the player may be willing to do that.

Also, it adds a bit of uncertainty to the player (and the opponent) for applying movement, which could be interesting.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Under the current rules:

14 hex dragon with Running which is carrying 10xST (five lightly armored humans) has flying MA 6.

Elf with Running whose cloth armor is part of their 10xST total load has MA 6.

Human with Running whose cloth armor is part of their 10xST total load has MA 6.

Human with Running whose plate armor is part of their 10xST total load has MA 4.

Correct?

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

I don't see why that last one isn't 6

Oh, never mind, figured it out.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

What does "Running" have to do with flying?

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

This is a compelling point to me, if not to everyone.

One of TFT's main strengths to me was always that the rules seemed to mostly make sense and play out such as one might expect them to, so it's like a game about the situation, more than many other RPGs which seem to be more about their own artificial abstract constructs.


On this, not so much, because I think players should play what they want, and not all GMs are up to running a game well that involves a lot of fatigue management as a major element of play.

But by the same token, some are, and as far as that goes, I do take your point and agree that for some GMs, fatigue can be an important and interesting element of play.

In The Labyrinth in fact does mention that fatigue can also be incurred by physical exertion. (e.g. Page 10 under Fatigue: "Any figure can also suffer fatigue from running too far too fast, from trying some great feat of strength, etc.") However, it then doesn't provide rules or even guidelines for fatigue except in a few cases, leaving out some the main things adventurers do: hike overland, fight, and run around. So the GM is left to extrapolate some house rules from the examples there are (e.g. mining, berserking).

For a GM capable of running a good game with routine fatigue as an element of play, I expect most could also improvise some decent house rules for it, as TFT is pretty simple, and it doesn't have to be very complex.

There's also GURPS whose fatigue rules could be borrowed readily, as attributes are about on the same ("10 is average") scale, and it does have fairly simple rules/guidlines for how much fatigue is used hiking, running, fighting, etc.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

(…?) You must not have seen my comments elsewhere on the subject of Fatigue.

I was not suggesting that Fatigue does not matter. I was obliquely calling attention to the fact that it supposedly does matter, but nearly no rules exist to demonstrate it.

Running is a perfect example. It obviously calls for some kind of Fatigue rule, but no such rule is given.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Regarding all the discussion on endurance and the excellent example of its importance in storytelling with R.E. Howard's The Frost Giants Daughter.

I think it is futile to hope a simple game or even a super complex game run by a near sentient AI could produce such a tale. However, the tools for a GM to do so are there in TFT. A series of ST roles against slowly increasing odds, interspersed with description and dialogue between player and GM. The gradual reduction of ST in its alternate role of fatigue/endurance making each roll more critical. The final collapse into unconsciousness as the player having won the contest is stunned when Atali's father Yimir saves her at the last second. It's all there but left to the GM to apply as they see fit so it does not burden the game when its consideration would not add to story.

So, IMHO, endurance matters when it affects the story and that is best handled by the GM.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

I agree. And I can easily ignore Fatigue, or any other Rule I don't like, whenever I decide it's not relevant.

But when I decide it IS relevant, it would be awfully convenient if there were already a Rule for me to follow (or ignore), instead of making up my own.

Much like Guns, it's better to have a Rule and not need it, than to need one and not have it.



Afterthought: Incidentally, I do understand that TFT is intended to be simple, and that excess 'granularity' isn't generally desirable, and I'm totally fine with that. (That's why there's an "I Want It All" box sitting twelve feet to my right.)

However… in my RPG experience, running is a really common occurrence. Especially running while wounded (aka: low on Health / ST / Fatigue points / Whatever), and trying to avoid dying. That doesn't seem like a rare event at all, to me. Just sayin'. :)

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Well, I can't complain about being misunderstood when I was deliberately being facetious. :)

And I agree, I prefer a balance of both Fantasy and Realism — enough of the former to be interesting, but enough of the latter to be at least somewhat plausible. As entertaining as the visualization might be, I don't want to swing my great sword and roll 2d6 to see how many of the goblins I cleave in half with a single stroke.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Erm...maybe that should be a similar talent called "Flying," or maybe "Long-Distance Flying?"

Seriously, I'm actually thinking that leg muscles (and your wind) get the workout when running, whereas a completely different set of muscles (and your wind, again, I would imagine) get the workout when flying -- or so it seems to me, never having engaged in any "self-powered" flight myself. (Nor, alas, am I an ornithologist, though I would cheerfully defer to anyone who is!)

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

I'm not sure we are supposed to directly connect MA in combat to the rate of overland travel. There are specific rules already in the game stipulating how fast dragons and such fly when free to move across open space (I don't recall the numbers off hand but they are big).

Anyway, I take the MA base rates and adjustments to be a gamist sort of concept. I always thought the obvious thing to do was base your MA on your base DX minus armor and weight-carried penalties. But, I don't like house rules that land me in more or less the same place I started (but with the added penalty that I'm now playing a game that doesn't work like the game other people are playing). So I've concluded this one is a case where RAW is fine.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

So the Running talent is "Sprinting to the next foxhole with a full combat load" and not "Jogging in plate armor"?

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Not quite: "Sprinting to the next foxhole with a full combat load when wearing leather or lighter armor", to be precise.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

I am not totally sure whether the restriction on running talent is physically realistic or not, but I don't think it is crazy. Usain Bolt is a fast dude, but Usain Bolt getting out of a car in Cherbourg plate armor probably wouldn't look that different from anyone else getting out of a car in Cherbourg plate armor.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Or, as we used to say in the USAF; "The F4 Phantom is absolute proof that if you put a big enough engine on it, you can make a boulder fly!"

