(DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

How many character points do you think a PC needs to start a career in dungeon delving?

Let's assume that they can't join a party that has members of higher point value than they are.

Does the minimum depend on what class the PC is?

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

You could scale it to whatever you want really. Just have fewer, weaker monsters. It's about what feel you are going for.

If I wanted heroic cinematic fantasy, I wouldn't go below 150 points unless I intended to emulate a D&D-esque 'pleb to demigod' progression.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

Depends on the content of the dungeon
Spellcasters scale poorly at low point levels.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

I'm a firm believer in nothing less than 250, but people do not see it my way.

Not really, but Anthony is not remiss in noting that that at low point levels casters really get the shaft in GURPS, where at point levels to let them thrive, non-casters often get to 'unspecialized' (as in they can stop being Johnny One-Skill).

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

Henchmen has 62-point templates, so that is at least the minimum. I would say that is the best for a rags to riches game.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

I used that for a Warhammer game once, and it worked out great. So beyond low-level D&D (or DCC) dungeons, WFRP could server as a good inspiration for adventures below the usual DF starting point.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

my PCs started with 150+ 30 of disadv..
To be honest, this depends a lot by you as GM and the experience of your players.

I'd prefer a slow improvement of their abilities, but i play a long term campaign. If you are just looking for dungeon crawling, could be different

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

If your dungeon has regular rats, giant rats, modest numbers of unarmed/armored zombies, and a minimal number of deathtraps, I think the 50-62 point range would be fine.

If it has water elementals and puddings, you need more dangerous delvers.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

In my current campaign, we were going for that classic DnD weak start, fast progression model. The PCs started with 125-pt templates plus 5 points of "flavor" traits: language, culture, Area Knowledge, etc. They are now ~800 pts. (earning roughly 10 pts per session).

Survival was definitely a bigger challenge in the early parts of the campaign, due to HT scores in the 11-13 range and lack of Luck. Some PCs died, but everyone had fun trying to stay alive fighting goblins, skeletons, etc. The party had to be willing to run away sometimes. The first "adventure" involved clearing some unwelcome kobolds out of Old Man Withers' barn.

Now, my challenge as GM is making things still seem exciting. A battle with 3-5 death checks is kind of ho-hum and probably an easy fight, given that everyone has HT 16+ and Extraordinary Luck at a bare minimum. Running away is generally not an option, because by the time the fight is looking unwinnable, it's probably too late to make an effective run for it (some party members are unconscious, mind-controlled, reeling from their wounds, etc.).

Everything has become ridiculously over-the-top. Our two most recent stand-alone encounters: a well-defended castle, complete with flying defenders, steampunk turrets, magical traps, and ~150 men-at-arms of various skills levels, including casters; an army of 50 SM+4 giants. The party is currently visiting a spider-themed infernal realm. They are traversing a dungeon composed entirely of spider webbing, battling giant spiders, spider swarms, and spider demons, and about to encounter the demon lord of the realm, all while suffering a slew of horrendous situational modifiers (the worst of which is the lack of holy sanctity).

TLDR: the GM has to use different kinds of creativity at different levels, but basically any level is possible for DF.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

in my current campaign the PCs started at 100 points+30 points disads and that worked well enough for low level dungeon delvers. The seemed a lot like low level D&D characters in ability.

The current 4000 points does not really work that well for dungeon delving.. :)

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

You can go as low as you want, you just have to scale the opposition. If you are fighting unarmored 1 hit point opponents, none of whom have a skill level higher than 8 or weapons better than a stick, you can get away with poverty stricken PCs with no skills whatsoever.

I think that's the easy case. If everybody is low point, scaling the opposition is simple. What's hard is finding a way to make a low point PC at all relevant as part of a party of higher point value characters. I probably wouldn't try anything less than half the party average.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

Someone who focuses on a niche that is otherwise essentially ignored can be useful despite significant point differences (if the party is all combat focused, a low point but very specialized healer would be welcome). Whether it would be fun or not is another question. That's usually the sort of thing for which you get an NPC hireling.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

I agree with this fact as well. IMO, 250 CP allow your players building characters good enough to start adventuring in most settings, without taxing their imagination (especially when confronting expectation versus reality).

Regarding CP budget and PC's classes; budget is not necessarily relevant to class because you can buy whatever fits/distinguishes your class and that's it. On the other hand, you could set some “house rules” and provide guidelines to your players and parameters for classes. A fighter and a knight could start with the same CP value and exactly the same skills, etc. but maybe in the future the fighter will have access to light armor only & DX up to 20 but the knight will have access to any kind of armor & DX up to 19, etc.

