Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

I've noticed a couple of apparent errors on the pre-gen character cards.

It is possible these are intentional modifications to the normal weapon stats, but if not, a warning to new players using them:

SIGRUN has a Halberd listed as 2d-1 damage. Halberds do 2d in the weapon table.

SIROCCO has ST9/DX15, but wears cloth armor. She does not have the proper adjDX 14 listed.

MAD OLLY has a saber listing 1d+1 damage. Sabers are listed as doing 2d-2 damage in the weapon table.

MEG also has a saber listing 1d+1 damage.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Oh wow, some more.

I'm going to link to this previous post that identified some of these.
Be Bold Games Unboxes TFT & Potential Typos Spotted

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Yea, I noticed some of these too. I think I will play them as they are, as if the errors represent something unique to the characters (better or worse than normal quality equipment for the most part) and make it clear to new players that the pre-generated cards should not be used as examples of how to design a starting character.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

I will throw away cards with errors. i just can't stand to have something so pointlessly wrong on what is supposed to be a play aid.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

That works for me, too. However, I would still like a complete list of errata, just for reference, especially since I'm still learning the system and might overlook mathematical errors unless they are pointed out.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

You could make corrections in the PDFs and print the out with the corrections though.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Just mail them to me!

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Conducting an experiment. Fixed the four character cards with a fine point permanent Sharpie. See if they won't smear tomorrow.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Let me know how that turns out, it's either that or I'm going to make use of some printed labels and just go over top of them with that.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

I rubbed the cards this morning with a napkin, no smearing.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

How extremely embarrassing. The proper number of errors would have been zero. Four cards wrong is quite out of line. (edit) On pained review, I see that Meg has a weapon too big for her (should be a hammer) and Sirocco is carrying a club which should be a rapier.

I feel motivated to reprint those, since we have updated the character card format anyhow.

Need a better checking process, obviously.

So attached, both as apology and part of that checking process, please find a pdf of the text file for the upcoming wizard cards. If you see anything, post it here!

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Blur ring specifically noted ITL as being always on and not ST cost so why noted this on the random add-on table?

None of the wizards have the lower level Staff spells required by their high level staffs. Will post by XP tomorrow.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Fiona – Halfling Apprentice (30 points)

Should be listed as (32 points), and IQ is listed out of order (before DX)

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Looks good! I appreciate the little reminders about items, as I find it hard to remember which ones require ST expenditure and which don't.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Attribute points are a poor judge of a wizard's abilities.

Here I list each one by XPs used to show how much this jumps around

Larya – Elven Adept (40 points) 16500 XP (Native is free, Staff I through IV)

Talarion the Younger – Elven Wanderer (40 points) 15500 XP

Forsythe – Combat Mage (40 points) 14300 XP

Bynin the Broad – Dwarf Delver Mage (40 points) 12100 XP (Dwarven is native at zero points, but Staff I and II)

Uver Uver – Gate Wizard (39 points) 9800 XP (Staff I and II)

Cerion – Elven Mage-Thief (38 points) 9300 XP (Native is free, Literacy isn't doubled, Staff I and II, "she may [not] use the Staff power at the same time", as that is a Staff IV power.)

Wise – Orc Shaman (38 points) 7300 XP (Native is free, Staff I to IV)

Littlecut – Orc Assassin Mage (38 points) 6900 XP (Staff I and II)

Sor the Soothsayer – Diviner (36 points) 4100 XP (Megahex Avert at IQ 12?, plus Staff I)

Gnarz – Orc Combat Mage (36 points) 3600 XP (Staff I)

Visshalara – Goblin Delver Mage (36 points) 3600 XP (req Staff I)

Endenothee – Court Magician (34 points) 2700 XP (Staff I)

P’nina – Budding Adept (35 points) 2600 XP (Staff I and II)

Rusalka – Shadow Mage (34 points) 1800 XP (Staff I)

Asphodel - Ranger Mage (35 points) 1700 XP (Staff I)

Jomapar – Goblin Mind Mage (36 points) 1700 XP (Staff I and II)

The Magnificent Marvolio – Entertainer (35 points) 1600 XP (missing Staff II)

Embarr – Fire Mage (34 points) 1400 XP

Koris – Practical Mage (32 points) 500 XP (extra skill point)

Fiona – Halfling Apprentice (32, not 30 points) 200 XP (Native tongue is?, needs Knife talent or Thrown Weapons doesn't apply)

Harro Halfheight – Halfling Chef (32 points) 200 XP (Native tongue? Cook is only three points for mundane. Not a starting 30 point Halfling)

Atelyas – Delver Mage (32 points) 0 XP

Medrijji – Summoner Mage (32 points) 0 XP

Orri – Dwarf Mechanician-Mage (32 points) 0 XP (Dwarven is native at zero points, so has another skill point for say literacy or Humanish)

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

If I understood the rules on Staff properly, the higher level Staff Spell replaces the lower level one(s) (and includes it/them as subsumed), so there is no need for the Wizards to show the lesser Staff Spells on their cards.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

ITL 18: "Each level of Staff is a prerequisite to the next."