Phantom Air -- converting jet fuel to noise since 1963!

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Is it worth it to take a Gargoyle with Silent Movement?

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Perfect! ;-)

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Same. Don't care for most of the changes in LE.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

I consider this a pretty trivial issue. The big changes in the game have to do with experience progression and ways wizards build up reserves of spell casting power. I feel like they got these big things pretty much spot on.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

If you like both, you could call the Legacy edition Sprinting and the OTFT version Running and allow both. This would make for very fast light armor fencer type characters.

Elf (MA 12) with Sprinting (+2 MA in Leather/Cloth armor), Running (+2 MA), wearing Leather armor (total MA 16).

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

So the 60lbs of gear count as air because it's not 60lbs of chainmail? I don't know about you, but I have done the 'sprint to the next foxhole in full combat load' and if that is magically different than sprinting in heavy armor, then you may not have a full grasp of physics, since the combat load of n ot balanced and heavy armor is.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

I think you may have missed the actual meaning of that quote. which was not a suggestion that running around in armor is easy.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

This seems like a workable approach; high MA is nice, but generally not as important as DX or ST, so the consequences of letting characters stack it to ridiculous levels are relatively small.

I also like the idea of having combat actions cost fatigue. One possible way of implementing this (which may or may not be heavily inspired by Skyrim's endurance/fatigue mechanic, and also may or may not be posted in the wrong thread, but meh):

• Armor/shield/parry fully absorbs a blow worth 3+ points damage = 1 point fatigue
• Making a 2nd melee attack in a turn = 1 point fatigue
• Moving full MA = 1 point fatigue.

That's simple enough that even fighters should be able to keep track of it, and heavily armored figures would end up taking a lot more fatigue, as their armor soaks up lots of damage, and as they're frequently forced to move their full MA 6 (or 8 with old Running) to keep up with the action.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

The point of my comment is that sprinting to a foxhole with 60+lb of gear is not easier than running around in 60lb of armor. If you train to sprint/run with a 60lb load then only SCA/Ren Fair armor is going to limit that ability to sprint/run. Well made and properly worn armor does not limit your movement the way most people think, you just can't put it down to take a break.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Yes, that's right — but I did not suggest that it was easier.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

Someone else did.

So, do you , the GOD of your game, go with one version, the other version or use both? Do you allow any one character to take both or do they have to choose one or the other? While very fast characters aren't game breaking in tactical combat, a single very fast character might be seem as having an unfair advantage by a player who chose not to be a very fast character.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

I like the idea of two different skills sets in running, an olympic sprinter trains very differently than a marathoner, but I don't think it's important enough on game play to make any changes.

But, I'm am wondering, can you really "sprint" in full plate armor, with shield n sword while wearing a full backpack and a wineskin?

I don't think anyone is running anywhere in metal armor, at least not for very long, it's going to be a lesson in conservation of energy to make it through the day.
If a walk is MA 3 or less, then you are "running" in your plate armor at MA 6, you just aren't sprinting like your unarmored team mates at MA 10.

I think running talent RAW in current Legacy is just fine, and to be fair, even allowing elves the faster MA while in 16 lbs of boiled leather armor is probably a stretch, it's stiff, it has weight, it moderately protects.

Even giving Cloth armor the same MA as an unarmored man, is very generous considering it's only 2 lbs lighter than leather, and nearly as stiff.

If an unarmored and unencumbered character can achieve an MA of 10 on a dead sprint (no one says for how long he can sustain that rate), then there is no realistic way an armored character can keep up, even with training.

I think the 6 MA for metal armors is probably fair, and taking note that Steve and crew didn't extend the Eleven running affinity to include metal armors says a lot.

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

It's been a while since I read the posts in this thread, but in response to what you wrote above, I think of combat MA as a reflection of how well someone can maneuver and respond in combat from a stop (or possibly from having just run in another direction the previous turn). I don't think of it as running full speed the full turn, because it also allows arbitrary direction changes, and also because the scale is so slow in real-world terms (10 hexes is 40 feet, which means 8 feet per second, which is not running).

So can you "sprint" in plate? Depends on what you mean by sprint. If "sprint" means run as fast as you can, which is faster than your ability to arbitrarily maneuver in any direction during combat, then I would say yes.

That is, I like house rules (and GURPS rules) where if you spend a turn moving full MA in one direction, then the next turn you can say you are running or sprinting in that same general direction, and if so, you can move more like the actual running speed of people - i.e rather higher than your combat MA (minus encumbrance effects, terrain, etc). And so can other creatures...

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

OK, so... you are warming up to a full on sprint, but it takes a dedicated round of building full MA, whatever that "sprint" MA ends up being? 2X MA?

on that note, if moving 8 ft. per second isn't running, then what is "running" in TFT?

The only memory I have from Original TFT, is the Centaur, where one figure is used specifically for "underground" type movement, and the other, twice (2X) the former listed MA is used outdoors.

Any clarity on this?

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

In my games, I'm playtesting a variant MA approach to address some of these issues (I'll post a separate thread in the house rules forum soon).

Basically, there will be three modes of movement for characters and creatures... Walk, Hustle and Run. The 'walk' MA will become the new baseline MA.

Walk = the distance the figure can move and still attack (i.e. 1/2 current base MA score)
Hustle = 2x Walk MA
Run = 4x Walk MA

So instead of MA 10 for a human, the new base MA is 5. Modifications to MA from armor, encumbrance, etc. will be adjusted to fit this paradigm (half what they are now).

Re: Running Talent in Legacy Edition
 

I like that proposal a lot.