However, if you want balance among your players and also functional classes, you should look for character templates. You could throw 5 templates worth 100 CP each, and allow your players customize them using the remaining 150 CP.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

It all depends on what era of D&D one is trying to emulate. The oldest versions (OD&D, AD&D1 and 2) had characters so pathetic at low levels that a 50 point GURPS could do more. Magic-Users really sucked in those versions.

This depends on what magic system one is using and the mana level of the world. Even at low levels a GURPS wizard will generally be in far better shape then his 1st level AD&D counterpart. And he won't be worrying about dying to ordinary house cats (the way HP and damage were figured this was very possible).

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

HM. I've really enjoyed playing first level AD&D. My favorite level. I've even had a lot of fun playing a first level MU. My one Sleep spell felt like a nuke. But I have to admit that MUs scaled badly compared to other classes. In AD&D, a 1st level fighter was just plain more useful than a 1st level MU.

I wonder what an AD&D first level fighter would be worth in GURPS cp.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

Depends on attributes. A fighter with mediocre attributes could easily be 25 points or less (attributes: all 10. Skills: weapon of choice-12).

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

Sounds like Dragon #99's "History of a game that failed" :-) While some of the advice there is really bad (wish twisting just rubs me the wrong way. If you can't handle the D&D version of wish then don't let it in the freaking game rather FUBARing the player over because as a GM you were a freaking idiot) there is still good information in piece.

The part titled "Do not allow a character to become more powerful than a chugging locomotive." applies in this case. Interestingly there was the Immortal Rules in the OD&D set but it really wasn't that good for the simple reason that as an immortal you can't die only be inconvenienced as you are a spirit and if powerful enough a full fledged "god"...which where the problem comes in.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

For an old school D&D feel (i.e., have a spare character waiting when the first one gets killed), you might do 75+25. Spell casters are marginal at this level, and martial artists don't really work.

I like the 150+50 level, and have run that a few times. Martial artists are marginal at this level, but most others will do okay if focused. Dungeon Fantasy 15 Henchmen is your friend for this level. I use old D&D (Keep on the Borderland) at this level.

The default 250+50 works fine.

I've run a couple 300+50 for a small group that needed niches filled. Dungeon Fantasy 3 The Next Level gives the 50 point packages to slap on.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

My campaign started at 125 points. At that level, the party could easily beat skeletons, but had trouble with zombies. It ran from the evil cleric who had sent those zombies.

To be fair, if the cleric had even a little True Faith, it might have been able to handle the zombies better and not been so beaten up when it met the evil cleric.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

1st level MU was so pathetic that there was a Murphy's Rule on it where a ordinary housecat was cleaning itself next to a dead 1st level MU

Actually looking at the PHB for AD&D1 it is surprising much more then that as they knew (was proficient in) four weapons and was only -2 with a weapon he wasn't familiar with (PHB 37) The closest thing in GURPS to that is the 45 point version of Weapon Master.

MUs by contrast had only one weapon and a -5 to any other at 1st level.

In my D&D to GURPS I figure a Fighter is at least [14 points] by having 1 point in each of the following: Skills: Armoury/TL, Bow, Brawling, Crossbow, Melee Weapons (Axe/Mace, Flail, Knife, Polearm, Spear, Shortsword, Two handed Axe/Mace, and Two-handed sword), Shield, Throwing.

You may think that is too low but they only had an 10 on a d20 (50%) to hit something with no armor and no DEX bonuses at first level. Going through the math (assuming stats of 10 across the board) a Dodge (5.0) only works 4.6% of the time which means the attack succeeds 95.4%. 50%=x*95.4% or 50%/95.4% or 52.4% which is way closer to 10 (50%) then to skill 11 (62.5%) This is all ignoring the longer AD&D1 combat round ("a turn is 10 minutes, a round 1 minute, and a segment 6 seconds") which really tanks the skill level...even at high AD&D1 levels. It far better in D&D5e where combat is in 6 seconds segments but that is still less then stellar compared to a 1 second combat round in GURPS.

I fact in term of percentages AD&D1 1st level characters majorly suck compared to even 75 point characters if you don't factor in their special abilities (such as a Fighter having 45 point Weapon Master out of the gate)

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

That sounds about right for 1st level AD&D / old-school D&D.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

That's true, they do. But only the Guard really looks like someone who could turn into a PC. And even the Guard looks a bit squishy to go into the dungeon without "higher level" help. I think 62 points might be too low for dungeon delving PCs.

