Untalented attempts
 

Which of the two different untalented lockpicking rules from ITL do you apply to other attempts to do things without talents?

I chose one of the two in my errata, but it seems harsh.

Re: Untalented attempts
 

I add 1 die for normal sorts of things most people imagine they could do with a little luck, and double the dice for things no reasonable person would imagine they could do without training.

Re: Untalented attempts
 

That's the same way I do it...

Re: Untalented attempts
 

What about tasks that don't require rolls? Should anyone be able to try to bind up wounds like a physicker?

I had a general rule to let characters buy the basic version of pretty much any talent, cheap, which improved the chance someone would have a chance of success at most things.

Re: Untalented attempts
 

Give the pages of the 2 different untalented lockpicking rules please, so I can look at them. Or list them here.

Re: Untalented attempts
 

All listed in my errata of course.

http://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#IQ11Talents

Re: Untalented attempts
 

Generally no, because those tend to be descriptions of things that the talent lets you do. Physicker is specifically mentioned as one that there is no chance to do on ITL page 8.

Re: Untalented attempts
 

Agreed. In the specific case David noted, given that there is literally no possibility of them helping the situation; I would let them "bind up the wound" if that's what they wanted to do, but since they have no knowledge of healing, there would be no tangible in-game benefit (they failed to clean the wound properly, or they used a dirty shirt, or they didn't secure the bandage in such a way as to actually help anything, or they inadvertently bound the wound too tightly and are restricting blood flow to the injured area, etc.).

Re: Untalented attempts
 

I agree the RAW say you can't bandage people unless you have Physicker. But it probably isn't very realistic. Even a bad job of bandaging is probably preferable to leaving the wound open, slowly bleeding, perhaps getting worse as muscles around it are used.

I guess one way to look at it is that the default assumes amateur bandaging, and if there's no bandaging for some reason then it really ought to be worse than that, but nobody is mean enough to enforce it.

Re: Untalented attempts
 

ITL 167: "This rule applies only to field surgery; if you get back to civilization, or if you have a Master Physicker in your party, an arrow can be removed without damage. Note that field removal of an arrow isn’t necessary unless it’s enchanted; otherwise, the shaft can be cut short, and the wound bound up until the victim gets back to a Master Physicker."

Re: Untalented attempts
 

Er... well... in GURPS actually I prefer to use a version of the mega-evil detailed multi-wound bleeding rules from Roleplayer & 3e Compendium, where every wound can bleed, and after a big combat there's a whole side-game of "triage the battlefield" and then yes, unskilled people can attempt to help stop bleeding. Also GURPS has a First Aid skill and we sometimes add a Bandaging skill that's even easier.

Re: Untalented attempts
 

Good thing this isn't GURPS, then! ;-)

Re: Untalented attempts
 

A rated lock, say 3dice to pick, is easy, once you know the secret. But the untalented sticking a stiletto in the keyhole should be twice as hard to pick.

If you do only one die, then a 3dice to pick lock becomes a 4 dice to pick lock for amateurs and a 4 dice to pick lock becomes a 5 dice to pick lock. In this case, as the complexity goes up, its only slightly more difficult for the novice to pick it.

The rules on page 40 do say "(or more dice)", but leaves it up to the GM.

I would go with Double.

Re: Untalented attempts
 

Has anyone come up with a list of which Talents might restrict Unskilled usage?

Paraphrase of ITL page 8 describes Unskilled Rolls: You can attempt to do anything unless the Talent specifically says "you can't if you don't have that Talent".
And some Talents state that you can attempt it unskilled but at a specific penalty.
Otherwise its
In general, if a physical action is automatic for one with the talent, it might be attempted, on an appropriate die roll, without the talent. If use of a talent requires a die roll, then unskilled use should either be prohibited entirely or should require extra dice, and failure should have serious consequences.
which usually means roll 4d6 instead of 3d6.


Unskilled Prohibited Talents
like Toughness


Talents specifically mentioning unskilled usage
Like Boating, Horsemanship


What other places in ITL Legacy mention Talent restrictions?


Which Talents do you think prohibit Unskilled usage?

Re: Untalented attempts
 

I think some of the talents already give overly mechanical (and inaccurate) rolls for things that I think a strong GM would and should overrule with discretion and the actual game situation in many cases.

For example, with Brawling, certainly a broken bottle is not as good as a dagger, club-like objects may be obvious to all, or not available, or have penalties compared to an actual club, and some brawlers are easier to de-fuse than others.

Many talents list their abilities as special bonuses, and usually that means no talent no bonus, but usually it seems pretty easy to deduce what not having that bonus means.


Here's what I think about default use of all of the specific talents.

Brawling - as above, and default brawling is just the usual bare hand damage, usually halved in non-lethal brawls per Taking Prisoners rule.

Carousing - you can carouse... but you get none of the Talent abilities.

Weapon talents - roll 4d, or at -4 DX.

Area Knowledge - anyone can know and learn stuff, this is a way to officially indicate high familiarity, and abstract. GM discretion.

Boating - as listed or GM discretion.

Guns - can shoot a loaded and readied gun at 4d or -4 DX. Might need 3/IQ to deduce how, or to be told beforehand. Setting up an arquebus is more complicated. Loading probably even more so, and dangerous.

