Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

ITL page 116 says:
Is a standing crossbowman leaning against a tree or a column considered braced?

How about kneeling over a barrel or large rock that is being used for cover?

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

I tend to say no to vertical bracing like the side of a tree or column, but yes to horizontal bracing like a barrel, rock, or occasional very fortuitously-located horizontal tree branch.

i.e. I don't think you can brace a crossbow sideways. I think it means like steadying a camera - if it's resting on something solid, then it's not your hands resisting gravity, so it tends to be much more stable.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

You couldn't brace the crossbow itself against a vertical tree trunk, but you could brace yourself a bit by leaning against it — and also gain a bit of cover.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

You need to brace the weapon, not yourself; that's what the rule says. It's like a stand for a gun. The stand steadies the gun, not the shooter.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

I'm with Skarg on this one, I think. Though, I suppose, if one of my players could argue it logically, I might give them a +1 for vertical bracing, just like if they were prone. Still, I think the +2 should be reserved for when you have the weapon braced, not the person.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

I've never fired an authentic replica heavy crossbow, but it doesn't look to me like something that would benefit from a vertical brace. It is just a big, awkwardly shaped machine that would probably have to rest on something to be truly braced.

On a related point, I didn't notice what the new edition says about under strengthed people using crossbows. If I have ST 10 and use a heavy crossbow on a fully braced support, can I shoot without a penalty? Or is it at -5?

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

See my house rules https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#crossbow for brace to strength to make cranequin actually useful. As written you shouldn't bother ever buying one.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

As far as leaning against the tree is concerned, I would grant the DX advantage for bracing. Done correctly, your legs and the tree form a stable tripod. We were taught to do this for weapons qualification for short and long guns in law enforcement. I think it would work the same for a crossbow.

Over the barrel or rock, I would want to know if you are resting the crossbow on it. If so, yes, its braced.

Just my two cents.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

That's fair enough.

That's why I think so, too. While I have never shot a medieval style heavy crossbow, I have shot a modern one, and plenty of guns. And even without the Law Enforcement training, I know that the more you're touching solid anything around you, the more stable your aim.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

So you could be in a house and use the windowsill as a brace.

You could also have this: "Corporal Maynar, kneel and lower your head. Jonesy over here is going to use your back as a brace."

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

We trained that way in the Infantry as well -- and often with fairly heavy weapons (including machine guns) -- and it worked pretty well (though bracing the weapon itself on something always gave a steadier shot.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

That doesn't work. You brace to cancel out all the little twitches and vibrations natural to the human body. If you try to use another another person as a brace, it just multiplies the issues. I am aware that, historically, this has been tried. Nobody still attempts it today.

The problem I'm seeing here is that a firearm has relatively smooth sides, so you can clamp it to a vertical surface using your support hand. A crossbow has a great big bow in the horizontal plane, which will get in the way. I wouldn't allow it. To my mind, a crossbow can only be braced on a horizontal surface. I can also say, from considerable experience shooting, that bracing your body doesn't help, and can actually lead to worse aim and increased felt recoil.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

I'm not a real-world experts with guns or crossbows, but it stands to reason that a crossbow would give you a lot of headaches you might not have encountered with a rifle. A rifle is a tube whereas a crossbow is a large, dumb robot.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

Well, possibly you're right, that's one of those "technicality" arguments that never really gets resolved until someone gets a genuine crossbow and tries it a few hundred times in order to build a statistical basis for resolving it. Until then, if the player gave me a good argument, I'd allow it, but each of us runs things his own way...

(My experience with using various supports in the military was fairly extensive, though. The light infantry (11B) gets fairly creative about those things. Just sayin'... :-) )

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

It's not about statistical analysis. It's about trying to fit two objects into the same space at the same time. The bow and string on a cocked crossbow extend some distance to either side, and nearly the full length, of the weapon. You're just not going to be able to push it against a vertical surface to brace it. You have to lay it on something.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

I'm thinking you're possibly not considering the full possibilities of bracing though. Perhaps leaning back or sideways against the tree would provide some extra stability (we're not addressing cover and concealment here, only bracing). All I'm saying is that my mind isn't locked in stone on this, and if a valid argument were made to me, I'd consider it.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

I'm beginning to think we need someone who actually owns a crossbow here. :D

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

I do actually own a crossbow, which is how I've shot one. (It is a modern design, which probably qualifies as a "Light Crossbow" because it only has an 80 lb. draw weight.)

