Mana
 

I have always played this game that ST is used to provide the strength for magic spells and also regulates damage. If you took yourself to 1 ST by spell casting, you were unconscious (Now it would be 0). If you were injured, and cast spells you could again get to 1 and be unconscious again. You could only die (0) because of fatigue if you were injured while your ST was down from fatigue or if you got hit hard enough to do the job.
Since the development of the staff and the quasi-stat mana, I've been tempted to think about another way of doing things. Going ahead and creating a full blown mana stat and separating spell casting from ST, which would be for damage alone. Except under one circumstance, an emergency, you wouldn't cast spells against your ST. If you did, the ST loss for spell casting would be actual damage that couldn't be healed by any means but bed rest.
Don't prepare the boiling oil just yet or start collecting wood for the bonfire. I haven't done this and am not planning on it, just wondering if anyone else has thought about it and if so, what are your thoughts.

Re: Mana
 

My big question is what can you cast from and what is only good for recharge?

I've house ruled on the expansive side to enable lone badass wizards to rough up the PCs, but I doubt it's really supported in the text:

http://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#Magic

Re: Mana
 

I may have not been clear before. Mana, for this approach to work, has got to be a natural force. Wizards and others have learned how to tap into and focus that force to cast spells.
I think it would work like this. At the time of character generation, using a human as an example, you create a wizard with ST 8, DX 14, IQ 10. His mana stat could be determined a number of ways. It could be equal to his ST or his IQ or perhaps be the result of (ST+IQ)/2= mana. Using the example wizard above, his mana stat would be (8+10)/2= 9 mana.
He could use his mana to cast spells. Mana would recover like fatigue, but resting wouldn't be necessary, only the passage of time.
As the wizard gains experience, he would be able to purchase more mana, exactly as he can for his staff. The expended experience points representing the wizards growing expertise with focusing the mana field surrounding him. He would be limited to having only as much mana as he has IQ, or subject to GM determination, you might set the limit at his IQ times two.

Re: Mana
 

I've given some thought to this, and it seems to me that IQ could be used for the Mana stat, just as ST is used for Hit Points and Fatigue. This would make high IQ even more useful to Wizards, of course, and might have some implications for XP expenditures and whatnot that are not immediately self-evident to the casual observer.

Among other things, it might enable you to do away with the concept of "fatigue" entirely. (Assuming you could come up with something more restrictive in terms of encumbrance to allow for the fact that not only is sheer weight and clumsiness of the item being carried an issue, but duration of the time in which it is carried is also -- this could be as simple as restricting the "number" of items carried (besides armor) to a number equal to the character's current ST, though.)

Making IQ equivalent to Mana for Wizards would also enable you to change the way "non-Wizards" do magic in that you could increase the cost to cast spells, rather than the cost in XP to learn them, by either doubling or tripling the cost in Mana points to cast them, or, alternately, saying that a non-Wizard CAN'T use Mana and instead MUST expend ST to cast spells. Of course, if you feel particularly strongly about the dichotomy between Wizards and non-Wizards you could still retain the higher costs to learn Spells as well, but to a large degree that might depend on how common you want magic to be in your campaign.

In short, I think the potential uses for Mana are very great in TFT, and I think you could do it in such a way that it wouldn't layer a ton of extra rules on the game (indeed, might simplify quite a few of them).

Re: Mana
 

Two thoughts along those lines. Substitution of fatigue with mental fatigue, which could be recovered at the same rate, 1 point per 15 minutes. You wouldn't have to be sitting down, but you shouldn't be trying to concentrate on anything hard. Or, having depleted the mana field you can access, you have to give it time to rebuild, again at the accustomed rate of 1 point per 15 minutes.

Oh, the idea of using IQ for the mana stat isn't one I had thought of, but it is as workable as any other.

Re: Mana
 

One of the main issues with having mana based on IQ, is that it totally removes the original balance of Wizard arena character design. i.e. even in original Wizard, ST was the least compelling stat for most wizards, but it definitely had value. Mainly for the amount of spells that the wizard can cast and maintain in one encounter.

New ITL already somewhat undermines that in for experienced wizards who can get Manastaff and invest in it, and planning for that will also somewhat discourage wizards taking ST. It still costs 200 XP per point, though, so it's still a kind of trade-off choice whether to put XP in mana, or put that XP into DX or IQ or spells, or possibly some alternative use of XP.

Back to the main point, if you house rule that mana is based on IQ, then there will be little/no incentive to raise ST, and less incentive to get staff mana. You're increasing the value of what's already the most important thing for wizards to get, IQ. (Also because a high-IQ wizard can get Aided in mana and in DX by apprentices...)

i.e. It adds weight to the already-heaviest thing for wizards to concentrate in.