The 125 points templates would certainly make great low-level PCs (as they are intended to be).

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

In AD&D1 fighters could use all weapons equally well, so they should have 3-4 weapon skills at 10-12. In AD&D2 using weapon proficiencies they could start with four, or two plus a specialisation, so two weapons at 10-11, plus one at 12, I suppose.

A bad hit point roll could make even a fighter awful at 1st level though. People talk about the fragility of a MU1 with 1 hit point, but at least they could still do their magic thing. A fighter with 1hp was simply screwed. I suppose if the party included enough other fighter-types and cleric you could cower in the middle with the magic user and shoot arrows at people.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

Actually, "At the start, your character will be able to employ but a limited number of weapons. The number is determined by class. When the character moves up in levels of experience to the next higher combat melee table, he or she is assumed to have acquired proficiency in an additional weapon" (PHB 36)

Fighter got the most at first level (four) and were the second fastest at getting new weapons (Monk was the fastest)


You are forgetting that a Fighter could wear armor which the MU couldn't. Also if you followed the DMG1 to the letter the one spell (which could be cast only once and then relearned) the MU got it randomly (DMG1 p39)

'Great, you rolled Light for your 1st level spell. Sucks to be you.'

There were a lot of good reasons DMs didn't follow all the DMG1's rules: they didn't make sense, require convoluted nonsensical explanations (the armor and weapon restrictions), resulted in Monty Haulism (the 1500 gp per level per week - on a 1d4 rule; DMG1 p86), or didn't actually follow its inspirational material (Gandalf was a MU and he used a sword in the Hobbit, you silly game).

The later Cantrips in Unearthed Arcana didn't help, unless you wanted to make more joke's at the MU's expense (That whole book was a balance disaster)

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

In a long ago campaign the players had dozens of wishes used, some even hundreds. They went as far as to write a guidebook "how to use and abuse wishes". But as the campaign was geared for that it was really not a problem.

The characters actually work fairly well for their current role of "want to be a major gods soon", but actual dungeon delving is not that suitable mostly for that point level.

They can take down small armies or sweet talk the armies to change sides or such..

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

Sounds like the party should be knocking around in the campaign's equivalent of the Outer Planes rather then messing with mortals.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

The way the campaign is set up, in effect they are.. as the home plane is a "portal plane" where it is remarkable easy to planar transit, so it is a battleground between forces and has a long history of being target of interplanar conquerors and such.

But they do do a fair bit of planar travel.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

I have run 75 point and 125 point delves, links to my 75point templates herehttps://gwythaintny.wordpress.com/20...play-and-more/

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

Which document is the 75 pont templates exactly?

Have you written up any 75 point delves? I'm having a hard time imagining that.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

Let me preface this by saying that we generally run lower point games because we like the farm-boy does good games and we run longer arcs. Our fantasy games are not dungeon-tactical, rarely do they involve caves or treasure chests with traps on them. We also run mostly 3-4 player games.

Most of our fantasy games are 75 pt characters with -40 Disadvantages and -5 Quirks. We generally don't allow Munchkin characters so in that 75pts you have to have some professional skill support. Judging from other posts this probably seems very low but it makes the fear of mortality very present and it makes you have to make serious sacrifices for abilities like Luck or Combat Reflexes. It also gives you a very satisfying character arc in a 20-game campaign, starting as a foolish towny who can barely survive an encounter with a pack of wolves to a hero that has taken down a cult of werewolves plaguing the kingdom.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

My rules for DF lite are here
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...REVd-PGFIWiM0K and youcan get the adventure I wrote and adapted here:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/232358

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

I ran a game that started with 75-point characters with a plan for a time-jump during which they would train their powers of destiny blah-blah and come out the other side as much higher level heroes, but the group kind of broke up before it hit the time-jump.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

How did combat go at 75 points?

I'm thinking that a party of 75 pointers could have it tough dealing with an equal number of Orcs.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

The opponents were not standard DF, I used AD&D style goblins, who mostly retreated, and a couple of wolves that they took out with arrows and a halberd. There was a fair amount of whiffing.

Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?
 

I honestly can't remember the specifics from that campaign, which was probably 10 years ago now. I know they didn't fight orcs, because my setting didn't feature them.