And you are right, ColBosch: when the bow is cocked (drawn), the bow and strings form a big triangle / pie slice, and there is no way you could brace the crossbow itself against anything to its side (or from any direction except underneath).

But as I suggested before, you can nevertheless gain some stability by leaning yourself against anything solid. Not a lot, maybe, but some. I would say the gain is comparable to the difference between standing and kneeling (or sitting, for that matter).

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

Can you apply Waiting for an Opening(ITL 127) while remaining concealed at the -6 level of Concealment (ITL 122) behind that tree?

And does Concealment stack with your cheap no-fatigue Blur ring to a -10?

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

Might I suggest a compromise. +2 DX for bracing with a support under the crossbow and +1 for bracing against a vertical surface, using the crossbow or the firer's body in contact the bracing surface.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

A +1 bonus is always an effective way to get a player to let go of an argument.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

Well, that's what I suggested up above, for precisely this reason, so you certainly have MY support! ;-)

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

What's the IQ roll to find a branch at the right height for bracing?

Does it depend on having the Woodsman talent?

Must resist urge to put "Got Woodsman?" in my sig.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

Meanwhile, as the prissy crossbowman runs around desperately searching for a tree with some branches at just the right height, rejecting muddy spots and places with too many leaves, the grizzled longbow archer watches from a distance — shaking his head in disgust — and he quietly nocks an arrow, draws the string back, and takes aim…

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

I wonder how many people remember my original question?

After reading all the replies I believe I have my answers.

• Standing or leaning against a tree or column may offer some added stability to the crossbowman and a GM may house rule a +1 DX or not.
  
• To get a +2 DX bonus while standing there needs to be a supporting object under the crossbow.
  
• Kneeling or sitting with some object (perhaps the cranquin) supporting the crossbow from underneath gets a +2 DX bonus.

I had no idea when I started this thread that there could be so many opinions about this. I'm glad I didn't ask a hard question.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

Hey, at least you got a consensus. I know of rules questions for some games that have been debated for at least the past two decades.

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

RVA_Grandpa, you forgot the additional Implied Answers, that…

• Two crossbowmen looking for DX bonuses in the bushes are worth one actually shooting.
• Leaning against a tree and resting the crossbow on something might be worth +3 DX, and is surely worth another few pages of debate.
• Nobody has addressed laser sights, scopes, or the obvious need for new Talents like "Marksmanship" and "Ballistics"

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

*initiates HTH combat against FireHorse*

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

*face-down, bloodied and pounded nearly flat as ColBosch stomps away, calls out in a choking gasp…"

—and what if the Tree is sentient…?

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

Now this is the kind of well thought out intellectual discussion I want to see.

Thanks you guys!

Re: Crossbow - Prone or Kneeling Fire
 

It was briefly mentioned... but the whole vertical support thing vs; horizontal resting of the weight of the crossbow on something is looking squarely at skeletal support vs; muscular support of the human body.

In the prone, I am using very little muscular support, so not twitching, pulse modulations etc... in the kneeling I can get some skeletal but more impacted by muscular support. in the standing offhand it's much more muscular and even less skeletal support.

The above is difficult with a firearm, it would be much more difficult with a heavy crossbow, both the kick and the weight.

Resting on a large rock, would give a worlds of stability in comparison to a standing offhand shot leaning against a tree, because you are still plagued by the muscular support issue.

as a side note on cranquins/windlass , historically you see the wind up windlass more common on heavy draw crossbows, it's bulky clumsy and quite the rats nest of line and pulleys, but in game terms, that would be so a NORMAL strength human could load it, if you truly have a 12+ ST or 15+ ST character, you should be able to load said crossbow fairly easily with the aid of a simple cocking lever integrated into the stock, those large draw crossbows only cocked back a few inches, not like Bows at all, using a mechanical lever of even a 4;1 ratio would make short work of a reload scenario.