As for the option to use either mana or bodily ST that does damage, yes I've played many many games that way, as it's the original way of GURPS Magic. I think it's a fairly interesting trade-off, especially if there are no healing spells (...). Of course if you just do it without adjusting other things (e.g. spell costs), you're essentially giving wizards double or more mana than they used to have.


I think this thread also wants mention that many TFT players over the years have house-ruled that while fatigue and damage add towards unconsciousness, the wizard only dies if the actual damage is enough to kill them by itself.

Re: Mana
 

If IQ is mana then dulled senses make the wizard not your best slime spotter.

Re: Mana
 

I'm not sure this actually true. Seems to me that Wizards still need ST because they still take damage. In fact, if they've exhausted their Mana, they are likely to be quite vulnerable until they can "re-charge." Plus, if you read Warhorse11's original comment, you would note that ST can still be used to cast in an emergency situation, only now, instead of being mere "fatigue" it would be actual wounds that must be recovered from normally. In short, I think this view is based on reading the idea and not experimenting with it.

Plus the already existing Mana rule, if extrapolated as I do above, now becomes a core concept instead of an exception to all the other rules. Which actually makes the game easier to understand.

Which I don't actually see as a problem, but rather a feature. After all, ST has now, under the new XP rules, become the primary attribute that warriors will want, with DX topping out fairly early on, depending on the armor they use. IQ is very much a "secondary" attribute for them now, so I don't see the problem of reversing the issue for Wizards.

Though clearly, if you treat ST expended as spell casting energy as wounds, then the issue becomes much more carefully considered than if all ST damage can be healed at 15 minutes per point.


Though, again, if we do away with all the fatigue nonsense, this issue no longer requires extra rules to address.

Re: Mana
 

Life is all about trade-offs, though... Suddenly that Naturalist talent looks more useful to the non-Wizard than it did before.

Re: Mana
 

I may not have experimented with that specific idea, but I have made hundreds of wizard characters, and recently made dozens of competitive arena wizards, and feel I'm pretty qualified to comment on the way it would impact choices for wizard designs. The original situation in Wizard has a nice trade off between the three attributes for 32-point wizards with no other source of mana but ST. If you switch mana to IQ, then ST is much more of a dump stat that it otherwise would be. A 32-point arena wizard point-buying ST rather than DX or IQ-which-is-also-mana to just get some more ability to suffer damage would be a very ineffective tactic.


One of the main reasons I mention things here is to share what I see that I suspect many others won't unless I mention them.

You and I also frequently see TFT very differently, I've noticed, which is interesting and I hope I don't come across as looking for binary arguments. For example, I am quite interested what you mean about your perspective on ST vs DX for warriors with the new XP rules?

Re: Mana
 

Again, I don't actually see that as a problem -- I've actually played with this specific system in the past, and it worked quite well. Without any "dump stat" issues cropping up at all. And indeed, you still DO need ST in order to survive combat. Magic attacks against you (or physical ones, obviously) still do damage in the same old way. An 8 ST Wizard is a very vulnerable wizard, you know... ;-)

You know, once again I'm forced to acknowledge that I don't always express myself well. And if I gave you the impression that I thought your position on these things was "wrong" or anything, I sincerely want to apologize. I realize (and I hope you do too) that you are pointing out issues in my ideas -- just as I do with yours -- and my responses above were intended to try and answer those issues, not in any way attack of belittle your concerns or thoughts!

Another thing; based on HCobb's comment earlier about a Wizard who used too much Mana being a poor slime-spotter -- I should state unequivocally that my answer was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Honestly, I see Mana as a secondary "magical ability attribute" much like fatigue was before, only not as potentially confusing (as fatigue was, given that you had to track two different effects on your ST with all the extra complexity and confusion that that situation often created in the heat of battle). Basically spending Mana would in no way reduce your IQ to some "AdjIQ" number. Rather you would have just so many Mana points to expend before you "ran out of juice" and then had to either refrain from casting spells until you can re-charge, or make the decision that it's necessary to start absorbing actual wounds in order to save the day. Your IQ in itself, however, would remain unaffected. You would still know your talents and spells, speak your languages, and so on, but simply wouldn't have the ability to cast spells anymore (without potentially fatal consequences anyway).