Horsemanship - as listed.

Literacy - no, as listed.

Mundane Talents - GM discretion.

Quick-Draw: no

Running: you can run, at normal MA, so no.

Seamanship: as listed

Sex Appeal - default use is ordinary reaction role & roleplaying

Swimming - as listed

Thrown Weapons - no/yes - you can throw just without the bonuses

Blowgun - 4d or -4 DX and reduced range.

Trident - 4d or -4 DX.

Bola, Lasso, Net, Whip, Spear Thrower, Nunchucks, Sha Ken - no and/or GM invents ad hoc mishap chances

Boomerang: 4d or -4 DX and does much reduced damage

Cestus: ok but just does +1 punch damage

Acute Hearing - normal hearing rolls and darkness effects

Alertness - normal detection chances - I usually give SOME chance for non-alert people to detect ambushes - and alert people are guaranteed a 3/IQ roll, but what they notice depends on the situation and how well they roll

Animal Handler - yes - extra dice GM discretion based on the animal

Bard - default use is ordinary reaction role & roleplaying

Charisma - default use is ordinary reaction role & roleplaying

Climbing - as listed / GM discretion

Detect Traps - as listed

Diving - no / as listed

Driver - as listed (GM may need to invent driving rules)

Missile Weapons - no, default is normal missile weapon rules

Pickpocket - yes, 6d, 4d with distraction (and I'd likely give the victim a roll to notice)

Priest - GM discretion / roleplaying

Recognize value - as listed

Silent Movement - you can try - GM discretion with this talent as the best you can do - would be good to have default rules for sneaking

Streetwise - as listed & GM discretion & roleplaying

Toughness - no

Acrobatics - as listed

Armorer - no, GM may give clues or allow fine detection at discretion

Business Sense - default is normal reactions & buy/selling. For swindling, note the limits even for one with this talent, and make it harder with GM discretion and/or roleplaying.

Diplomacy - default is normal reaction rolls/modifiers, GM discretion and roleplaying

Mimic - no, GM could allow attempts in some circumstances & use discretion and roelplaying

Naturalist - GM may assess normal spot roles - the talent describes a special ability of the Naturalist to spot creature ambushes.

Poet - no, it describes a level of talent. GM can still roll to see how good/bad each attempt is

Remove Trap - as listed

Weapon & Shield Expertise & Master, Unarmed Combat, 2 Weapons, Fencing - no - use combat system without those benefits

Tracking - GM discretion (probably 6d if even possible except in easy situations)

Architect/Builder - default is normal rolls, as listed

Courtly Graces - default use is ordinary reaction role & roleplaying

Detect Lies - GM discretion, should be notably harder than with this talent

Expert Horsemanship - no

Goldsmith - no

Locksmith - GM discretion as listed

Master Pickpocket - no

Mechanician - mainly no - GM discretion and as listed

Physicker, Vet - no

Shipbuilder - describes a level of skill at an undefined building task - GM discretion

Tactics / Strategist - no - default is normal initiative and guessing

Woodsman - no, as listed

Writing - no, describes a level of ability

Assess Value - no or GM discretion

Captain - no, describes bonuses. You can still try without bonuses and maybe GM ruled consequences

Expert Naturalist - no or GM assessed rolls about guessing creature abilities

Master Armorer - no

Master Locksmith - no

Stealth - GM discretion as to how much worse or whether there's even a chance given the circumstances - again would be good to have actual sneaking rules, but always needs GM discretion due to all the factors that can come in

Ventriloquist - probably no or GM discretion if someone's been "taught" and tries something simple that seems like it might work

Chemist & Alchemist - explicitly say no

Master Mechanician - no

Mathematician - no

Scholar - no, GM discretion per case

Disguise - no - others can do simple disguises, but that's a much simpler thing. GM discretion, where the listed rolls are for a good disguise artist

Master Bard - no

Master Physicker - no

Theologian - no or GM discretion

Re: Untalented attempts
 

Thanks Skarg. I'm just getting a sense of how this works after all these years.

Re: Untalented attempts
 

For lockpicking I use a rule that a character lacking the talent rolls twice as many dice - minimum two dice extra. Which is important because some locks (actual or nominal) in my game really do have a base of 1 die or less.

A character with a "hobby" level of lockpicking (1/4 point) rolls one less die after doubling. Thus for a 3 die lock, an unskilled character rolls 6 dice and and character with only the hobby talent rolls 5 dice.

Now getting back to that "1 die or less,"

1 die (3 dice for the unskilled) is the simplest "real" lock

zero dice (2 dice for the unskilled) is a tricky latch, or a lock that's still tricky to open with the key

-1 (negative one) die is the standard base "lockpicking" roll
for a latched but unlocked closure, or a standard locked closure when you have the key/know the combination. This becomes 1 die for the unskilled and comes into play with such things as "open the lock with your hands tied behind you" or "has the form of an animal, without hands."

-2 dice is an unlatched door, bead curtain, etc.

-3 dice is an open doorway.

For certain other talents (e.g. climbing) I use a similar system. Yet other talents have their own peculiar quirks, like others have noted above.