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-   -   Melee Weapon Skills (Confusion In reguards to Ruling) (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=161354)

Dejavroom 12-31-2018 12:30 PM
Melee Weapon Skills (Confusion In reguards to Ruling)
 
A player of mine wishes to take Rapiers as her primary weapon to use.

What skill does she take? Is the skill she takes "Fencing weapons" Or Rapier in particular?

And if it is Rapier in particular, Does she take the default stated on P208 Where "Fencing weapons" are -3 from their parent stat? Or Default:Broadsword-4

I'm personally really confused and would appreciate someone shedding light on how this works. As I can't seem to wrap my head around it in any way, shape or form.

EDIT: I've figured out ranged weapons, Specifically guns. I understand that you have to specialise in one gun type, and that they are all DX-4. However I can't wrap this logic around Melee weapons.

johndallman 12-31-2018 12:58 PM
Re: Melee Weapon Skills (Confusion In reguards to Ruling)
 
There is no "Fencing Weapons" skill in GURPS rules-as-written. There is a category of weapons called "Fencing Weapons" and a category of melee weapon skills, also called "Fencing Weapons". These categories exist because the weapons and skills within them use similar rules.

Rapier is a skill, which is DX/A. If a character puts four points into it, they have it at DX+1. They also have the other three fencing weapons skills at Rapier-3, which comes out to DX-2.

If the same character also has four points in Broadsword skill, making DX+1, they have a Rapier default from that of Broadsword-4, which is DX-3. That's much worse than the skill level they bought in Rapier, and should be ignored.

Dejavroom 12-31-2018 02:31 PM
Re: Melee Weapon Skills (Confusion In reguards to Ruling)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman (Post 2232303)
There is no "Fencing Weapons" skill in GURPS rules-as-written. There is a category of weapons called "Fencing Weapons" and a category of melee weapon skills, also called "Fencing Weapons". These categories exist because the weapons and skills within them use similar rules.

Rapier is a skill, which is DX/A. If a character puts four points into it, they have it at DX+1. They also have the other three fencing weapons skills at Rapier-3, which comes out to DX-2.

If the same character also has four points in Broadsword skill, making DX+1, they have a Rapier default from that of Broadsword-4, which is DX-3. That's much worse than the skill level they bought in Rapier, and should be ignored.

I'm sorry, I still don't really understand. Why does rapier have a broadsword -4 default? What context is that used in?

Is that to say if someone had Broadsword 15, They'd also be able to use rapiers at Skill level 11? Is that correct?

But if you just took Rapier as a skill, It'd have the fencing weapon default of -3?

johndallman 12-31-2018 03:07 PM
Re: Melee Weapon Skills (Confusion In reguards to Ruling)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dejavroom (Post 2232347)
Is that to say if someone had Broadsword 15, They'd also be able to use rapiers at Skill level 11? Is that correct?
Exactly so.
Quote:
But if you just took Rapier as a skill, It'd have the fencing weapon default of -3?
Defaults are about trying to do things that you don't have the right skill for.

Bill has Broadsword skill at 15, so he rolls against 15 when using a broadsword. If he doesn't have a broadsword available, he can use a rapier, at skill 11, or a sabre, also at skill 11. Those skills default to Broadsword-4, which is why he can use them at 11. The other fencing weapons, main-gauche and smallsword, don't have defaults to Broadsword, so Bill has to use his DX-based default, which will almost certainly be worse.

Rachel has Rapier skill at 15. She rolls against 15 when using a rapier. If she tries to use any other kind of fencing weapon, those all default to Rapier-3, so she uses them at 12 - they have more in common with using a rapier that a broadsword does with a rapier. That's the only place where the "fencing weapon default of -3" applies. She can also use a broadsword at Rapier-4, which is 11.

Does that make more sense?

DouglasCole 12-31-2018 03:33 PM
Re: Melee Weapon Skills (Confusion In reguards to Ruling)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dejavroom (Post 2232347)
I'm sorry, I still don't really understand. Why does rapier have a broadsword -4 default? What context is that used in?

Is that to say if someone had Broadsword 15, They'd also be able to use rapiers at Skill level 11? Is that correct?

But if you just took Rapier as a skill, It'd have the fencing weapon default of -3?
The best way to phrase the last one is "other Fencing weapons default from Rapier at -3."

I believe the other fencing sword skills are Smallsword and Saber.

Dejavroom 12-31-2018 03:48 PM
Re: Melee Weapon Skills (Confusion In reguards to Ruling)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman (Post 2232366)
Exactly so.

Defaults are about trying to do things that you don't have the right skill for.

Bill has Broadsword skill at 15, so he rolls against 15 when using a broadsword. If he doesn't have a broadsword available, he can use a rapier, at skill 11, or a sabre, also at skill 11. Those skills default to Broadsword-4, which is why he can use them at 11. The other fencing weapons, main-gauche and smallsword, don't have defaults to Broadsword, so Bill has to use his DX-based default, which will almost certainly be worse.

Rachel has Rapier skill at 15. She rolls against 15 when using a rapier. If she tries to use any other kind of fencing weapon, those all default to Rapier-3, so she uses them at 12 - they have more in common with using a rapier that a broadsword does with a rapier. That's the only place where the "fencing weapon default of -3" applies. She can also use a broadsword at Rapier-4, which is 11.

Does that make more sense?
That makes perfect sense, Thank you for your example

evileeyore 12-31-2018 05:10 PM
Re: Melee Weapon Skills (Confusion In reguards to Ruling)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole (Post 2232370)
I believe the other fencing sword skills are Smallsword and Saber.
*cough*main-gauche*cough*

Dalillama 12-31-2018 05:16 PM
Re: Melee Weapon Skills (Confusion In reguards to Ruling)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2232382)
*cough*main-gauche*cough*
Is not a sword.

Phantasm 12-31-2018 05:18 PM
Re: Melee Weapon Skills (Confusion In reguards to Ruling)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2232382)
*cough*main-gauche*cough*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalillama (Post 2232384)
Is not a sword.
But is listed as a Fencing skill/weapon.

Besides, Knife is listed as a "Sword" skill . . . .

DouglasCole 12-31-2018 07:27 PM
Re: Melee Weapon Skills (Confusion In reguards to Ruling)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantasm (Post 2232385)
But is listed as a Fencing skill/weapon.

Besides, Knife is listed as a "Sword" skill . . . .
Yah, I just missed it.


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