Finally, on the matter of "re-charging" Mana, I would argue that rather than have a Mana point re-charge every 15 minutes, you could either lengthen the time component (1 Mana point per hour, for example), OR you could simply state that no Mana re-charges until, say, Midnight local time -- this would solve the oft-stated objection of Wizards having too much Mana available during the course of the day to use and becoming unstoppable killing machines; once again it becomes a resource management issue instead of an opportunity to skew the game effects. I would also point out that since the effects of AID Spells are transitory, they might not be the panacea that some folks think they would be -- and frankly, I'd rather have the other Wizards in my party making their own attacks rather than AIDing me to make one big attack.

Anyway, I hope you take my comments and responses as an attempt to discuss and address issues that have been raised or ideas that have been proposed, as opposed to an attempt to overbear your (or anyone else's) preferences, concepts, and play style! And, come to think of it, this is all highly hypothetical anyway, since I have no evidence that Steve or anyone else is actually considering revamping the magic system in any way! ;-)

Re: Mana
 

Earlier, I mentioned the idea of mana recovering at the rate of 1 point per 15 minutes, just as fatigue does not, but without the necessity of resting. I suggested that idea as the mechanic is already built into the game. I thought it would simplify the concept and make it less of an issue. And the idea of having mana (or at least the ability to focus and use the mana) being equal to the wizards IQ, but separate from it, seems, on the face of it, to make a great deal of sense.

Re: Mana
 

One other thought, the ST damage brought about by using ST to power spells would be very resistant to any healing efforts. It isn't so much a wound to a specific part of the body, but instead, a generalized weakness to the full body. Draining the life force if you will. Physickers could try, but there's nothing to bandage or stitch up. The same for healers and their spells. No wound to actually heal, just a generalized weakness. The only fix is two days bed rest for each point of damage.

Re: Mana
 

I've been reticent to jump in on this thread because suggestions to alter the balance of the 'holy trinity' makes my eye twitch, but I'm am definitely in agreement on this statement. The power to cast spells comes from the wizard's life force. In TFT, that is represented by ST, not IQ. Physicking is great for repairing wounds but it cannot replace life force.

For me, Mana is simply what ST is called when it exists outside of the wizard; in a staff, powerstone, or even distilled into a potion (new idea?).

Re: Mana
 

Remove ability of healing potions to cure fatigue?

Re: Mana
 

Why not? You would just need to establish the existence of Mana potions (and rules for creating them) to compensate for that change. This doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me.

Re: Mana
 

Sticking with the continuity of this thread, it was earlier postulated that using this idea, a wizard would use mana to cast his spells. Once he had depleted the available mana, he could, under duress, use his ST to cast spells. The reduction in ST would be damage to him, not fatigue. So, in this case, no healing of that type of generalized damage, except by bed rest.

Re: Mana
 

I don't need ST to survive combat, if I avoid getting hurt, which is usually a major part of my strategy even when I'm a fighter, let alone a wizard.

Of course, you are correct that having more ST is better than having less ST, and that you certainly don't want your wizards to get wounded even if it didn't reduce their mana.

And it sounds like maybe you mean by not seeing it as a problem, that you can play a game with house rules like that and still have it be enjoyable and fun and have some players not notice that the balance has shifted a lot from the original game. If so, sure, I agree. TFT can be modded a lot before it becomes a problem if the bar is being not fun or severely obviously broken.

However it sounds like maybe I was mistaken to think you were disagreeing with what I meant to say. Which was, that this change greatly alters the balance of value of attributes for wizards, since ST no longer would determine mana, and wounds would no longer reduce their pool of available mana (unless using the part where you can opt to actually wound yourself to cast spells, but still it's a much reduced effect compared to original TFT).

Although a ST 8 wizard is quite vulnerable to attacks, so is any 32-point wizard standing where he can be attacked, especially (in original TFT, but much less so if mana comes from IQ) if he casts spells or if he needs to be able to cast more spells to survive an encounter.

All things being equal and TFT being a point-buy game, if you base mana on IQ, I'd say that pretty much any 32-point arena wizard design would be less effective than one who shifted points from ST to DX or IQ, because extra points in ST would just help you take wounds a little bit (even raising DX and then reducing it with cloth or leather armor would seem almost always a better choice than raising ST in that case).


Thanks for writing so. Yes, I've often felt that I or others have written points that were very insightful and valuable, and you've simply commented that you don't see it as a problem, which I've often read as meaning you think they were wrong about what they said. If instead you meant that while they had a good point from their perspective, that there's plenty of room for other players to enjoy the game without ever noticing the issues they mentioned, then I'm sorry to have mis-read your intent many times.