You don't have to show it, but it does drive the XP costs up a bunch.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Which is relevant to these cards how?

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Several of the cards state how many extra skill points that wizard has. These counts are incorrect.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

maybe these characters were writ while the rules were still in flux?

but a Blur ring costs no ST to power even in the ancient rules

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Blur ring - I thought it worth mentioning. Is it just going to cause added confusion to specify that it uses no ST? Does that sentence need a comma or something?

"Skill levels" - No such term in TFT. That's GURPS. Henry, please tell me what you mean. But I do not believe you are figuring the Staff spell improvements as intended.

I'm going to post the Orc Fighter cards here too, RSN, in order to get the benefit of all these eyeballs.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

I define the term skill points as current IQ plus XP points spent on talents and spells divided by 500. This allows me to compare wizards and heroes.

If I'm wrong about Staff V costing 5 skill points (one per level of Staff) then goblin sorcereress become even more overpowering.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Ah. So it's a self-referential term that has meaning for you. Okay, got it. Still not in the rules though -- and it's been a great source of confusion in your many posts on talents and skill levels.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

When you see an inaccurate/house rule mention, please flag it so that our team can either delete the post or move it into house rules where it belongs. With the game just now reaching everyone (and in stores next week), we want to cut down on confusion where we can.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

A better fix would be to list the XP each wizard has expended. This would include Mana, which never costs IQ points. You could also reverse equipment cost of fancy or enchanted equipment through the one gold piece per XP ratio.

Or find the XP cost of extra talents, mana and gear and convert this into XP and apply this for straight attributes and round up for attribute equivalent.

Larya – Elven Adept (40 points / 42 equivalent points)
Talarion the Younger – Elven Wanderer (40 points / 41 equivalent points)
Gnarz – Orc Combat Mage (36 points / 39 equivalent points)
Koris – Practical Mage (32 points / 36 equivalent points)

etc.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Slowly checking through the TFT Wizard cards. Found the following so far:

Atelyas doesn't have high enough IQ for Lock/Knock, Orri should have Dwarven Tongue for free, Endenothee has his name spelled two different ways.

I will work through more later.

As a general observation, a surprisingly high number of these wizards are illiterate. Makes one wonder if the vaunted mages guild is at all close to its reputation. Personally, I kind of like the idea of powerful wizards having to ask a clerk to read their correspondence to them. Lol.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Continuing checking the Wizards:

Sor the Soothsayer should not have Megahex Avert, it is IQ 15 and his IQ is 12.

Talarion the Younger should have elvish language for free, he being an elf.

Harro Halfheight should have knife talent.

Asphodel should be MA 8

Wise should have Orc tongue for free

Littlecut should have knife talent.

Fiona IQ and DX stats are transposed and she should have the knife talent.

The Magnificent Marvolio should have Staff II

Larya Eleven Tongue should be free since she is an elf. And in her description: "Sometimes, though, she is busy with the corps of apprentices and her fellow masters, bring new magic items into the world. " , bring should be replaced with bringing.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Regarding the Knife talent, in original TFT, we often had wizards and fighters who carried daggers for emergency use in HTH combat, where we thought having the talent didn't matter. We thought Knife wasn't needed to use a dagger in HTH, but now I can't remember if that was in a Q&A somewhere, a house rule, or if we just reasoned that you get +4 DX in HTH, so daggers tend to be useful for people without the knife talent in HTH anyway.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Hmm. That's a point I don't think we ever even considered... I think we always assumed you needed to have the Knife talent to use a knife effectively in combat. The only thing we did was make sure that it didn't cost double for a wizard, since it was such a basic skill, and we thought anybody planning a career of violence (whether Wizard or Warrior) would probably get some basic training in how to use a knife. But I can sure see your point now that you bring it up!

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Untalented dagger does make a difference for the listed Halfling because it negates Thrown Weapons talent.