As a side-note, I've played another GM's (house-rule GURPS psionics) system whose spell-equivalents did cause mental fatigue which reduced your adjIQ that way, which was a pretty interesting and unusual mechanic, but certainly a house rule that has a big impact on play.

Re: Mana
 

I'd sort of forgotten that healing potions could do that. It's almost always such a huge waste to do so unless you are both unwounded and desperately need to recover some fatigue immediately.

Re: Mana
 

This!

And there are a lot of other elements that would need to be addressed if you alter this core design assumption. How would the Aid spell work? Would Confusion reduce the wizard's available mana? Do we need new spells to target or defend one's mana reserve? What happens when mana hits zero? Will the use of XP to increase IQ automatically increase mana and if so, wouldn't the implied 40-point stat cap limit the wizard’s power potential?

Like I said... eye twitching.
;)

Re: Mana
 

[QUOTE=Skarg;2236844]All things being equal and TFT being a point-buy game, if you base mana on IQ, I'd say that pretty much any 32-point arena wizard design would be less effective than one who shifted points from ST to DX or IQ, because extra points in ST would just help you take wounds a little bit (even raising DX and then reducing it with cloth or leather armor would seem almost always a better choice than raising ST in that case)./QUOTE]

If I might stick my oar in here, I think there might be a misconception here. I think what JLV was trying to say and what I understood was that mana and IQ are only linked in this scheme in that one's mana is limited to being equal to the wizard's IQ. It is completely separate from IQ except that one's IQ represents the wizard's ability to focus mana for spell casting.

Just trying to clarify. Excuse me, I'll let myself out now.

Re: Mana
 

How would the Aid spell work? Just like normal except you're using mana to power it.

Would Confusion reduce the wizard's available mana? No, no more than it would reduce his ST, which it doesn't. It could still affect his spell casting by altering his IQ if I remember correctly. Perhaps I've been "Confused"

Do we need new spells to target or defend one's mana reserve? Depends on whether you want to or not.

What happens when mana hits zero? Same thing, minus passing out, that happens when ST hits 0. You're done casting spells unless you have a staff, a powerstone or decide to bite the bullet and start using your ST and taking damage from casting. In short, what you have to do now when ST is close to 0. Find a spot and rest and refit or pull out of the dungeon and go home.

Will the use of XP to increase IQ automatically increase mana and if so, wouldn't the implied 40-point stat cap limit the wizard’s power potential? No more or less than the cap affects your ST, DX, and IQ.

Its ok if your eyes twitch, just watch out for your blood pressure.

Re: Mana
 

OK, so I obviously need to come up with tougher questions next time.
;)

My point, however, is the whether you source the Mana stat from ST or IQ, I think you would have to look at every instance in the rules where either of those is referenced and assess the potential impacts to the balance of the game from removing or altering those dependencies.

Re: Mana
 

That's part of the benefit of this little exchange. Multiple heads looking at the same problem from different viewpoints cover a lot more ground than one person coming from one viewpoint.

Re: Mana
 

Generally, when I say something like that, what I'm saying is that there are plenty of ways to skin the cat, and what someone points out as a major "problem" area is often just an opinion of one of those ways. Plus, honestly, a lot of those problem areas could be managed better by simply writing a better house rule than the one under discussion. I don't believe that I've EVER said that anyone was "wrong" about anything. For one thing, I'm not the game designer and lack any moral authority to do so; and for another, to my mind the real question is "is it fun?" much more than it is "is it precisely the way the rules state something?"

I also find that TFT is an enormously forgiving system, when it comes to things like play-balance and the like. You can do things with the system that were never envisaged by the author and still find the basic system functions extremely well, and doesn't tragically alter the game's innate playability and excellence. To my mind, that's one of the hallmarks of truly great game design! ;-)

Re: Mana
 

[QUOTE=warhorse11h;2236861]Your absolutely correct Warhorse!

Re: Mana
 

I'm still using the house rules I used in the old days. I don't like the new staff rules and don't use those either.

What I do use is this. Wizards primarily cast spells using mana, not ST. Mana equals IQ, but is a separate stat and declines in mana don't affect IQ. Mana is recovered 1 point per 15 minutes. A wizard can cast spells from ST, but this is real damage. So in a true emergency the wizard can dig deep and cast from ST, but it really hurts.

This is just a data point on what works for me. YMMV.

Re: Mana
 

Did you ever post that, anywhere? I know that I have seen this very idea on the internet before. That's where I first saw it. I think it was on the TFT wiki or the Fantasy Trip webring. If so, please excuse me for appropriating your idea.

Re: Mana
 

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...na#post2203484

Post #54 in linked thread. Don't sweat it! Great minds think alike.