In the more general case of DX 10 wizard with untalented dagger-stave:
The wizard can defend untalented.
Knife talent has no impact on occult strike.
A DX 10 untalented dagger can be drawn half of the time in HTH and will hit 55.63% of the time for +3 damage over bare hands that hit 90.74% of the time.
With Staff II or higher the wizard is immune to the greater chances of dropping or breaking the weapon.

Personally I'd add a note in each case that this specific wizard was training to use his dagger or sword and would buy the talent as soon as he had the XP.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

My thoughts on the wizards that I suggested need knife skill were mostly for logical character design.

The halfling cook obviously intends to use them in combat or he would only carry one, only an idiot would assume he would always be able to stand off and throw them, lastly, he is a chef and must be using knives constantly.

Littlecut, is an assassin for gosh sakes, one of the classic cloak and dagger types. Lastly his name, almost certainly a self chosen nick name, implies that he expects to cut opponents or victims.

Fiona, may be such a starting character that indeed she hasn't become skilled with knife yet so her not having the talent is more reasonable. By the way, what is with halflings and ankle sheaths? On most people it is a good place since it is concealed by their boot. But halflings have a tradition of being barefoot, no?

And, here are the last wizards that need correction:

Cerion is an elf so elven language should be free. Also in her description: "When she fights seriously with her saber, she may use the Staff power at the same time, adding an armor bypassing die of damage to the results." The ability to do this is Staff IV. Cerion only has Staff III.

Uver Uver has Create/Destroy Gate spell but it doesn't exist; should have Create Gate. She also needs Staff IV, she has Staff III.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

In Legacy Edition, no one is required to select talents to train in and can spend their XP on whatever they want when they earn enough. So this seems more like a house rule.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Not as a restriction on the character, but as a nudge to the player to remind them to take this into account during play.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Okay, but I still personally wouldn't do that. It at least implies questions about changing their mind and all that other stuff that comes along with it, is likely to start one of those tedious rules arguments, and I just figure that it unnecessarily complicates the game. However, having said that, to each his own!

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Note on languages - you don't automatically get both a racial language and Common Tongue. See p. 17. Reality check: those born in a multicultural area will probably learn Common at their mother's knee; those born to a single-race area will probably learn a local racial language. Balance check: One free language per person. Stevie's Hidden Canon check - I see Humans, Halflings, and most Goblins as highly assimilated and most likely to speak Common as their only language. Dwarves, Elves, and Orcs less so, unless they are, personally, from multicultural cities. Perhaps the Humans &c are the "Americans" of Cidri, and the Elves &c are the "Europeans" ?

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Orcs to look at! This is the final-we-think layout for the 24 orcs in DoD. Art by Rick Hershey. Errors, if any, by me.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Do we assume daggers for orcs sans MG?

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

So it says on the instructions card at the bottom of the PDF.

I love the art work! Well done. Though, based on the art work, I have to ask if Narzad shouldn't actually have a lower DX, given his lack of depth perception and inability to see anything on his right side...

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Orcs seem like the race for cestus.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

As in

the race to use a cestus.

or

the race to take out with a cestus.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Thanks everyone, especially oldwolf and Ben Williams, who is doing the layout on these cards and checking as he goes. I am getting better at seeing what breaks as a character develops and changes in draft . . . but I still am convinced that posting them here is worthwhile.

The TFT Helper app will also be useful for validating characters, though (for instance) the current version is not going to tell me specifically that I have a talent too high for my IQ - it will just tell me it's not legal.

I don't really want to change the format of the cards, but I'll ask anyway because I'm a glutton for punishment: does anyone see anything that's necessary or highly useful that isn't yet shown on the card?

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

They look good to me. I like to put an indicator on the card to show which counter they use, especially in larger combats, but it's probably not worth the space for most people.

Between the character cards, treasure cards, and post card labyrinths, you're most of the way to producing (solo?) adventures as decks of cards instead of booklets. Please? :)

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Ah hah. Another question.

Several of the high-level cards note that they have "extra" spells and talents. Should that just be a general note on the instruction card, leaving more space (or letting type be bigger) on the individual cards?

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Unless is a character defining talent or spell, I vote you leave it off in favor of larger type and flexibility for the GM.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

I agree, but it might be useful to have (somewhere) a small list of likely choices. Separate cards for that purpose seem like a good idea to me — one for Talents and one for Spells — and each one could have a few categories (Combat, Utility, Home Repair, whatever), with half a dozen of the likeliest Talents / Spells listed for each, and numbered so you can roll for them randomly if you want.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Steve,

When I'm writing up my own cards on the pads, I always include, for each armor and shield item in the armor section, how many hits it absorbs by itself, and what it's DX penalty is by itself.

E.g:
Chain Mail. -3DX. -3 Hits
Lg. Shield. -1DX. -2 Hits

This way I can tell what the adjDX and protection level should be whether the shield is readied or not. It seems clearer to be than the other notation I've seen: having a second adjDX in a second set of parentheses in the DX box.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Further to the racial languages question :(

I see that p. 44, Languages box, still says that you get your race's language for free. Thought I had nuked that. It certainly leads to unfairness unless you assume that all Humans have a language over and above Common, which seems silly. But it's there. Must think on this, quickly.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

I think, as long as your game world is heavily dominated by humans, they have enough social advantages as it is. Given the clannish and racist nature of humans the fact that an elf or a dwarf has their own racial language in addition to the common tongue will be counterbalanced by the fact that these non-humans may be discriminated against in many places by the majority humans.

If your game has a different racial emphasis, you may want to tweak that so that humans aren't disadvantaged.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Non-humans growing up in human-town get their racial language for free and Humanish as a mundane talent. This is all assumed at zero points as is therefore mentioned briefly on the reference card. No languages are listed on the character cards themselves.

Human wizards take Literacy as their mundane talent (again listed only on the reference card) while every non-human wizard with a chest lists Literacy(1) as a talent.

Or include a random wizard mundane talent table on the reference card like say:
1,2: Racial mundane talent (Miner for Dwarves, Area Knowledge-woods for elves, etc)
3,4: Most common language outside their own race
5,6: Literacy

One more thing:

Put ("And two points in other talents or spells") at the end of each wizard card and have a random wizard add-on deck.
Sample cards:
Sword Talent and a silver sword (staff also if they have the spell)
A wizard's chest and a book with a half dozen spells
Alertness
etc.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Have you guys seriously considered re-printing the cards with mistakes corrected? Seems like an especially good time to do it, with the current DoD kickstarter going...

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

I would pay an add-on for corrected cards. Just sayin’

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Frankly, I've thrown an inordinate amount of money at the TFT kickstarters, and I will continue to do so.

But on principal, I gotta say, these types of errors seem like something that should be thrown in for free. I think Steve is right to feel embarrassed about this one--it's kinda sloppy and should have been caught :-/

With all of that said--I'd personally be fine paying for the cards as an add-on. But that's just me when it comes to TFT and SJG. If it were any other kickstarter or company, I'd probably be screaming "sloppy! do the right thing!". I wouldn't expect the average supporter to just suck it up.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

I've probably arriving at this thread too late, but the MA's for some of the Orcs are off, and I didn't see this mentioned anywhere. Most appear to have a base MA of 10 with reductions due to armor.

But a couple are unnaturally slow.

Khresh the Lovely: MA=6, no armor
Snarch: MA=6, leather armor

One could say these two are crippled in some way, but I think this is just a mistake.

And two of these orcs are unnaturally fast:
Tekkosh: MA=8, chainmail
Sulgag: MA=10, chainmail!!!

Running doesnt work with chainmail anymore, and MA 10 with chainmail has never been possible.

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

I think it unreasonable to assume a First run print, with lots of updates and changes would hit the street without errors, and lots of them at that!

I am personally a bit excited to hear about these errors, it's what one day will be collectors items.

Unfortunately I missed the boat when Steve made the announcement he was the new owner of TFT and his Intellectual Properties of yesteryear.
Unfortunately I "missed out" on the whole KS campaign, because If I had known I would have had two or three on order.
I am the proud owner now of One; "I want it all" boxed set, and One; Legacy boxed set.

I figure by the next major round of printing, due to the very existence of forums like this, Steve will have 99% of the errors corrected.

I have a pile of Original TFT stuff, I spent a fair amount of $$ over the years and I value the earliest printings because of the errors, even though some of my books aren't in great shape.

In fact this brings to mind, something I'm sure folks have asked for, is there a resource that makes it clear the different "editions" and "revisions" of the old stuff, and even references the rarity of said items?

Re: Pre-Gen Character Card Errors
 

Someone just reported on TFT Discord that Danira in the orignal cards has MA 8 in Cloth armor - should be 10, unless she has a gimpy leg or carries a large sack of potatoes into combat.

The fast orcs you mentioned do seem to be pretty impossible, though.